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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Shadowhisker said:
I still fear the fallout of Homura finding this out. Like, it might be worse than the potentialbomb.
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Faraway-R has proposed an interesting theory.

As far as I understand, he offers a model of timeloops as a superposition of quantum probability states of the universe collected together and connected with each other by Homu Homu. So, not exactly timeline hopping, more like quantum sliding.

Eh, I dunno what I mean, so I'm tagging him.

@Faraway-R, could you please repeat your theory? I can't find the relevant quote.
 
mCooperative said:
Mwargh, did we ever get clear word-of-god or word-of-Firn about the exact metaphysical state all those other timelines exist in? Like, is this a branching tree that persists after you starting running a branch then leave, is it a load of different very similar universes that start running in different directions when Homura gets to them but are actually totally independent, are they only concretely extant from a metatemporal perspective and there's an 'Alpha meta-Timeline' with some level of primacy as defined by Homura's presence which intersects with the continued non-paradoxed state of existence, or what? There's no detail to the information that previous timelines persist- is this even actually a setting where there is a differentiation between timelines and universes? Homura's thematic elements suggests there should be, simply because of how big a role thematic elements take, but what is it, then, and, and-

**keeps ranting about the matter**

**is aware I'm pretty sure we don't have explicitly clear answers for this**

**really, really wants explicitly clear answers for this, for peace of mind**
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They're all independent universes, which can have details that differ before the point of Homura's entry.

Rellow said:
This is why I hate the multiverse type of "time travel" that unfortunately seems to be canon because the original creators didn't think too deeply about the mechanics of Homura's power.
Imagine wishing to protect one person from a terrible fate and failing possibly hundreds of times, and then finding out that the results of your failures continue to exist. Every witched out Madoka left behind is suffering forever. All the people killed by the more powerful Gretchens created from your continued time travel's effects on potential are your fault. Homura's many attempts may have resulted in more tragic endings for some timelines than would have happened without her interference.

It just feels like some cruel monkey paw style garbage that violates the intent of Homura's wish.
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Well, Homura's Revenge implies she wished above her Potential, for what that's worth. But also, souls are multiversal in PMMM-verse. It is still metaphysically the same Madoka.
 
HOW MANY TIMES DO WE HAVE TO TEACH YOU THIS LESSON, OLD MAN? :V

No, but seriously, Homura's "time travel" is canonically "sliding" between pre-existing universes, and PMAS shows no signs of deviating from canon in this respect.
 
Well, in an infinite multiverse, there are an infinite number of bad outcomes and an infinite number of good outcomes so any changes made cannot tip that balance. There will always be a billion, billion, billion outcomes that did worse, and a billion, billion, billion outcomes that did better. So there is no point in stressing out over finding the absolute best or worst outcome. You only need to get close enough to be happy.
 
NitroFumetsu said:
Well, in an infinite multiverse, there are an infinite number of bad outcomes and an infinite number of good outcomes so any changes made cannot tip that balance. There will always be a billion, billion, billion outcomes that did worse, and a billion, billion, billion outcomes that did better. So there is no point in stressing out over finding the absolute best or worst outcome. You only need to get close enough to be happy.
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"You see, the nature of the multiverse is that it's not actually 'multi' so much as 'omni'. Everything that could have possibly happened has happened, and more than that, it has happened an infinite number of times across an infinite number of universes." - Kischur Zelretch Schweinorg (From the fanfic 'Chaos Theory')

((Homura meeting the Wizard Marshall would be hilarious and/or terrifying.))

Multiverse theory lends itself to a somewhat nihilist outlook since no matter what you do in one verse, there's a infinite number of ones where things went horribly wrong - so what's the point?
 
Raiseth said:
Faraway-R has proposed an interesting theory.

As far as I understand, he offers a model of timeloops as a superposition of quantum probability states of the universe collected together and connected with each other by Homu Homu. So, not exactly timeline hopping, more like quantum sliding.

Eh, I dunno what I mean, so I'm tagging him.

