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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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I see a chance we could get away with not answering Riona's question about our origins at all.

She wants the cleansing, so if we go on a tangent about Clear Seeds (explaining they're a stopgap measure), creating better cleansing measures through jolly cooperation, etc., etc...

Mind, Rionna might catch us an reask her question. :p Also, I do want to ask what she sees in us with her powers, so... whatever.

Redshirt Army said:
[ ] Working to share cleansing is essentially your primary goal at the moment.
-[ ] Briefly explain what Clear Seeds are... and your dissatisfaction with them as a long term solution, given their use still relies on dumping grief into souls.
--[ ] You've looked into alternatives, but so far nothing promising.
-[ ] With your unique power, you're hoping dewitching might be possible. It's a secondary goal, at the moment.
--[ ] Show Hildegarde and Aurora, explain what you did. Ask for her professional opinion as a soul manipulator. Emphasize that you know dewitching studies need to be done slowly and carefully.

[ ] As long as she stays in the area, and doesn't shit stir, you'll provide free cleansing. Explain your offer to refugees and sharing of Clear Seeds with trusted groups for free.
-[ ] If you trusted her not to abuse it, you'd give her a Clear Seed, too. Drawing your ire is a bigger deterrent in Japan than it is in Scotland, though. Can you trust her?

[ ] Ask if she's willing to help with your goals. The help of a soul manipulator would be very helpful for obvious reasons. Negotiate payment, if necessary.
-[ ] If she's unwilling to stay long term, share that you have a power copier on staff. Offer to compensate her for a copy of her power and some instruction for Sayaka on how to use it.
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[] Response for:
--[] Soul stealing? and Making an example?
--[] You'll want to ask about that in a moment.

[] Talk about Cleansing:
-[] Explain Clear Seeds: a stopgap measure. Show Hildegarde and Aurora, explain their development and your 'happy magic' experiments. Ask for Riona's insight.
-[] Explain the need for a better, more moral solution.
--[] Share hopes for de-Witching, and that she could help with it.

[] Talk about Adfligo Systema.
-[] Your hopes to make the world a better place, spread cleansing, create a support network for Magical Girls...
-[] You understand Magical Girls have been forced to do awful things, but with free cleansing? Your hoping to set standards.
-[] Ask Riona to elaborate on her comments about 'soul stealing' and 'making examples'.


I think we need to address these... comments. Maybe Riona helped the world by getting rid of some specially awful meguca, with methods we can't criticize having been used. But now that we're here, trying to make things better? We need standards, we can't let it go if someone would go around stealing people's souls, even if they only stole bad people's souls.

Nevermind that those bad people are troubled teens. We put Anri in prison and are hoping to help her, rather than just contain and punish her, same should go for everyone else.
 
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Muramasa said:
Why not just answer the question?
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Firn did leave us a choice to make.

[] Response for:
- [] Soul stealing?
- [] Making an example?
[] Do you consider her trustworthy enough to proceed with the explanations?
- [] Vote in abeyance
- [] If not, then what?
[] Write-in (word count limit: 150 words)
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These comments about stealing soul and such, that popped up, how do we address them?

Then, do we trust Riona with our hypothesis about being a wish construct, a dewitched witch, etc., or do we refuse to answer?

These comments are worrying, and things we need to ask about, at least, before revealing anything.

Also, since Riona brough up that what she wants is our powers... I think we can talk about it? She doesn't need our powers to get cleansing after all, we do have Clear Seeds.
 
I propose that we maybe keep quiet (in general, not sure what to do right now, though we've got Word of Firn that this is not Hijiri, so) about being able to read Witch names in Soul Gems. I mean when speaking with people who've been bombed. It'll come up at some point, but since we use it as an ID measure, even past the Witchbomb it's probably something to keep on the down low?
 
Skelm said:
That's not really true. We have to trust her to handle Clear Seeds and help with dewitching, but we don't need to trust her with information outside that scope, especially when that information is owned by someone else.
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Just so. We may be forced to deal with her as a 'contractor' for now. And that is fine.
She came to us to get something. That is our power.
We need to use our negotiating power. Stop being goofball!Sabrina, and start using what Granny Kaname taught us.

