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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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The ultimate failure state of Dokawish is Homusads.

Homura needs to be Madoka's protector. She kind of forced the issue when she Wished.

Torgamous said:
She already did. That's why we exist. She should let Sabrina do her job instead of invalidating the point of her existence.

...is what I would really love to say, but Homura won't let us tell Madoka about that either.
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Now imagining Homu forbiding Sabrina to tell Madoka things.

Like the bombs, or that Saotome will never get married, or that Santa doesn't exist.

Cue Homu disguising herself as Santa to keep the dream alive.

Edit: correction: cue Homu making Brina disguise herself as Santa to keep the dream alive.

Mami joins in.
 
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The Narrator said:
As opposed to the wish she might make if she has no idea what's going on? It would pretty embarrassing if the world was destroyed because she wanted to save that cat again. :p
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Madoka is absolutely protected from petty concerns such as this.

Or, in Homu-speak, "That won't be necessary.":V

Basically, despite creating a mental image of a yandere stalker, Homura watches Madoka so that things like that won't happen around her.

Edit: I think we need a merge.

1) Explaining how we'd go around Witchbombing Sayaka, so that we won't sound too idealistic.
2) Telling Homura why things are not the same for any given person.
3) Telling Homura we weren't hedging everything upon this course of action, and we do have our concerns for Sayaka "Destined to Die" Miki, so it's not like she has to turn the waterworks on in order to stop us. :thonk:

These are all ideas that were tossed around... but... votecrafting... my only weakness!
 
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The Narrator said:
I should think that the witchbomb would be all the reason that anyone would need to not want anyone to contract ever again.
Sayaka's a lot of thing, but she's not so selfish and callous that her response to finding out that magical girls become monsters would be to want her best friend to consign herself to the same fate.
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Much like "Sayaka you can uplift and police the whole world with your powers, of course you are halping" , is it really certain that Sayaka actually would believe this and act like she does?

Between Sabrina and clear seeds (and her own track record), she's got plenty of excuses to think "oh witching out isn't that big a risk". Other than Sabrina and Homura talking about /past/ timelines, or Niko's claims about studies....who could we really introduce her to that has firsthand experience of this actually happening, to impress on what it was like before (and would be if anything happened to 'Brina). She certainly doesn't know anyone directly to make it "real" for her.

The only reason we even consider Madoka so near-certain is 1. the sort of situations where she isn't stopped by Homura from contracting 2. the overwhelming incentives Kyubey has to get her to witch compared to any other meguca ever. So if she didn't know (and believe) #2, which risks sounding a lot like the not-believed talk about Sayaka's wish (ie hyperbole from an energetic person) , she might not even be very far wrong.

Basically I think Sayaka either needs to meet some people with witches for friends (and I don't know that Anri is very persuasive, while Akiko is still catatonic yes?) or get both bombs at once.

===
But talking about Homura...I really wish people replied to me more :cry: No support for bringing up "why don't you watch over my science sessions with the seeds / why don't we work together with Niko next time" , OR for bringing up the angle that Sayaka needs a reason to believe she should help keep Madoka from contracting?
 
Racoras said:
But talking about Homura...I really wish people replied to me more :cry: No support for bringing up "why don't you watch over my science sessions with the seeds / why don't we work together with Niko next time" , OR for bringing up the angle that Sayaka needs a reason to believe she should help keep Madoka from contracting?
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Because these are nice, non-debatable courses of action? Why should we discuss them? :V

Alright, sorry. I'll come back to it later. Shitposting calls, you understand.


I've just had that idea of trying to explain to Homu and Mado everything evah.

"...And so you're stuck in the perpetual limbo of desire and self-sacrifice. I swear I'd puke if you weren't so cute. Also, you are my parents, so I'm somewhat afraid it's genetic... metaphysical... you know what I mean."

"I really don't."

*BSODs*

"W-was that really necessary, breaking out news to us like that?"

*Eyes start glowing gold*

"Sabrina-"

*Ignores Madokami, watches Homu. Notices wings starting to protrude from her back.*

"Good, you're both here. I swear, you are the weirdest bunch of lesbians this side of Asunaro! And I know Kures, mom and mom, Kures!"