@Faraway-R, could you please repeat your theory? I can't find the relevant quote.
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Well, strictly as a special service, here's how to find it:
1) Go to the top of the page
2) Just below the tags, and near the Watch/Unwatch Thread, look up "Thread Tools" menu. Open it.
3) Press the "Who replied?" option in the menu
4) At this point, a list of posters will appear. There is a "filter" searchbar within. Start writing up my username, F-A-R-A... This should be enough.
5) Press the big honking number to the right of the username. This will open the list of my replies for this thread. Search it.

That said, LMGIFY:
Faraway-R said:
You know, I think I am now very much in dislike of using the terminology of "slider" and "alternate universe" when it comes to Homura.

You see, far too much about Homura's magic, her symbology, is tied to time. Not the parallel universes. So using "alternate universe" to me is dangerously misleading. For one significant reason - it gives the impression that all loops are equal. Equally independent from each other. Tied only by a single passerby, Akemi Homura, and her actions towards Kaname Madokas of these otherwise independent alternate universes.

And yet, potentialbomb exists. And yet, Homura's magic was shown to be all about time. As such, I think it's better to refer to various loops Homura has enacted as "alternate timelines". This ties them all together into a single whole, into a single universe.

But what about the differences beyond Homura looping? An entirely valid question. Well, the answer is - Homura isn't creating alternate timelines. She isn't their ultimate origin. Her magic does not make her a timeline creator - no, I feel her magic is about choosing one possibility among many. Choosing it, and making it more prevalent. And for all the changes that may or may not exist between different timelines, Homura and Madoka are the ones to retain some legacies of the previous loops. And Homura is the one who focuses her attention on Madoka. Potential of Kaname Madoka is the superimposition of Potentials of all the Kaname Madokas of varied timelines.

What does it mean for us? I think if we look at Homura's looping as bringing about and making prevalent various timelines, then the desired end is probably not going to be us making one _universe_ ending well, and then going off to mend the other ones. It will be us making one timeline ending well, and then superimposing it over all the other timelines.
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Here you go, @Raiseth
 
Dragontrapper said:
Multiverse theory lends itself to a somewhat nihilist outlook since no matter what you do in one verse, there's a infinite number of ones where things went horribly wrong - so what's the point?
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If nothing you do matters, might as well do whatever the hell you want.

In other news, rereading the early portions of the quest where 117 grief marbles was considered a lot. Those were simpler times.
 
Faraway-R said:
Well, strictly as a special service, here's how to find it:
1) Go to the top of the page
2) Just below the tags, and near the Watch/Unwatch Thread, look up "Thread Tools" menu. Open it.
3) Press the "Who replied?" option in the menu
4) At this point, a list of posters will appear. There is a "filter" searchbar within. Start writing up my username, F-A-R-A... This should be enough.
5) Press the big honking number to the right of the username. This will open the list of my replies for this thread. Search it.
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Click to shrink...
There's a simpler way.

1) Go to the top of the page.
2) Under where it says your username, Inbox and Alerts, you'll find a Search prompt.
3) Check the "Search this thread only" box.
4) If you want to narrow it down to the posts of a particular person, put their username in the "Posts by Member:" box.
5) Enter whatever word or phrase you're searching for in the top box.
 
skaianDestiny said:
If nothing you do matters, might as well do whatever the hell you want.

In other news, rereading the early portions of the quest where 117 grief marbles was considered a lot. Those were simpler times.
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I dunno, I generally consider pre-Kirika-Antimagic-Is-For-Oriko to have been kind of the dark ages so to speak.

"Before Godwinson Revelation" and "After Godwinson Revelation".
 
Shadowhisker said:
no

please, I beg of you

I have forged through the flames once

never again
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Meanwhile, I'm just sitting here, having reread the thread in its entirety no less then eight times. This weakness of yours is why you will fail, my friend. :V


Anyway...

I really, really don't like Kaizuki's phrasing here.