For Rionna, self interest is a proper bargaining position. She will talk about that. We should Insist that she talk about her future and past now.

Starting with the clear seed is probably wrong. We want to put the Clear Seed out of business. Even if we give her one later, we don't want that to be the standard. Clear Seeds will go away once we can de-witch.

Independent cleansing magic - for all - is our agenda. Don't talk to her like a revolutionary, talk to her as a businesswoman with moral goals. Solving this ends the dark ages. There will be a variety of better futures once Magical Girls don't die like stock animals.

[X] opening topic is artificial Grief seeds. We want her help.

We don't know what her larger aims are.

[X] Ask Rionna to list her goals. How old is Rionna? Personal history?
-[X] insist on talking about her self interest.
-[X] understand she might not be philanthropic, and still be good.
-[X] Observe if she is actually different than above, interview in that subject more.

[X] Talk about what she has to trade - how her powers work. What she does in her city.
-[X] Soul Stealing? Beyond yanking their gems, what does that mean?
[X] Other points: we are the good person we want to be. Tell us about our soul as she sees it. Meet our friends, and find out. How does her telepathy work?

[X] De-witching might come up now.
[X] Go over points of agreement again.
[X] Show off Aurora. Happy details. Ask for visual summary.
-[X] We should hunt together, make another, she can watch.

Edit:

It just occurred to me -
Firnagzen said:
Rionna sighs, taking another long pull from her flask. "Yerra, y' can't help me at all, can you? Y' can't exactly give me your magic, I doubt you're willing to give me your Soul, and I wager I'd have a fight on m' hands if I tried to take it."
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Rionna has no understanding of "working together for a goal" ATM. She just calls that impossible, and goes on to the next choice. Her options for her own success all had her as the only party, the only "help" she can imagine is getting or taking an equipped item for her own use.
We would have to teach her how to trust. Ouch. Firnnnnnnn.....
 
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Onmur said:
Now, if this is just Riona... and if we get to the part about sharing hypothesis, what should we explain, if we decide to trust her? That we're probably a de-Witched Walpurgisnacht as part of a Wish to make the world better, which leads us to find unique chances to help people, sometimes in the nick of time?
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Absolutely no mention of a Wish. That's still dangerous information. Hinting that we suspect that we might have somehow been created by magic is probably okay.


Muramasa said:
Why not just answer the question?
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Because if Riona says anything about us being created by a Wish outside a privacy field, either maliciously or negligently, Kyubey will know. And Kyubey, who was present for every Wish ever made, will know that no such wish was made in this timeline and that there's only one person with the potential to do so. From there he can figure out entirely too much that we've got to great effort to keep him from knowing.

I'm not prepared to entrust that information to a person that we just me five minutes ago.
 
I'll throw this in, for now, but I'm not gonna have time to look at votes maybe for a while, so it's just my idea of what to do for now. Will probably change my mind in some way, later on.

I really, really, really need a clarification on what Riona means by taking Souls and by making examples out of meguca.

- mumigriefhugs
- Mention clear seeds
- Explain dewitching and general helping plans.
- Address Riona's comments:
-- Get a full explanation.
-- Can't blame a meguca for actions in the past, but expect humane behavior in the future, with our help.
- Whether we trust Riona enough to answer her question, we'll decide based on her explanation.

[X] Ongoing: Keep in contact with Mami via Grief

[X] Explain briefly:
-[X] Plans to spread free cleansing, touching on Clear Seeds (stopgap measure), and hopeful research for a more moral solution. Don't show the Seeds yet.
-[X] Hopes for De-Witching.
-[X] Plans to create a support network for Magical Girls.

[X] All that said: Response for: 'Soul stealing', 'Making an example'.
-[X] Ask Riona to elaborate, get a thorough answer.
-[X] You can't fault Magical Girls for actions past, but moving forward? Different story.