*Starts floating*

"Sabrina!"

"Sit. Down."

*Plops back into chair, startled*

*Still BSODs, despite everything*

*Smiles*

"Good, good. Now, since you're both here in official capacity, I've gotta start again. For the protocol, you see. I'm certainly not enjoying myself, no sir."

"Please stop-"

"So. Once again. There was this sadsack Moe nerd, who-"
 
[x] "I did tell Mami that there were other infohazards like the lichbomb, and offered to tell her of them. She declined, but I would have told her if she hadn't."
[x] "And telling Madoka about witches means she can't be tricked into wishing by Kyubey."
 
Racoras said:
Between Sabrina and clear seeds (and her own track record), she's got plenty of excuses to think "oh witching out isn't that big a risk".
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Among our friends, who are already aware of Madoka's huge potential, it shouldn't be too hard for us to explain the causal connection from the witchbomb to Madoka's contract destroying the world. We want them helping us to prevent that.

And even if not... being a magical girl is like getting infected by a zombie bite. You will become the monsters that you fight. There's a reason that Mami has taken her life after being witchbombed in several timelines, and even tried to mercy kill all the others in one. The implications are horrifying. If Sabrina's powers made that no big deal then we wouldn't be so worried about how people would react to finding out. For Sayaka to find out about it and still want her best friend to contract and subject herself to that same fate? No way. That would be downright sociopathic.
 
[X] Reassure Homura in earnest.
[X] Be Contrite and Respectful Brina.
[X] Suggest or Offer that she watch over riskier SCIENCE like messing with seeds, or that a group activity of her and Niko and Brina might be safer
-[X] Promise to not do any of this without Homura's (and Niko's) consent.
[X] She doesn't need to convince us; Witchbombing Madoka would make her want to Contract. We know it's an awful idea.
-[X] When we told Mami about KB and Soul Gems, we made mistakes: We assumed we understood the damage that would cause, and we did it so we wouldn't feel guilty.
-[X] We're not repeating those mistakes.
[X] Explain some of the merits of bombing her. Mainly the risk of her encouraging Madoka that we oversold the downsides of contracting, while she'd be actively helping us dissuase Madoka if she knew
[X] Quieter tone. Explain how you would do Lichbomb Sayaka.
-[X] Use you and Mami, and Niko and Kazumi as examples.
--[X] Sayaka would be informed about the existence of dangerous knowledge and about just how dangerous it is; reassured that progress is being done; and we'd have her think about it for some time before deciding whether she wants to know or not.

[X] Sayaka
-[X] Vote in abeyance.
-[X] Take safety measures and record the Hunt?
-[X] Give her today's Kyouko's payment.
[X] Nadia.
-[X] Ask about Riona, and her not having contacted us yet.

Horribly worded tweaks to @Onmur 's version, I feel if we're going to bring up our experiments it flows more naturally to have it first as it follows up on her warnings... though witchbombing is also serious, so less sure on that. Basically just added in my two key points, and otherwise like this better than Kaizuki's take of not explaining our reasons.


(What even is SV's default color? I can never find it to revert to after using another one)
 
The Narrator said:
Madoka's contract destroying the world
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See, this is an unclear argument.... is it her Contract we're worried about (Kami-scale wish reshaping the world at an instant), or her Witch? Because the latter seems more often the stated worry, the first is purely a matter of lawyering it properly to Wish Gud and Sayaka's already gotten positive reinforcement (and express /surprise/ from us, implying we might underestimate Madoka the same way)

For the latter....

The Narrator said:
If Sabrina's powers made that no big deal then we wouldn't be so worried about how people would react to finding out
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You seem to have been missing my point in a bizzare fashion, or I'm misunderstanding your reply. Sabrina's powers have nothing to do with the infobomb , obviously.... but all your statements are about witches being 1000% absolutely inevitable. Contracting = Witching Out, no matter what.... and thats the entire thing I argued against (from what Sayaka knows and hasn't just been told by one or two oddballs). Sure, its a huge risk to take...but driving is pretty risky too. And Sabrina is pushing down the actual risk of any one person witching.

