- Location
- Illinois
Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
- Thread starter Firnagzen
- Start date
-
- Tags
- puella magi adfligo systema puella magi madoka magica be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist bad decisions dating mami tomoe (tomoe mami) diabolical laughter friendship is the best ship handholding identity crises microwaving tea gets you put in the bad place names are important the body is the fursona of the soul this is not the baked goods thread we don't talk about rionna what could possibly go wrong? who in the world is azure sanfrancisco?
Good thing those options are in red. I'm talking about those here.
Can you move the "read Rionn*n*n*n*a's witch name" to the point where we actually talk about witch names?
Mostly because there's a nonzero chance Rion*n+a may detect our attampts to read her witch name. And I'm not sure what to do about that either (ask for permission? tell we're checking it now? just do it without telling her?)
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Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
Oh. I was hoping she'd notice, actually, since veB wanted Witchbomb confirmation to be at the top.
The purpose of the line at the bottom was more to give supporting evidence about our possible dewitched origins, and because I could see Riona seeing 'Dedolere' in both our ring and Witch's Soul by herself. Figure we'd tell her before she brought it up... but maybe I shouldn't have added that at all. ?_?
SaltyWaffles
I am dissapoint, son
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I constantly advocated for it, and have constantly been ignored. It's aggravating beyond belief.
Higure
Witch of Faith
- Location
- The Golden Land
Setting aside the polygraph model, which I can at least sort of understand objecting to (as it WILL piss some people off), having a subtle, personal lie detector is what we really REALLY useful. Why?
Because then, if Meguca X promises us that she's not going to go nuke Tokyo with a Clear Seed, we will know immediately if she's lying. We'll know if a supposedly reformed antagonist is actually still trying to kill us, for once. We'll know if someone's lying when they say they're here to help.
Simply put, it's the MOST useful social and political tool we can use with a generally clean conscience, and it helps us keep the people we love alive the world relatively safe.
On top of it, for these purposes, we don't need to have some complex definition of truth or anything--we just need to know if they believe the words they're speaking are false. It isn't complete immunity to deception, of course, but it will go really far towards it--especially if we demonstrate basic competency and don't tell everyone and everything about it. That way, people will not know of it, preventing them for working around it, and allowing us to more effectively deduce where they really stand and how trustworthy they are.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
I really wanted to try making the lie detector before this meeting, but the evil muse didn't have it happen. We almost got there.
Reaaaaaally wanted to have it for Riona. I guess I can feel good about not having tried if it turns out we can't make such a thing, later.
mCooperative
meanderingCephalopod
- Location
- Back in Mitakihara after like 1000 years.
Yeah, that's about what I mean, re, personal lie detector, and I would support that in a vote as long as we were clear about it serving as a personal augmentation rather than an infrastructural modus operandi change. (The latter, I've chattered on about my issues with before, and I won't rehash them here.) My remaining concern there would be that the voter base collectively agree to keep it limited to that extent, and also remember to keep in mind the intersect of "if they believe the words they're speaking are false" and "we define these terms entirely differently and also view their connotations and implications entirely differently".
I have had conversations with someone where I am 100% certain we were both speaking truthfully and in good faith, and it can be nevertheless extremely problematic and aggravating when we run into the issue of "we define these terms entirely differently and also view their connotations and implications entirely differently". If we get a problematic-seeming reading off something someone says, we need to verify that we're taking this into account.
But yeah. For a personal skill development, I'd tentatively support it, so long as we weren't planning to run around using it to (formally or by implication) clear the burden of proof- for example, during the tense discussion about what to do with Oriko, I still would strongly disagree with pointing such a lie detector at her, using it to verify she's not presently intending to be a threat, and then, assuming she's not, using that to argue with Sayaka and Homura's judgement about her future threat rating or to negotiate down the punitive measures taken with regard to her past actions. A lie detector that detects if someone believes what they're saying isn't useful for accounting for someone's future actions if you still judge their character to mean they might change their mind and become a threat later, when new situations or information come up. It is useful for seeing that they're presently a threat to your face, and trying to lie to you about it. Basically, I believe it's viable to use it to determine something is a threat, not to prove that something isn't.
- Location
- USA, Midworld world line
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
Just make the thing and, if it works, test with with our friends. Let them know what we're doing, of course.
Our close friends should know if we have a lie detector, and we probably should avoid using it while just hanging out, to avoid awkwardness?
Part of me wants to keep it an absolute secret, for maximum effectiveness, but that's probably the controlling part of me I shouldn't listen to.
mCooperative
meanderingCephalopod
- Location
- Back in Mitakihara after like 1000 years.