[X] Do you consider her trustworthy enough to proceed with the explanations?
-[X] Admit you're scared of what people will do with the power you give them.
-[X] You'll only answer Riona's question if she can promise to treat others humanely, even the awful ones.
--[X] If necessary, she can forward the worst cases to us.
 
The Narrator said:
Because if Riona says anything about us being created by a Wish outside a privacy field, either maliciously or negligently, Kyubey will know. And Kyubey, who was present for every Wish ever made, will know that no such wish was made in this timeline and that there's only one person with the potential to do so.
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Well that's not exactly true, is it? A Wish that creates a person can be made without having the massive potential Madoka has. Niko did it, after all.
 
I don't think that I'm particularly against Riona's policy regarding grief spreaders. A girl that survives and continues using her power long enough to attract Riona's attention as a grief spreader will have seen someone witch out and continued to use her power despite that. Riona is not us. She made the best decision she had, and that was likely to end the grief controller's rampage. She wouldn't cause them to witch out because that wouldn't be publishable and wouldn't suffice as an example. Anything else she could do wouldn't be worse than causing them to witch out.

I'll put up a vote in a bit.
 
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Jakobstj said:
Well that's not exactly true, is it? A Wish that creates a person can be made without having the massive potential Madoka has. Niko did it, after all.
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Fair enough. Magic pretty clearly doesn't follow conservation laws perfectly; it might be the case that Wishing for a person who can themselves make a Wish can bootstrap up enough power to pull something like this.
 
Jakobstj said:
Well that's not exactly true, is it? A Wish that creates a person can be made without having the massive potential Madoka has. Niko did it, after all.
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A Wish that creates a person, yes. But Kyubey probably knows who all those people are, because he was there for all those wishes, and we're not one of them.

A Wish that creates a person who can have an utterly unprecedented power like this one and weird karmic potential levels and full knowledge of the system? And pops up right in front of Madoka? That's gonna raise some eyebrows.
 
The Narrator said:
Absolutely no mention of a Wish. That's still dangerous information. Hinting that we suspect that we might have somehow been created by magic is probably okay.



Because if Riona says anything about us being created by a Wish outside a privacy field, either maliciously or negligently, Kyubey will know. And Kyubey, who was present for every Wish ever made, will know that no such wish was made in this timeline and that there's only one person with the potential to do so. From there he can figure out entirely too much that we've got to great effort to keep him from knowing.

I'm not prepared to entrust that information to a person that we just me five minutes ago.
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Just so. We don't need to complete the explanation of Sabrina in an academic sense. Tell Rionna the demonstrable truth that matters to her - We. Are. A. Good. Person. However that happened, it's the answer to her need to be safe.
Our safety is keeping some info from Kyuubey, and she can demonstrate her need to know. For right now, she doesn't need to know. Explain that the Incubators might just be spying on us all the time, and keeping a secret is a whole lot of work. I think she will find a middle ground this way.

Dantalion said:
My thought is rather the opposite - she steals souls, presumably from soul gems. Witches can be seen as mad souls with unbound magic.
She's not got an army of zombies... she's got an army of mind-controlled (presumably) somewhat-nerfed witches.
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OOooo neat. Edinburgh, Capital of the Dead.
She might also steal Soul Gems whole, and then freely use the magic of the unlucky donor? THAT would give her a big buffer space from the neighbors.
Onmur said:
I really, really, really need a clarification on what Riona means by taking Souls and by making examples out of meguca.
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Pretty obvious in a Tatsunoko Pro setting? What is her Transformed appearance, anyway..... (/jk)
 
[X] Ongoing: Keep in contact with Mami via Grief

[x] Regarding soul stealing:
-[x] Ask for details. What conditions do the souls experience? Better than a Grief Seed? Can she put the souls back in their body?
-[x] If yes, you're tentatively in favor of it as a last-ditch medical or protective measure. Might be better than something like the Freezer.