The Narrator said:
being a magical girl is like getting infected by a zombie bite
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Thats what makes this metaphor seem.... inaccurate a bit. Its more like Vizards or Grey Wardens or most directly Changelings and St-Giles-Reds in Dresden. At first you get this promise of big power that you can do heroic and positive things with, but if you aren't careful and go excessive with it or don't have a support system (which is what Sabrina appears to easily and newly provide, while all Homura's worries are from before) THEN you turn into a giant horrible monster.

The zombie comparison ignores that in-between state of improvement, and relatedly states an utter certainty of progressing to the next stage.
 
Raiseth said:
2) Telling Homura why things are not the same for any given person.
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I think this is already kind of addressed by the update?
"T-telling Madoka," Homura whispers. "Telling Mami. You don't want to tell her. It's the same."

It's not. It's not the same, not really. But here's Homura, trying to resolve things with an emotional appeal, an attempt to find common ground.
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Like, no shit, Sherlock :V (but Sherlock is Mami, not Homu), but that's not what Homu's going for. She's not exactly making a good point, and pointing that out might just make her feel bad. Worse than she already is.
 
Racoras said:
See, this is an unclear argument.... is it her Contract we're worried about (Kami-scale wish reshaping the world at an instant), or her Witch?
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The latter seems to follow from the former immediately, judging by the loop where she destroys the world, quit possibly because the power levels are off the scale. We should operate under the assumption that a Madocontract is synonymous with Gretchen, because anything else is taking an unacceptable risk with billions of lives.


Racoras said:
The zombie comparison ignores that in-between state of improvement, and relatedly states an utter certainty of progressing to the next stage.
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The next stage is body horror, death and the loss of one's soul. And even if we're dealing with it now, it's a potential risk that will become an inevitable certainty if anything happens to Sabrina. Even Clear Seeds run out eventually. People are dying from this every day. And you think Sayaka's going to go, "My potential death and rebrith as a murderous monster and ultimate fate as a power source for an alien hivemind is totally worth it for the superpowers," when she finds out? And want someone she cares about to undergo the same process?
 
So... why did telling Sayaka move to telling Madoka?

Also, if one were to convince Madoka about witching and then add that the potential of a witch is equal to the potential of the magical girl and finally point out to her that her potential is of such strength that her witch may very well consume the world... would she still be inclined to wish?
 
obssesednuker said:
So... why did telling Sayaka move to telling Madoka?
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Because we have our doubts about whether Sayaka would be willing or able to avoid telling Madoka once she knows.


obssesednuker said:
Also, if one were to convince Madoka about witching and then add that the potential of a witch is equal to the potential of the magical girl and finally point out to her that her potential is of such strength that her witch may very well consume the world... would she still be inclined to wish?
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I don't believe she would. I don't think she would callously risk the lives of billions of other people in that way.
 
obssesednuker said:
So... why did telling Sayaka move to telling Madoka?

Also, if one were to convince Madoka about witching and then add that the potential of a witch is equal to the potential of the magical girl and finally point out to her that her potential is of such strength that her witch may very well consume the world... would she still be inclined to wish?
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The Narrator said:
I don't believe she would. I don't think she would callously risk the lives of billions of other people in that way.
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Canon!Madoka did.
PMAS!Madoka did.

If we ever get around Witchbombing Madoka, we go all the way. And by "all the way", I mean "Homura is super lesbians for you and has such a huge inferiority complex she kinda reminds me of someone, so basically Rebellion".

My Shitposting Omake was actually me propagating my views through easily acceptable prism of comedy. :V
 
Firnagzen said:
Madoka fidgets, blushing. "It wasn't really anything special..."

"It is a good point," you say firmly. "Homura, tell her."

Conversation lapses onto easier topics after that. For your part, you sit back and let your mind wander. Mami nudges you, and you turn a smile on her. You snuggle closer, wrapping your arm around her waist. She sighs happily.
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I'm unsatisfied by this. On two fronts.

First, we need to have watched this scene, so I'll complete it:

Madoka fidgets, blushing. "It wasn't really anything special..."