[X] You understand where Homura's coming from. You won't tell Madoka without consulting her first. But Sayaka...
-[X] She wished to be useful. And her power lets her read souls and make copies of Soul Gems. You don't think that's a coincidence.
--[X] If Homura thinks the risks of bringing Sayaka in on this are too high, you'll respect that, but you personally think that she could handle it, based on what you know.
[X] Sayaka
-[X] Vote in abeyance.
[X] Nadia.
-[X] Ask about Riona, and her not informing you all of her arrival.
 
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[X] Redshirt Army

I haven't been able to pay much attention to thread, lately.

For what it's worth, I think Homura might need some more reassuring about Madoka.

Firnagzen said:
You hold your hand out, tipping it from side to side as if balancing something.

"That's the pros, as it were. The cons..." You grimace, exhaling slowly. "Or, well, the risks. I'm worried she'll be hurt by the knowledge, and be isolated by it. Granted, that would be three of us in the know, but then there's Mami, Hitomi and Madoka who aren't in the loop, and I know what you think of that."

"Don't drag Madoka into this," Homura says, her jaw tightening. "I don't-" She breaks off, and shakes her head.

"I don't..." Homura squeezes her eyes shut. "I don't understand Sayaka. Not this time."

"I..." you exhale. "She's the same person, the same as she's always been. The only thing that's different is that we've managed to give her a different impression this time. And yeah - I say we, because you played a part, too."

Homura sighs, eyes sliding off to the side. You're tempted to start explaining more about Sayaka, but you can see she has something on her mind, too, so you give her a moment to let her work it out.

"Don't drag Madoka into this," Homura says again, this time at nearly a whisper. "I- what about Mami?"

"Hm?" you ask.

"T-telling Madoka," Homura whispers. "Telling Mami. You don't want to tell her. It's the same."

It's not. It's not the same, not really. But here's Homura, trying to resolve things with an emotional appeal, an attempt to find common ground.
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Look how we're talking about Sayaka, then Homu is like 'nobody cares about Sayaka, this is a conversation about Madoka now'. ;)
 
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Vote V2.0

[X] You understand where Homura's coming from. You certainly wouldn't tell Madoka without Homura's explicit agreement.
-[X] But you did tell Mami that there's another big thing you aren't telling her. If she demanded to know... you don't know. But you don't want to lie to her.

[X] Sayaka wished to be useful.
-[X] Her power lets her read souls - one of the few explicit limitations your power has. She can make copies of soul gems. You don't think that's a coincidence.

[X] If Homura thinks the risks of bringing Sayaka in on this are too high, you'll respect that. She might not be willing to keep it to herself, though you'd try to impress how dangerous the information is if you told her.
-[X] But based on what you know, you think Sayaka could handle it. It gives her a villain, and a goal to work towards.
[X] Sayaka
-[X] Vote in abeyance.
[X] Nadia.
-[X] Ask about Riona, and her not informing you all of her arrival.
 
[x] Redshirt Army

But Homura's desire to keep Madoka ignorant is a topic that we're going to have to come back to eventually.
 
[X] She needs to know that she can ask if she must --We expect her to eventually run into the facts of life herself.
-[X] There is an issue -- we made Mami an offer to tell her. We explained the consequences for her of learning very loosely, and she said no.
--[X] Because Sayaka is also a magical girl with us, we'd be remiss to not make her a similar offer.
[X] Her power lets her read souls. Girls like Anri exist.
--[X] Ask Homura to plan what we should do in the event it becomes critical to witchbomb Sayaka.
-[X] Can she help us get Sayaka ready to carry the secret properly?
-[X] We need to protect Madoka from contracting, not the witchbomb per se.
--[X] Ask to talk later about how to prepare Madoka to not overreact if someone else told her the facts of life.
[X] Sayaka
-[X] Vote in abeyance.
-[X] record the Hunt
[X] Nadia.
-[X] Ask about Riona's silence.

Let us ASK of Homura to be consistent with ourself. See how much she is engaged with us? She is trying persuasion. We logically should respond with a request for her plan. Let her try to solve the problem too. Treat Homura as an equal.
Therefore, we set the problem out as much as possible.
Then ask her to pick it up.
And remain on her side, by including Madoka in this.
 
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