[x] Show her a clear seed.
-[x] Your roadblocks right now are communication and figuring out how to actually fix what is broken.
-[x] Would her "soul stealing" power help you relocate a soul to a more therapeutic environment?

[x] Regarding grief spreaders and "making an example":
-[x] You're not going to ask for details. Is it better or worse than witching out?
-[x] If worse: break to voting.
-[x] You can tolerate it as a least bad decision... which it may have been before you came along.
-[x] If she finds any more grief spreaders, she calls you and you will help her put a stop to it in a more productive fashion. You should even be able to save her the cost of plane tickets.
-[x] Acceptable?

[] If the conversation hasn't derailed yet... yes, you think you can trust her to work together with you. Explain the rest:
-[] Plans to spread free cleansing. Clear Seeds are a stopgap, one of your research goals is a more moral solution.
-[] Hopes for De-Witching.
-[] Plans to create a support network for Magical Girls.
-[] What you've accomplished so far with emotion-enchanted Grief.
-[] You have another research-minded ally. Would Riona be willing to meet with her?
 
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[X] Topic is artificial Grief seeds. Explain why.
-[X] We want her help.

[X] She gave us a generic answer before. Not enough. We need to know her.

-[X] Ask Rionna to list her goals. How old is Rionna? Personal history?
-[X] Don't follow up about sister
-[X] insist on talking about her self interest.
-[X] understand she might not be philanthropic, and still be good.
-[X] Observe if she is actually different than above, interview in that subject more.

[X] Talk about what she has to trade - how her powers work. What she does in her city.

[X] Rionna is speaking like she hasn't trusted anyone in a long time.
-[X] Explain our real magic is about working together. We will show her.

[X] Other points: we are the good person we want to be. Describe our soul. Meet our friends, and find out. How does her telepathy work?

[X] De-witching might come up now.
[X] Go over points of agreement again.
[X] Show off Aurora. Happy details. Ask for visual summary.
-[X] We should hunt together, make another, she can watch.


Firnagzen said:
Rionna sighs, taking another long pull from her flask. "Yerra, y' can't help me at all, can you? Y' can't exactly give me your magic, I doubt you're willing to give me your Soul, and I wager I'd have a fight on m' hands if I tried to take it."
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Rionna has no understanding of "working together for a goal" ATM. She just calls that impossible, and goes on to the next choice. Her options for her own success all had her as the only party.
It would fall to us if we want to show her how to trust enough to work together. When was the last time she trusted someone?
HeroCycle said:
Just so. We may be forced to deal with her as a 'contractor' for now. And that is fine.
She came to us to get something. That is our power.
We need to use our negotiating power. Stop being goofball!Sabrina, and start using what Granny Kaname taught us.

For Rionna, self interest is a proper bargaining position. She will talk about that. We should Insist that she talk about her future and past now.

Starting with the clear seed is probably wrong. We want to put the Clear Seed out of business. Even if we give her one later, we don't want that to be the standard. Clear Seeds will go away once we can de-witch.

Independent cleansing magic - for all - is our agenda. Don't talk to her like a revolutionary, talk to her as a businesswoman with moral goals. Solving this ends the dark ages. There will be a variety of better futures once Magical Girls don't die like stock animals.

[X] opening topic is artificial Grief seeds. We want her help.

We don't know what her larger aims are.

[X] Ask Rionna to list her goals. How old is Rionna? Personal history?
-[X] insist on talking about her self interest.
-[X] understand she might not be philanthropic, and still be good.
-[X] Observe if she is actually different than above, interview in that subject more.

[X] Talk about what she has to trade - how her powers work. What she does in her city.
-[X] Soul Stealing? Beyond yanking their gems, what does that mean?
[X] Other points: we are the good person we want to be. Tell us about our soul as she sees it. Meet our friends, and find out. How does her telepathy work?

[X] De-witching might come up now.
[X] Go over points of agreement again.
[X] Show off Aurora. Happy details. Ask for visual summary.
-[X] We should hunt together, make another, she can watch.