Just so long as we kept in mind the sheer number of secrets being juggled in this group, and tested it cautiously, yeah. @SaltyWaffles has a good plan about this, eh, in the discussion taking place around here. Scrolling both up and down.
Also one of my concerns, but just so long as we were sensible there, yeah.
The lie detector gets added to the infosec list, is probably the course of action there. We've been decent at keeping quiet about things on said list, so.
- Location
- USA, Midworld world line
@The Narrator - Fair enough.
Do you have me convinced? IRL, all of our maneuvers with Rionna are off-balance, and mostly that lack of balance would become the major topic of discussion, preventing other topics. Somehow, we are having the scene this way, and not getting mulched. Our negotiating skills are number two, or lower.
The feeling of being roped together with Sabrina and everyone in thread as we slip off the cliff is normal, right?
This is in the vote you are part of. Any conflict with your logic?
[Q] If she sounds good and honest:
-[Q] Share hypothesis about being created by magic. Wholly, by de-Witching, as part of a larger concept...
I would be more convinced if you were not voting for exactly the same thing that you argued against, minus a conditional that is in the control of the other party. We can't truly make a quality decision on short notice regarding her moral nature. It is only a guess.
Let me take you up on that argument, as an exercise? It isn't going to change what happens next, is it?
BTW -True or False, are we inside Rionna's lie detector right now?
We can pull out our Savior card here. This card is
[X] Explain your inference that your wish was more important than your past, and you traded it away somehow.
-[X]The spirit of the wish was to help everyone, and as we are now, we will.
-[X] full amnesia regarding identity, suspect that this applies to the outside world as well.
-[X] please describe our soul in detail?
[X] we have a reason to want her here
-[X] what is her reason to seek us?
-[X] can we work together?
[X] Kyuubey talk
-[X] When di' you first meet it?
-[X] What does it want Rionna to do?
[X] witchbomb status / protect innocents
-[X] why we infosec, and what we expect.
[X] discuss powers, read her witch name, clear seed talk
[X] return to Mami
[X] telepathy Niko
[X] Ask how late she wants to talk tonight
[X] Our local history
[X] her history
[X] We have people to gather, that want to meet her.
[X] write out a few bilingual notes for her to use with the hotel staff
-[X] and a written address for her to meet us at
-[X] and imply that she could use the hotel's business card to communicate her return destination in a taxi.
We should have a Big Endian outline, start with the largest (per Rionna) issues, work towards the smallest.
Do you have me convinced? IRL, all of our maneuvers with Rionna are off-balance, and mostly that lack of balance would become the major topic of discussion, preventing other topics. Somehow, we are having the scene this way, and not getting mulched. Our negotiating skills are number two, or lower.
The feeling of being roped together with Sabrina and everyone in thread as we slip off the cliff is normal, right?
I was trying to be distant about this information before.
This is in the vote you are part of. Any conflict with your logic?
[Q] If she sounds good and honest:
-[Q] Share hypothesis about being created by magic. Wholly, by de-Witching, as part of a larger concept...
I would be more convinced if you were not voting for exactly the same thing that you argued against, minus a conditional that is in the control of the other party. We can't truly make a quality decision on short notice regarding her moral nature. It is only a guess.
Let me take you up on that argument, as an exercise? It isn't going to change what happens next, is it?
BTW -True or False, are we inside Rionna's lie detector right now?
We can pull out our Savior card here. This card is
It is aligned with our understanding, and literally part of our belief. Therefore, we aren't trying to lie. We ARE answering a slightly different question.
[X] Explain your inference that your wish was more important than your past, and you traded it away somehow.
-[X]The spirit of the wish was to help everyone, and as we are now, we will.
-[X] full amnesia regarding identity, suspect that this applies to the outside world as well.
-[X] please describe our soul in detail?
[X] we have a reason to want her here
-[X] what is her reason to seek us?
-[X] can we work together?
[X] Kyuubey talk
-[X] When di' you first meet it?
-[X] What does it want Rionna to do?
[X] witchbomb status / protect innocents
-[X] why we infosec, and what we expect.
[X] discuss powers, read her witch name, clear seed talk
[X] return to Mami
[X] telepathy Niko
[X] Ask how late she wants to talk tonight
[X] Our local history
[X] her history
[X] We have people to gather, that want to meet her.
[X] write out a few bilingual notes for her to use with the hotel staff
-[X] and a written address for her to meet us at
-[X] and imply that she could use the hotel's business card to communicate her return destination in a taxi.
We should have a Big Endian outline, start with the largest (per Rionna) issues, work towards the smallest.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
I don't think we really need to go interrogate O&K. We probably would be better off keeping the lie detector secret from them, based on the fact we still shouldn't 100% trust them (Oriko freely admitted to possibly going out on a murder spree in the future, even).
