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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Yeah, Mami chose not to know. It's different. But we understand why Homura doesn't want Madoka and Sayaka to know, and given that things are going well for now, Homura's desire to not rock the boat is entirely reasonable.

I think we should agree to table the matter until we find out if we can turn Grief Seeds back into soul gems (and understand the full implications of what the details turn out to be).
 
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As I see it, we have put this on the table. It is fine if Homura votes it down for now.

HOWEVER we must balance the future expectations with her current needs.

This comes down to talking to her as an equal.

Just like we are preserving Mami's ability to become independent, Homura wants us to give her an option to be effective.

Hand the problem to her, if it is a real problem. If she wants more help, the stakes of the witchbomb will ensure she asks for more help.

[] Correct the conversation towards better Agency in Homura's favor.

Did we read Sabrina's view of her reaction?
 
[X] If I thought Madoka would react the same way Mami would, then I wouldn't want to tell her, either. I think that Madoka knowing about witches might help keep her from making a wish, especially when I tell her that I'm working on dewitching.

Not really intended as a full vote, but as an approach we might take that someone else can incorporate into their vote.
 
Filraen said:
I completely disagree with this. Mami took it hard and still hasn't recovered completely, that's true, but in events where Mami and other meguca's Soul Gems were involved it'd have been was worse if Mami shouldn't know, like in the Plaides' incident Mami forcing her body not to breath to push through the fight and singlehandedly taking over, or understanding how de-gemming a meguca can shut her down without killing her (like when with Akiko)

After she recovers (and Mami is recovering with Sabrina and the othrs who know and share her condition) knowing about the lichbomb can only be helpful.
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There's benefits and we were right in predicting those, but we completely failed to understand the amount and degree of trauma we were dumping on Mami.

I don't think we even thought about the QBomb on the same level of the Lichbomb and the Witchbomb until after we saw just how broken Mami already was, and how it affected her.

We were expecting things to go bad and become better, but totally and absolutely misjudged how bad the whole thing would affect Mami.

It was absolutely a failure, and we did things horribly wrong.

If we had to do it again, we would do things different. For example, we'd want to keep trying to alienate KB subtly (or as subtle as we ever did), and try to build up Mami, and after working on that some time, then QBomb Mami, help her see that KB is not her friend (but that we, and Madoka and others, are).

And then once Mami recovers from that, then we could offer Lichbomb knowledge.

Instead, what we did was drop both bombs on Mami basically out of the blue, because we felt guilty about keeping secrets. We wanted to help Mami, sure, but it wasn't just about her, and we failed pretty damned hard.
 
Onmur said:
There's benefits and we were right in predicting those, but we completely failed to understand the amount and degree of trauma we were dumping on Mami.
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That'd make it a mistake in the method used to lichbombing, not the lichbombing itself.

If lichbombing itself was truly a mistake you wouldn't be offering "if we had to do it again" examples.
 
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Firnagzen said:
using the katana itself as a prop, which Hitomi seems to appreciate, taking the sword and examining it with interest
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Hora hora.

Does Hitomi perhaps recognize the blade? Know its owner even? :V

Firnagzen said:
Homura jabs a finger at the Clear Seed. "You don't know what that is," she says. "Be careful."

"I will," you affirm. "I will. I promise, Homura. I... you're right. If I don't know what I've woken up in there... I shouldn't just willy-nilly give it a body without being sure first, yeah."
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You know...I'm actually surprised that Homura's reaction wasn't /worse/ . We did pretty much bring up the possibility that it was building a new body, and even say we would try helping (which did intensify her warnings) ...but all she did was warn. Is it purely that Homura trusts us to handle something no worse than a surprise-Hatching with a yawn and a wave, at this point? (Compare to accidentally almost-hatching a seed earlier.... wasn't that Aurora and possibly why she's awake, even? Nearly re-hatched from full grief and THEN we made her a clear seed....)