Edit:

It just occurred to me -
Rionna has no understanding of "working together for a goal" ATM. She just calls that impossible, and goes on to the next choice. Her options for her own success all had her as the only party, the only "help" she can imagine is getting or taking an equipped item for her own use.
We would have to teach her how to trust. Ouch. Firnnnnnnn.....
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@Vebyast Interesting. -[] Would her "soul stealing" power help you relocate a soul to a more therapeutic environment?
 
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Tally.
Edit: ok, so I was right to be confused by everyone voting for Redshirt.
Adhoc vote count started by LendvaV on Jul 27, 2018 at 6:14 AM, finished with 141622 posts and 6 votes.
  • [X] Ongoing: Keep in contact with Mami via Grief
    [x] Regarding soul stealing:
    -[x] Ask for details. What conditions do the souls experience? Better than a Grief Seed? Can she put the souls back in their body?
    -[x] If yes, you're tentatively in favor of it as a last-ditch medical or protective measure. Might be better than something like the Freezer.
    [x] Show her a clear seed.
    -[x] Your roadblocks right now are communication and figuring out how to actually fix what is broken.
    -[x] Would her "soul stealing" power help you relocate a soul to a more therapeutic environment?
    [x] Regarding grief spreaders and "making an example":
    -[x] You're not going to ask for details. Is it better or worse than witching out?
    -[x] If worse: break to voting.
    -[x] You can tolerate it as a least bad decision... which it may have been before you came along.
    -[x] If she finds any more grief spreaders, she calls you and you will help her put a stop to it in a more productive fashion. You should even be able to save her the cost of plane tickets.
    -[x] Acceptable?
    [x] I'd love to be able to give people my powers, but the best I've got so far is clear seeds, and since I'm also working on de-witching, that's a stopgap at best.
    [x] Redshirt Army
    -[x] Honestly, Answer her questions
    [x] Redshirt Army
    [X] Topic is artificial Grief seeds. Explain why.
    -[X] We want her help.
    [X] She gave us a generic answer before. Not enough. We need to know her.
    -[X] Ask Rionna to list her goals. How old is Rionna? Personal history?
    -[X] Don't follow up about sister
    -[X] insist on talking about her self interest.
    -[X] understand she might not be philanthropic, and still be good.
    -[X] Observe if she is actually different than above, interview in that subject more.
    [X] Talk about what she has to trade - how her powers work. What she does in her city.
    [X] Rionna is speaking like she hasn't trusted anyone in a long time.
    -[X] Explain our real magic is about working together. We will show her.
    [X] Other points: we are the good person we want to be. Describe our soul. Meet our friends, and find out. How does her telepathy work?
    [X] De-witching might come up now.
    [X] Go over points of agreement again.
    [X] Show off Aurora. Happy details. Ask for visual summary.
    -[X] We should hunt together, make another, she can watch.
Click to expand...
 
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Vebyast said:
[X] Ongoing: Keep in contact with Mami via Grief

[x] Regarding soul stealing:
-[x] Ask for details. What conditions do the souls experience? Better than a Grief Seed? Can she put the souls back in their body?
-[x] If yes, you're tentatively in favor of it as a last-ditch medical or protective measure. Might be better than something like the Freezer.

[x] Show her a clear seed.
-[x] Your roadblocks right now are communication and figuring out how to actually fix what is broken.
-[x] Would her "soul stealing" power help you relocate a soul to a more therapeutic environment?

[x] Regarding grief spreaders and "making an example":
-[x] You're not going to ask for details. Is it better or worse than witching out?
-[x] If worse: break to voting.
-[x] You can tolerate it as a least bad decision... which it may have been before you came along.
-[x] If she finds any more grief spreaders, she calls you and you will help her put a stop to it in a more productive fashion. You should even be able to save her the cost of plane tickets.
-[x] Acceptable?