It'll probably be more useful to just have the lie detector on while interacting normally with O&K, at least for a bit. We can test whether any glaring inconsistencies pop up, and maybe tell them about the lie detector afterwards.
... I guess at that point we could do the list of questions thing.
Whatever!
mCooperative
meanderingCephalopod
- Location
- Back in Mitakihara after like 1000 years.
I was meaning mostly the "how do we test the lie detector" part; I've already stated my objections to using the lie detector on O&K for anything besides checking that they're not currently planning to murder us or something.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
I think Oriko of all people, would understand.
But I'd go for being upfront about things just to stay Honest Good.
Can we just give mami a chibi?
- Location
- USA, Midworld world line
Can we remember to call Niko, as we should have done from the taxi ride?
Just say
[] Niko
and see what happens? Please? Try to keep our promises.
I want to point out why we may consider forcing a round answer on her. Her main concern is whatever brought her here. Obviously, she wants to use the miracle somehow. As long as she can see a clear path to her goal and safety, I think she will put up with it. Much more convenient than trying to decide if she will malfunction later.
We could achieve more from our grief senses if we train together with her? We might be able to detect lies using skill, rather than enchantment.
Of course, the genre answer is to go out and battle by her side - then we'll know the real person! OTOH, if both Sabrina and Rionna go after the same witch, it isn't often much of a fight.
Idea! We should hunt a witch with her, so she could see the active core of the witch as we did. Safety in numbers. Perhaps far better data from the same exploration if we get her senses involved.
Just say
[] Niko
and see what happens? Please? Try to keep our promises.
I want to point out why we may consider forcing a round answer on her. Her main concern is whatever brought her here. Obviously, she wants to use the miracle somehow. As long as she can see a clear path to her goal and safety, I think she will put up with it. Much more convenient than trying to decide if she will malfunction later.
We could achieve more from our grief senses if we train together with her? We might be able to detect lies using skill, rather than enchantment.
Of course, the genre answer is to go out and battle by her side - then we'll know the real person! OTOH, if both Sabrina and Rionna go after the same witch, it isn't often much of a fight.
Idea! We should hunt a witch with her, so she could see the active core of the witch as we did. Safety in numbers. Perhaps far better data from the same exploration if we get her senses involved.
The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
I'm not thrilled about it, but at least it's not flat out telling her that we were created by a wish. I want to keep that vote from winning.
We have no idea whether or not she has any such power.
They take too long to make.
mCooperative
meanderingCephalopod
- Location
- Back in Mitakihara after like 1000 years.
It's less that I think O&K would object, and more my general lie detector infrastructure concerns all around. Being quiet about having a lie detector (to the general populace) is, aside from the tactical value, also not spreading around the social pressures associated with having the thing; those I have a thing about. If you're talking about staying upfront with O&K, **shrug**, I don't really have an opinion about the matter, since I'm like mostly sure they're on the level, but like, paranoia.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
I... I think we used up the enchanted Grief with the privacy thing.
We are the worst girlfriend.[Q] Feel super down and sad. Despondently tell Riona you're terrible and don't deserve to be here and go beg Mami for fogiveness.
Vote edit:
I wanted to keep the wordcount low, but I think some of these might be important enough as to need to ensure there's no miscommunication.
TL;DR is still the same: Keep contact with Mami; make an effort to communicate with Riona in a way she's comfortable with; confirm she's Witchbombed; give the (known) facts about our history/existence; try to find Riona's motives; if she seems trustworthy, share hypothesis.
[] Keep in contact with Mami, with Grief.
-[] (Comfort and precautionary measure).
[] Be efficient.
-[] Shrug off rudeness, prioritize business over politeness, be blunt if necessary.
[] Explain Mami's choice to remain ignorant of facts that terrify many Magical Girls.
-[] Check Riona's Witch's name.
-[] Ask Riona to confirm her bombed status.
[] Information sharing:
-[] Waking up half-dead; amnesia; knowledge, random and about the system.
-[] KB's comment about karma level and experiences.
--[] Check Riona's opinion of KB.
[] Figure how far to trust Riona.
-[] Ask after her motives.
--[] Mental note: She did fly halfway across the world based on rumours.
-[] Ask what she sees in you (with her powers).
[] If her motives make sense and she seems good and honest:
-[] Share hypothesis about being created by magic.
--[] Wholly.
--[] As part of a larger concept.
---[] Share how many times you coincidentally were able to help someone in the nick of time.
--[] By de-Witching.
---[] Explain Witch names, Witch runes, the name in your Ring.
-[] Else, break to voting.
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mCooperative
meanderingCephalopod
- Location
- Back in Mitakihara after like 1000 years.