What I think we should do here, is explicitly invite Homura to stand over us while we do some of these tests, both as security and to bap us when we're dumb or we need interrupting (see also Vulcan Meguca Mind Meld that almost took us out one session) .... and bring up doing science sessions with Niko AND Homura. A second meguca with a good power and experience for these studies (if she isn't aware of Kazumi Magica loop we can tell her... like the results or not Niko has the potential for a related project and thus presumably well equipped for it) , and someone Not-Sabrina doing some of the work (not that we'd necessarily condone that mindset...but emotional Homura aside we are literally too valuable to others health and wellbeing with our Cleansing/Clear-making powers for some risks to be moral of us)

Also, getting back to earlier point..... I think that Homura seriously needs to watch that video of our fight, moreso than just "for lulz" or a cute movie-party moment. Because it will reassure her of our safety in situations like this, AND be another layer of reminder at how adept we are at helping to protect Mado-kaa-san from hostile Meguca (because if we can handle Building-Girl on her prepared-killzone turf, with as OP as she's munchkined the power to be with trapped sunlight and all, we can surely handle a great many lesser threats).

Kaizuki said:
But the big goal of witchbombing Sayaka is to protect Sayaka from the Incubator's machinations
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Firnagzen said:
I guess the bigger issue is not encouraging Madoka..."
"Hrrrrh," Sayaka says. "You and Homura both, huh. I kinda see it, but... We can show her that we're strong and getting stronger."
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This is an argument to bring up, I think. Witchbombing Sayaka may be necessary so that she helps protect Madoka .

Because right now? Sayaka already ignored our warnings, knowing the LichBomb and decided to contract, aaand.... rather than anything catastrophic happening, or even especially bad, the combination of our reactions to her Wish+Powers and the way things have generally gone is that she's seen positive evidence for contracting and few if any negatives.

As it stands she's absolutely a risk for encouraging Momdoka, whereas if she was aware of it (even without any concrete hints as to the exaggerated threat of Godoka specifically) she'd be fully on board with pressuring her not to AND likely influential given her greater closeness and familiarity with her best friend AND the fact that its a new voice (who was recently in her shoes) adding to the chorus of "plz no dont srsly Pinky".

While yes, Sayaka might want to warn Mumdoka directly.... we can make the argument that Madokami reaction would ofc be to try and wish in a way that could help them (copying Us moreso than even Sayaka, likely, since Moedoka heard our wish) and thus telling her about Witchbomb puts her friend at risk of becoming a Witch.
 
Onmur said:
There's benefits and we were right in predicting those, but we completely failed to understand the amount and degree of trauma we were dumping on Mami.

I don't think we even thought about the QBomb on the same level of the Lichbomb and the Witchbomb until after we saw just how broken Mami already was, and how it affected her.

We were expecting things to go bad and become better, but totally and absolutely misjudged how bad the whole thing would affect Mami.

It was absolutely a failure, and we did things horribly wrong.

If we had to do it again, we would do things different. For example, we'd want to keep trying to alienate KB subtly (or as subtle as we ever did), and try to build up Mami, and after working on that some time, then QBomb Mami, help her see that KB is not her friend (but that we, and Madoka and others, are).

And then once Mami recovers from that, then we could offer Lichbomb knowledge.

Instead, what we did was drop both bombs on Mami basically out of the blue, because we felt guilty about keeping secrets. We wanted to help Mami, sure, but it wasn't just about her, and we failed pretty damned hard.
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Quite frankly lichbombing Mami was necessary and I'd do it again the same way it was done, even though it was before my time.

And more than that, I will tell you right now that if you asked her if we should have done it differently, she'd hedge that maybe we could have tried to be gentler about it, but that she needed to know then and that there was no way it hurting her could have been avoided.

It had so many ripples it's not even funny -- most of them centered around Homura. No, I'd do it again in a heartbeat. Different details, if possible, but I'd do it again. And... So would she.

She might prefer death to it turning out that we're secretly evil or something at this point, but if we were secretly evil she'd prefer finding out to not finding out, in the end. She's no Sayaka, but Tomoe Mami has clear morals, even if she wavers on them a little.
 