"It is a good point," you say firmly. "Homura, tell her."

Reflexively, almost hesitating, Homura turns to Madoka. The pink haired girl blushes further, her pink eyes settling on Homura's, expectantly.

The gears in Homura's minds grind to a halt.

Madoka looks down, blushing even further.

"You..." slowly, Homura tries to string the proper words together, "you're- you're sp... I- it's..." a sudden bout of stuttering assails the time traveller, turning her into a reddening incoherent mess that would make Moemura cry, "it's- you're- it was- I- You're a good point!"

The whispered yell is soft enough it barely reaches Madoka's ears.

The pinkette covers her hand with her hand, stiffling a giggle.

Homura groans.

Both girls look away.
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And then:

Conversation lapses onto easier topics after that. For your part, you sit back and let your mind wander. You snuggle closer WITHOT PROMPTING WHATSOEVER BECAUSE MUMIHUGS YES, wrapping your arm around her waist. She sighs happily.
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But no really, Mami nudging Brina for hugs is cute. ;)


Firnagzen said:
And the conversation rolls back in, like it never left, Sayaka poking Homura in the side and making her twitch.
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It's so hilarious how Sayaka casually spooks Homu and is totally oblivious to it. :V


Firnagzen said:
"You make me believe I could be better," Mami whispers, leaning into your hug.

"You keep me grounded. Keep me sane, keep me on the right path," you say.
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"OK, Mami, I know I said you keep me grounded but I kind of want to stretch my wings a bit?"

"Nu-huh."

*Adds more Ribbons to keep Sabrina grounded*

Firnagzen said:
Homura jabs a finger at the Clear Seed. "You don't know what that is," she says.
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"Silly Homura. Of course we know. It's a toucan."

"... We?"

"... You know, at this point I should probably tell you..."
 
Raiseth said:
Canon!Madoka did.
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PMAS!Madoka, I'll grant you (kinda? more on this in a bit). But canon!Madoka... didn't. From the loops we saw, she either was already a magical girl upon learning about witching or made her wish without awareness that becoming an MG meant a destiny of becoming a witch. The one timeline she did make a wish in which she was aware wishing would mean witching (although it still isn't clear whether she was also aware it would mean destroying the world) she made a wish that she knew would solve the problem outright.

Skelm said:
They made wishes that obviated the problem, which rather supports @The Narrator's position.
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In the case of the PMAS!Madoka from the last loop, it may have obviated the problem for the timeline Homura looped into (at least so far), yeah. For the one she came from however...
 
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Guys, again. From the start to finish.

If we tell Madoka the Witchbomb
She realizes in a clever bout of Rules Lawyering that any Wish means any Wish whatsoever
So she Wishes so hard it breaks the universe and her own Witch in process
But then Third Movie happens, as a ( somewhat protracted, admittedly ) result of her actions
And I'm super not okay with that
Because Homucifer has awful taste and couldn't find a good attire for herself if it rewrote the universe in the name of protecting Madoka.

There.
 
So I had time to re-read the update, and I've changed my mind on talking about Sayaka at all.

Homu shifted the focus towards Madoka, and she needs to talk about Madoka, yes? I know she kind of went on a tangent, but she must have done so for a reason.

Maybe we should actually try and make Homura's point work... even if it doesn't really; that doesn't matter, what matters is that Homu is trying to find some common ground.

[X] Accept Homura's point. The circumstances might be different, but the way Mami being Witchbombed would affect you and the way Madoka being Witchbombed would affect Homura... Common ground.
-[X] Reassure Homura.
-[X] You've made huge errors of judgement in the past regarding informational hazards. You're not doing that again. Promise.
-[X] Now hug?

[X] Still with Homura: About Sayaka.
-[X] Promise to not even offer her information about the Witchbomb's mere existence without consent from Homura... and Niko, too.
-[X] Should you all make decisions regarding the Witchbomb only as a group? You'll need to introduce them.

[X] Sayaka.
-[X] Vote in abeyance.