[] If the conversation hasn't derailed yet... yes, you think you can trust her to work together with you. Explain the rest:
-[] Plans to spread free cleansing. Clear Seeds are a stopgap, one of your research goals is a more moral solution.
-[] Hopes for De-Witching.
-[] Plans to create a support network for Magical Girls.
-[] What you've accomplished so far with emotion-enchanted Grief.
-[] You have another research-minded ally. Would Riona be willing to meet with her?
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Regarding Riona's comments about Soul Stealing and example making, I don't think this is meaningfully different from what I put up. I got a brief moment to comment and don't know when I'll get another, so I'll forward my vote for now.

[X] veByast

If Riona's answers are good/she accepts to treat gucas humanely/forward awful cases to us/release imprisoned souls/whatever is needed depending on details, we do need to consider whether we're gonna trust her with our hypothesis.

How would she react to "I think I was a Witch of Walp class of higher and someone turned me into a human in a way I would be able to help others; not only that, but I'm certain events have conspired so I could help people sometimes"? (Which would be ommiting quite a few details)

Do we need to omit more details? Add more details? Make up misleading details?

We might end up leaving this decision for next vote, so we can make it after hearing Riona's justifications.
 
Vebyast said:
[X] Ongoing: Keep in contact with Mami via Grief

[x] Regarding soul stealing:
-[x] Ask for details. What conditions do the souls experience? Better than a Grief Seed? Can she put the souls back in their body?
-[x] If yes, you're tentatively in favor of it as a last-ditch medical or protective measure. Might be better than something like the Freezer.

[x] Show her a clear seed.
-[x] Your roadblocks right now are communication and figuring out how to actually fix what is broken.
-[x] Would her "soul stealing" power help you relocate a soul to a more therapeutic environment?

[x] Regarding grief spreaders and "making an example":
-[x] You're not going to ask for details. Is it better or worse than witching out?
-[x] If worse: break to voting.
-[x] You can tolerate it as a least bad decision... which it may have been before you came along.
-[x] If she finds any more grief spreaders, she calls you and you will help her put a stop to it in a more productive fashion. You should even be able to save her the cost of plane tickets.
-[x] Acceptable?

[] If the conversation hasn't derailed yet... yes, you think you can trust her to work together with you. Explain the rest:
-[] Plans to spread free cleansing. Clear Seeds are a stopgap, one of your research goals is a more moral solution.
-[] Hopes for De-Witching.
-[] Plans to create a support network for Magical Girls.
-[] What you've accomplished so far with emotion-enchanted Grief.
-[] You have another research-minded ally. Would Riona be willing to meet with her?
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I feel like showing the clear seed will very quickly shift the conversation towards them, their creation and distribution, the happy magic, and dewitching. That should happen after our reactions to her recent remarks. Specifically, we should ask about the "making an example" first, since we're still on that topic. Then go back to what we left "aside for now until (we) process it", and finally move on to a new topic.
 
Vebyast said:
Can she put the souls back in their body?
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I think this should be "back in their gem", unless we're intending to ask if she can uncontract people?

Vebyast said:
[x] Show her a clear seed.
-[x] Your roadblocks right now are communication and figuring out how to actually fix what is broken.
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This vote segment is too abbreviated. As is we jump straight to dewitching, except the vote doesn't even specify that. It comes off as disjointed.

I also think that starting with this isn't a great idea. We should address either Riona's questions from the update before last, or her stated desire for freedom from grief from this update, before we start dewitching discussions.
 
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I think Rionna is being entirely literal - and not particularly magical - about the idea of stealing souls. They are physical grabbable rocks, after all. By stealing a soul she might well mean yanking your gem and sticking it in a box until you witch, then eating you to cleanse herself before tossing you to Kyubey.
 
rkyeun said:
By stealing a soul she might well mean yanking your gem and sticking it in a box until you witch, then eating you to cleanse herself before tossing you to Kyubey.
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Actually, I wonder how good a clean soul gem would be in comparison to a grief seed for cleansing. Can they absorb the same amount of grief before witching as a grief seed does before re-hatching? Obviously this is something that should never be tested, but I'm still curious.
 
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