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Filraen said:
That makes it a mistake in the method used to lichbombing, not the lichbombing itself.
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When I want Sabrina to say to Homura that we were wrong to Lichbomb Mami (and that we won't make the same mistake again), I mean it in context.

We were wrong to do it at the time and in the way we did it. Given our plans for the futre, I figure I can take it as a matter of course that we want pretty much every meguca (safely) Lichbombed at some point, which includes Mami.

I'll rephrase it.

[X] Reassure Homura in earnest.
-[X] She doesn't need to convince us; Witchbombing Madoka would make her want to Contract. We know it's an awful idea.
-[X] When we told Mami about KB and Soul Gems, we made mistakes: We assumed we understood the damage that would cause, and we did it so we wouldn't feel guilty.
-[X] We're not repeating those mistakes.

[X] Quieter tone. Explain how you would do Lichbomb Sayaka.
-[X] Use you and Mami, and Niko and Kazumi as examples.
--[X] Sayaka would be informed about the existence of dangerous knowledge and about just how dangerous it is; reassured that progress is being done; and we'd have her think about it for some time before deciding whether she wants to know or not.

[X] Be Reassuring-Warm-Brina.
-[X] Promise to not do any of this without Homura's (and Niko's) consent.

[X] Sayaka
-[X] Vote in abeyance.
-[X] Take safety measures and record the Hunt?
-[X] Give her today's Kyouko's payment.

[X] Nadia.
-[X] Ask about Riona, and her not having contacted us yet.
 
Kaizuki said:
Quite frankly lichbombing Mami was necessary and I'd do it again the same way it was done, even though it was before my time.

And more than that, I will tell you right now that if you asked her if we should have done it differently, she'd hedge that maybe we could have tried to be gentler about it, but that she needed to know then and that there was no way it hurting her could have been avoided.

It had so many ripples it's not even funny -- most of them centered around Homura. No, I'd do it again in a heartbeat. Different details, if possible, but I'd do it again. And... So would she.

She might prefer death to it turning out that we're secretly evil or something at this point, but if we were secretly evil she'd prefer finding out to not finding out, in the end. She's no Sayaka, but Tomoe Mami has clear morals, even if she wavers on them a little.
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If you asked her, the response would go something like "I was encouraging Madoka and Sayaka to contract! What are you saying, Sabrina?"
 
Kaizuki said:
Quite frankly lichbombing Mami was necessary and I'd do it again the same way it was done, even though it was before my time.

And more than that, I will tell you right now that if you asked her if we should have done it differently, she'd hedge that maybe we could have tried to be gentler about it, but that she needed to know then and that there was no way it hurting her could have been avoided.

It had so many ripples it's not even funny -- most of them centered around Homura. No, I'd do it again in a heartbeat. Different details, if possible, but I'd do it again. And... So would she.

She might prefer death to it turning out that we're secretly evil or something at this point, but if we were secretly evil she'd prefer finding out to not finding out, in the end. She's no Sayaka, but Tomoe Mami has clear morals, even if she wavers on them a little.
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We did it in pretty much the worst way possible.

Combo double bomb drop.

What you are saying right now is basically The Reasons why we did it back then. Those reasons aren't wrong, but there were so many more facts we needed to consider in order to do things right, and we were completely ignorant of those, or understimated them greatly.

Being gentler about it is a huge understatement. If we could redo, I don't think we would choose to break Mami like we did.
 
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... My first reaction to that ( Limpet Mami 2: Electric Boogaloo) scene was something like:
"With Sabrina nearby, Mami can go insane before Witching out."

Sayaka has a temperament she had shown on many occasions while under duress. If we Witchbomb her, we'll need prepare for this like a freaking bomb squad.
 