... these read really unclearly to me, and I've been following along. I'm not actually sure if you're meaning "we were created whole-cloth" and "we were created with regard to something else" or "share the entirety of our theory about being created by magic, and why" which may include sensitive information. I'm concerned that they could be misconstrued, re, the level of detail of what to share. Wordcount is important, but clarity is starting to suffer a bit.
Also concerned how we've dropped any attention as to how we intend to confirm this, and how well we maintain best practices.
- Location
- USA, Midworld world line
The same? No, superior to prior iteration.
Every time we make a distinction in quality of thought, we may be teaching Sabrina how to level up.
Gold stars - you go get 'em.
"I am going to be completely honest with you: there are things I'm not going to tell you because if Kyubey got its paws on them, it might be able to kill all of us with them. The fewer people with that sort of stuff in their heads, the better, full stop. We haven't won yet."
This needs to be on speed dial. We do have options to cease following her prompts. and this is that tool.
Every time we make a distinction in quality of thought, we may be teaching Sabrina how to level up.
Gold stars - you go get 'em.
There should be plenty of time to hear your plan from start to finish now. A good review is always salutary! What are you cooking?
"I am going to be completely honest with you: there are things I'm not going to tell you because if Kyubey got its paws on them, it might be able to kill all of us with them. The fewer people with that sort of stuff in their heads, the better, full stop. We haven't won yet."
This needs to be on speed dial. We do have options to cease following her prompts. and this is that tool.
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Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
(Do we need to include a '[] do not mention info about X, Y, and Homu'?)
[] If her motives make sense and she seems good and honest:
-[] Share hypothesis about being created by magic.
--[] Wholly.
--[] As part of a larger concept.
---[] Share how many times you coincidentally were able to help someone in the nick of time.
--[] By de-Witching.
---[] Explain Witch names, Witch runes, the name in your Ring.
-[] Else, break to voting.
If Riona does show herself to have good motives to have traveled all the way to Japan on a dime, based on rumours (or on whatever source she used to confirm our existence), then share our hypothesis:
That we might have been created whole cloth, magically.
That we might have been created as part of something bigger. Supporting evidence: Not only do we want to help people, we 'luckily' tend to find situations in which we can help people just in time, as if guided/aided by magic.
That we might have been a powerful Witch (like a Walpurigsnacht), and have been de-Witched. Supporting evidence, before Riona brings it up herself: Our Witch's name is in our Soul Gem ring, which is supposed to show the meguca's name. Mind we didn't have a name back then.
-[] Share hypothesis about being created by magic.
--[] Wholly.
--[] As part of a larger concept.
---[] Share how many times you coincidentally were able to help someone in the nick of time.
--[] By de-Witching.
---[] Explain Witch names, Witch runes, the name in your Ring.
-[] Else, break to voting.
If Riona does show herself to have good motives to have traveled all the way to Japan on a dime, based on rumours (or on whatever source she used to confirm our existence), then share our hypothesis:
That we might have been created whole cloth, magically.
That we might have been created as part of something bigger. Supporting evidence: Not only do we want to help people, we 'luckily' tend to find situations in which we can help people just in time, as if guided/aided by magic.
That we might have been a powerful Witch (like a Walpurigsnacht), and have been de-Witched. Supporting evidence, before Riona brings it up herself: Our Witch's name is in our Soul Gem ring, which is supposed to show the meguca's name. Mind we didn't have a name back then.
As for confirming Riona's Witchbombed status, I think it should be simple enough. We're pointing out Mami's not privy to certain 'facts that terrify many Magical Girls', and I think Riona should understand what that means. Then we can hint/ask in a variety of ways (Does Riona know the true purpose of Magical Girls? / We know all about the system, she should feel free to tell us anything, does she know what we're talking about? / Does Riona know where Witches come from? / How many Soul Gems does it take to change a galactic light bulb? / etc.).
If this means what I think it means, it's just being blunt and straight to the point, and not burden Riona with politeness?
- Location
- USA, Midworld world line
This is factual. I am searching for the factor that makes her behavior rationally explainable. She is not defending herself at all, to a blatant degree. Is it overconfidence? Is it justified confidence? Risk taking? Or does she have an advantage over us, a non-combat advantage?
I don't know either, but my most adverse position is that she has certainty about our responses. An effective lie detector is one way to imagine that. I want to counter that possibility.
I mean, her information might not be subtle. Perhaps when she describes our soul, it will be in unexpected terms? "There's light, pouring of your soul, such that I can't open my eyes fully. It's some kind of church choir in there, many voices, and radiant goodness enough to bleach your bedsheets on the line. I've never seen the like before. Oh, your are Good, alright. Too good...."
- Location
- California
The most likely possibility is that she just doesn't care about socializing and just wants what she came here for, how we can grief bend.