[X] Nadia.
-[X] Ask about Riona, and her not informing you all of her arrival.
Adhoc vote count started by Firnagzen on Jun 4, 2018 at 8:37 PM, finished with 138840 posts and 20 votes.
  • [X] You understand where Homura's coming from. You certainly wouldn't tell Madoka without Homura's explicit agreement.
    -[X] But you did tell Mami that there's another big thing you aren't telling her. If she demanded to know... you don't know. But you don't want to lie to your friends.
    [X] Sayaka wished to be useful.
    -[X] Her power lets her read souls - one of the few explicit limitations your power has. She can make artificial soul gems. You don't think that's a coincidence.
    [X] If Homura thinks the risks of bringing Sayaka in on this are too high, you'll respect that. Sayaka might not be willing to keep the information to herself, though you'd try to impress how dangerous it can be if you told her.
    -[X] But based on what you know, you think Sayaka could handle it. It gives her a villain to oppose in Kyuubey, and a goal to work towards with dewitching.
    [X] Sayaka
    -[X] Vote in abeyance.
    [X] Nadia.
    -[X] Ask about Riona, and her not informing you all of her arrival.
    [X] Homura is right about this. Telling Sayaka would be foolishness.
    -[X] There is an issue -- we made Mami a standing offer that if she wants to know, we'd tell her. We explained the consequences for her of learning very loosely, and she said no.
    --[X] Because Sayaka is also a magical girl with us, we'd be remiss to not make her a similar offer... But the circumstances aren't the same.
    ---[X] She needs to know that she can ask if she must -- it'll keep her from running off --but she really doesn't need to know more than that. You'll make sure it stays that way.
    [X] She needs to know that she can ask if she must --We expect her to eventually run into the facts of life herself.
    -[X] There is an issue -- we made Mami an offer to tell her. We explained the consequences for her of learning very loosely, and she said no.
    --[X] Because Sayaka is also a magical girl with us, we'd be remiss to not make her a similar offer.
    [X] Her power lets her read souls. Girls like Anri exist.
    --[X] Ask Homura to plan what we should do in the event it becomes critical to witchbomb Sayaka.
    -[X] Can she help us get Sayaka ready to carry the secret properly?
    -[X] We need to protect Madoka from contracting, not the witchbomb per se.
    --[X] Ask to talk later about how to prepare Madoka to not overreact if someone else told her the facts of life.
    [X] Sayaka
    -[X] Vote in abeyance.
    -[X] record the Hunt
    [X] Nadia.
    -[X] Ask about Riona's silence.
    [x] "I did tell Mami that there were other infohazards like the lichbomb, and offered to tell her of them. She declined, but I would have told her if she hadn't."
    [x] "And telling Madoka about witches means she can't be tricked into wishing by Kyubey."
    [X] Reassure Homura in earnest.
    [X] Be Contrite and Respectful Brina.
    [X] Suggest or Offer that she watch over riskier SCIENCE like messing with seeds, or that a group activity of her and Niko and Brina might be safer
    -[X] Promise to not do any of this without Homura's (and Niko's) consent.
    [X] She doesn't need to convince us; Witchbombing Madoka would make her want to Contract. We know it's an awful idea.
    -[X] When we told Mami about KB and Soul Gems, we made mistakes: We assumed we understood the damage that would cause, and we did it so we wouldn't feel guilty.
    -[X] We're not repeating those mistakes.
    [X] Explain some of the merits of bombing her. Mainly the risk of her encouraging Madoka that we oversold the downsides of contracting, while she'd be actively helping us dissuase Madoka if she knew
    [X] Quieter tone. Explain how you would do Lichbomb Sayaka.
    -[X] Use you and Mami, and Niko and Kazumi as examples.
    --[X] Sayaka would be informed about the existence of dangerous knowledge and about just how dangerous it is; reassured that progress is being done; and we'd have her think about it for some time before deciding whether she wants to know or not.
    [X] Sayaka
    -[X] Vote in abeyance.
    -[X] Take safety measures and record the Hunt?
    -[X] Give her today's Kyouko's payment.
    [X] Nadia.
    -[X] Ask about Riona, and her not having contacted us yet.
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