Onmur said:
-[X] She doesn't need to convince us; Witchbombing Madoka would make her want to Contract. We know it's an awful idea.
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I've already pointed out that canon shows that this is explicitly not true. When she found out the witchbomb in Episode 9, Madoka went from being willing to contract for Sayaka's sake, even knowing the lichbomb, to calling Kyubey the enemy of humanity and throwing him out of her room. She goes along with Kyouko's risky plan to try to get through to Octavia rather than wishing Sayaka back to normal, when she'd been about to do the latter an episode before. Finding out the witchbomb put her off contracting until the situation became hopeless.

Right now, there's nothing keeping Madoka from making a contract if she thinks it'll help someone. She has no idea that by doing so, she'll actually be dooming the person that she's trying to help, along with everyone else. Knowing the real risks can only reduce her willingness to contract.

Keeping potentials ignorant of the true consequences of making a contract is pivotal to Kyubey's sale pitch. Perpetuating that ignorance is doing Kyubey a favor.

Homura's unwillingness to tell Madoka the truth isn't coming from a rational place. Withholding information and keeping Madoka ignorant has never worked, it just makes her easy prey for Kyubey. It's just more of her "I don't want Madoka involved with magical girls" approach. We already pointed out to her that that's impossible: Kyubey's already sniffing around her, and her friends are magical girls. It's no longer possible for keeping Madoka oblivious to work. This attitude of Homura's is something we should be helping her work past, not something we should reinforce.


Finding out unpleasant truths can be painful sometimes, yes. But what people don't know absolutely can hurt them. Keeping Mami ignorant of Kyubey's deceptions and the lichbomb could have killed her and no matter how traumatic it was to find out that she'd been lied to, I don't think she would ever choose to go back to not knowing that truth.
 
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You know something?

Homura is just right about this.

Put away your excitement and your enthusiasm and just do a cost-benefit.

Given that Sayaka already knows we're keeping secrets --we've done the privacy bubble chat thing in front of her at Asunaro...

Cost: risk of exposing people to the witchbomb via a vector that is known to be impulsive and judgemental.

Benefits: ???

The only real problem is that we made the offer to Mami.

So, I think this is going to be my vote:

[X] Homura is right about this. Telling Sayaka would be foolishness.
-[X] There is an issue -- we made Mami a standing offer that if she wants to know, we'd tell her. We explained the consequences for her of learning very loosely, and she said no.
--[X] Because Sayaka is also a magical girl with us, we'd be remiss to not make her a similar offer... But the circumstances aren't the same.
---[X] She needs to know that she can ask if she must -- it'll keep her from running off --but she really doesn't need to know more than that. You'll make sure it stays that way.

This is how we should handle this and how we should handle Sayaka. We should raise this with her on the way to Kyouko after school, and we should use the following points: 1) If she must know we'll tell her, because there's a real argument she has a right to the knowledge if she wants it, 2) we really, really do not want to tell her, 3) she could, for example, break or kill Mami -- and most meguca, really -- with a slip of the tongue with this information.

That sort of attitude should produce a conversation where we convince Sayaka not to ask as long as we adopt the right tone. Paint it as us being somewhat afraid that she'll actually ask, but not afraid that she'd be mad at us over it. And then... And then if it comes to it, point at Kyousuke and make a comparison with Mami.

It won't even be disingenuous. If Sayaka really wants to know *that* bad we probably should tell her, and we're afraid of telling her for exactly those reasons.
 
[X] Homura is right about this. Telling Sayaka would be foolishness.
-[X] There is an issue -- we made Mami a standing offer that if she wants to know, we'd tell her. We explained the consequences for her of learning very loosely, and she said no.
--[X] Because Sayaka is also a magical girl with us, we'd be remiss to not make her a similar offer... But the circumstances aren't the same.
---[X] She needs to know that she can ask if she must -- it'll keep her from running off --but she really doesn't need to know more than that. You'll make sure it stays that way.

I think that's workable, the reasoning makes a lot of sense.
 
The Narrator said:
I've already pointed out that canon shows that this is explicitly not true. When she found out the witchbomb in Episode 9, Madoka went from being willing to contract for Sayaka's sake, even knowing the lichbomb, to calling Kyubey the enemy of humanity and throwing him out of her room. She goes along with Kyouko's risky plan to try to get through to Octavia rather than wishing Sayaka back to normal, when she'd been about to do the latter an episode before. Finding out the witchbomb put her off contracting until the situation became hopeless.

Right now, there's nothing keeping Madoka from making a contract if she thinks it'll help someone. She has no idea that by doing so, she'll actually be dooming the person that she's trying to help, along with everyone else. Knowing the real risks can only reduce her willingness to contract.

Keeping potentials ignorant of the true consequences of making a contract is pivotal to Kyubey's sale pitch. Perpetuating that ignorance is doing Kyubey a favor.

Homura's unwillingness to tell Madoka the truth isn't coming from a rational place. Withholding information and keeping Madoka ignorant has never worked, it just makes her easy prey for Kyubey. It's just more of her "I don't want Madoka involved with magical girls" approach. We already pointed out to her that that's impossible: Kyubey's already sniffing around her, and her friends are magical girls. It's no longer possible for keeping Madoka oblivious to work. This attitude of Homura's is something we should be helping her work past, not something we should reinforce.
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I think the context we've built right now, in which we seem capable of taking care of everything on the magical side, makes Madoka less likely to contract. Letting her know about the Witchbomb, a problem so horrible and difficult to solve, would make it more likely for Madoka to Contract, because then we're wouldn't look like we're so much in control, and Madoka would have a better idea of the sheer suffering so many are going through.

I think that would raise the urge for her to Contract. She could solve that horrifying issue right now! So tempting. (In fact, some posters here would rather Madoka did basically that, I think?).

About the canon situation... I think Madoka became aware just how out of her depth she was, and... wanted to make the right Wish. Which she basically did, with a couple of fatal flaws.

Kaizuki said:
You know something?

Homura is just right about this.

Put away your excitement and your enthusiasm and just do a cost-benefit.

Given that Sayaka already knows we're keeping secrets --we've done the privacy bubble chat thing in front of her at Asunaro...

Cost: risk of exposing people to the witchbomb via a vector that is known to be impulsive and judgemental.

Benefits: ???

The only real problem is that we made the offer to Mami.

So, I think this is going to be my vote:

[X] Homura is right about this. Telling Sayaka would be foolishness.
-[X] There is an issue -- we made Mami a standing offer that if she wants to know, we'd tell her. We explained the consequences for her of learning very loosely, and she said no.
--[X] Because Sayaka is also a magical girl with us, we'd be remiss to not make her a similar offer... But the circumstances aren't the same.
---[X] She needs to know that she can ask if she must -- it'll keep her from running off --but she really doesn't need to know more than that. You'll make sure it stays that way.

This is how we should handle this and how we should handle Sayaka. We should raise this with her on the way to Kyouko after school, and we should use the following points: 1) If she must know we'll tell her, because there's a real argument she has a right to the knowledge if she wants it, 2) we really, really do not want to tell her, 3) she could, for example, break or kill Mami -- and most meguca, really -- with a slip of the tongue with this information.

That sort of attitude should produce a conversation where we convince Sayaka not to ask as long as we adopt the right tone. Paint it as us being somewhat afraid that she'll actually ask, but not afraid that she'd be mad at us over it. And then... And then if it comes to it, point at Kyousuke and make a comparison with Mami.

It won't even be disingenuous. If Sayaka really wants to know *that* bad we probably should tell her, and we're afraid of telling her for exactly those reasons.
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I can see the 'telling Sayaka would be foolishness' argument. I don't think 'we told Mami so we have to tell Sayaka' is 100% true. In fact, that sort of thinking helped lead to us bombing Mami's mind to smithereens. We could just not tell Sayaka.

Like, if we can be convinced (or just enough people vote for) that Witchbombing Sayaka is Always Wrong, then maybe we shouldn't even hint at mentioning it.

I think the rest of your vote is basically what we were already planning, in different words.
 
Onmur said:
I think the context we've built right now, in which we seem capable of taking care of everything on the magical side, makes Madoka less likely to contract.
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For now. But Kyubey only needs to arrange to put one of her loved ones in peril at a time that no one else can intervene for that all to fall apart. Remember, in Madoka's mind, the only cost of contracting is to herself, and she'd pay it gladly for the sake of another.


Onmur said:
I think that would raise the urge for her to Contract. She could solve that horrifying issue right now! So tempting.
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Any witchbombing of Madoka would also be a Gretchenbombing: she would have to understand that because of her high potential, her contracting would kill everyone.

This will inevitably lead to explaining that Kyubey doesn't care about human life, is only in it to feed off the energy he gets from contracts, and will gladly trade the whole planet for Madoka's contract.

Really, if we could just get Homura to agree to letting us show Madoka Episode 10 of PMMM, that would explain everything. Including how important she is to Homura.


Kaizuki said:
Cost: risk of exposing people to the witchbomb via a vector that is known to be impulsive and judgemental.
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You've pretty much hit on my main concern with witchbombing Sayaka: I don't know if she's capable of keeping it a secret.
 
If we tell Sayaka about why we don't want Madoka contracting after we witchbomb her, anybody have any ideas on framing? Scenarios 3 and 4 seem twitchworthy for Homura if she's involved.

I'm thinking...

Madoka Contracting has one of four results.
1. Madoka bootstraps herself to godhood and neutralizes her witch. It's vulnerable to incubator subversion and may paradox the current versions of us out of existence given the only scheme you can think of to do that, though it has potential to improve things on the grand scale from a utilitarian perspective. Since you're sure we all like living this is unacceptable.
2. Madoka's witch destroys the world. Unacceptable for the same reasons as 1, and because nobody deserves witchification.
3. Madoka commits suicide before witchification. Utterly unacceptable.
4. Madoka successfully becomes another Sabrina.

Scenario 4 is not worth it, and you'd consider it a failure on your part if risking Armageddon to make it happen became necessary.
 
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Conjured Blade said:
If we tell Sayaka about why we don't want Madoka contracting after we witchbomb her, anybody have any ideas on framing?
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I should think that the witchbomb would be all the reason that anyone would need to not want anyone to contract ever again.

Sayaka's a lot of thing, but she's not so selfish and callous that her response to finding out that magical girls become monsters would be to want her best friend to consign herself to the same fate.

And even without the witchbomb, if you tell someone that Madoka's potential could destroy the world, you'd expect them to not want her to contract. Because, y'know, they live in the world and don't want it destroyed. (With some rare exceptions, like omnicidal nihilists and Shinji Ikari after striking out with a girl.)
 
The Narrator said:
I've already pointed out that canon shows that this is explicitly not true. When she found out the witchbomb in Episode 9, Madoka went from being willing to contract for Sayaka's sake, even knowing the lichbomb, to calling Kyubey the enemy of humanity and throwing him out of her room. She goes along with Kyouko's risky plan to try to get through to Octavia rather than wishing Sayaka back to normal, when she'd been about to do the latter an episode before. Finding out the witchbomb put her off contracting until the situation became hopeless.
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This is explicitly not true; Madoka uses a wish to de-witch Sayaka in multiple timelines, including The Different Story. She had a period of lashing out at Kyubey and sulking, then Kyoko offers her hope.

You know what the difference between the and TDS is? In the latter, Kyoko is fucking dead before they could try their anime stunt.

That said, the rest of your post is fairly valid.
 
AuraTwilight said:
This is explicitly not true; Madoka uses a wish to de-witch Sayaka in multiple timelines, including The Different Story.
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Like I said, until the situation became hopeless. She doesn't wish Sayaka back right away in TDS, she waits until after Mami has committed suicide and Walpurgisnacht is coming with only Homura to face it. (And again, she's not aware of any world-threatening consequences for doing so.) And she doesn't contract in Homura's Revenge until Homura is killed.
 
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