Remove ads

Dragon Ball: After the End

Voting is open
Reader mode
argentorum said:
I don't believe that this is the case. We've sight scryed into Jaffur's soul multiple times now. There's no reason to think that Dazarel being inside our own soul will prevent Kakara from doing something similar. In addition, Kakara's mentor has said that sight works better if there are fewer degrees of separation between the seer and the target. It's hard to find fewer degrees of separation than sealed inside the seer's soul. It will probably make scrying about him and his future actions much easier.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
It's fundamentally sight based, the name is not for show. While it can do things actual sight can't, tell me, do you have an easy time looking at the inside of your own body?

If we have to stack scrying the inside of our own body/into the seal to then Truth Sight him, that adds a layer of complication. Note I did not say 'make impossible', I said complicate. That was intentional and carefully considered. Given Seers operate on a form of limited resource, complicating our Sight needlessly would be undesirable.
 
argentorum said:
I find it far more likely that he just... doesn't interact at all. Sealing him inside of us will force interaction that he would probably avoid otherwise.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Why are you assuming his default state would be non-interaction? He's been pretty chatty during the fight. I'd expect him to interact with the people around him if for no other reason then to relive boredom.

Besides if he's going to shut down and not talk then weather he's in our head or not is irrelevant, he can not talk ether place easily enough.

Also if we don't dedicate actions to forcing him to talk then he'll just sit in solitude, while if he's chibi then there's the options that someone else could befriend him, even if he decides to hate us.
 
Last edited:
Just a friendly reminder that whichever way the vote goes, it's not the end of the world and the quest will still be fun.

That said... I WANT A PET DRAGON, KYUUBI STINKS.
 
Blonddude42 said:
Hahahaha!!!!!

Thank you @Simon_Jester your example being one of the worst examples you could use to prove the point you're trying to make was hilarious.

Challenger wasn't the fault of the engineers. It was totally management. The engineers knew something would go wrong* if they launched that day -- it was too cold for some of the materials used.

Management decided to ignore the engineers and launch anyway.


Take everything you think that can go wrong. Eliminate every one of them that would also cause another form of the sealing to go wrong. Eliminate the ones that would be a threat even if we didn't have a dragon in our head. Compare the probability of those to the probability of the dragon breaking Op Sec for us breaking Jaffur out of The Seal. Because you can't claim that there can be something that can beat the seal without also considering the fact that the dragon has a non zero chance of knowing about our conspiracy. Now consider the chance the dragon doesn't know about that, but does know about our rift with Dandeer and dislike for Jaffur's Seal (or learns about it before we set things off). Now consider the other ways he could cause problems as a chibi dragon (like breaking the masquerade)

I don't think you can say that the probability of there being a problem with him in our head is significantly greater than him causing us a problem as a chibi dragon

*And people die when something goes wrong during launch
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Ohhh, I didn't even think about that.

Yeah, we've gotta either kill the dragon or seal him in our head -- otherwise he might let on about the Conspiracy.
 
Inserted tally

46.25 vs 46
Adhoc vote count started by Gore17 on Mar 2, 2018 at 1:51 AM, finished with 352 posts and 82 votes.
Click to expand...
 
Artanis Prime said:
Why are you assuming his default state would be non-interaction? He's been pretty chatty during the fight. I'd expect him to interact with the people around him if for no other reason then to relive boredom.

Besides if he's going to shut down and not talk then weather he's in our head or not is irrelevant, he can not talk ether place easily enough.

Also if we don't dedicate actions to forcing him to talk then he'll just sit in solitude, while if he's chibi then there's the options that someone else could befriend him, even if he decides to hate us.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
He was chatty in calling all of us beneath him and raging at the world. I doubt that he'll want to talk with people for a long while because he views all of us beneath him, and there are still other things he can do in the outside world for entertainment. Like fucking the masquerade royally, which would be an interesting plot point in the Chinese sense, but not one I'm particularly eager to experience.

The big point of sealing him in our head is that he'll probably come around a great deal faster for having no other options for entertainment. There's only so far away he can sulk in that situation, which I think is better.

And finally... I don't really think there's going to be anyone who wants to befriend him after this. Not given the cross section of people who both know about him and are going to be allowed to even talk to this walking info hazard.
 
argentorum said:
I really don't see how imprisoning him inside of us (arguably the most compassionate individual on this entire planet towards him) is any less moral than just killing him. In fact, letting him out and about is probably less moral. Because it means that he's going to be stuck in a hostile society that has every reason to abuse and ostracize him while Daz has no power to fight back. That type of isolation seems more damaging than only being able to directly interact with us. Kakara is much nicer than the rest of Sayans are going to be.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
You shoot yourself in the foot with this. But to go point by point: I never actually talked about imprisoning him inside us being less moral than killing him. (It is, but that's not really a relevant point to the discussion. Not sure why you mentioned this.)

Your argument for the sealing him inside us being more moral is because the rest of our society would ostracize him, isolating him. He would still be able to talk to kakara, even if he wasn't sealed inside him, for one, invalidating that argument. If they do ignore him? Then he's no worse off in that respect than if he was sealed inside her.

And nothing you said addressed the whole Stockholm syndrome and being locked inside kakara's mind aspect. When locked inside kakara, He can only interact with kakara when she chooses, can only see the outside world when she chooses, etc.


And in the event people want to reform him... If he's locked inside our head, even if we reform him, people aren't going to know that. They won't see him slowly change. We'll just pop up one day and say "It's cool guys! The dragon that tried to kill us all is totally friendly now!" And then he'll face all the same ostracization and isolation from the sayins, and nice and fresh.
argentorum said:
The big point of sealing him in our head is that he'll probably come around a great deal faster for having no other options for entertainment. There's only so far away he can sulk in that situation, which I think is better.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
....Please clarify. Are you arguing as the stockholm syndrome as being a good thing? Because I feel like you really need to think the morality of it through again.
 
Last edited:
[X] Seal him in your own head. You will be his prison and his warden, and see what benefits you can gain from having a dragon chained in your body (x1.25, from, "ambitious." Middling harshness, Dazarel is as restricted as the inanimate object version but has you on hand for conversation and interesting experiences, renders him completely harmless, may or may not allow Kakara to exploit him for power).
 
[X] Seal him in your own head. You will be his prison and his warden, and see what benefits you can gain from having a dragon chained in your body (x1.25, from, "ambitious." Middling harshness, Dazarel is as restricted as the inanimate object version but has you on hand for conversation and interesting experiences, renders him completely harmless, may or may not allow Kakara to exploit him for power).
 
@PoptartProdigy
If I had to make a criticism about the last chapter, it's about Dandeer leaving in a huff.

I mean, some people may not like her, but she's still a woman who had the talent and discipline to become a Master Sorcerer, and the political skill to make it all the way to commanding most of them in a combat situation. She'd know better than to do this normally. Let alone abandoning the guy whose political support is what's keeping her Regent, as well as the other three Super Saiyans.

I don't see a situation where she walks off while the job is yet unfinished. Especially given how she's been bleeding political support; she can't really afford to lose much more. Of course, Kakara is not a reliable observer, so something else could be up. Who knows.

Anyway, vote.

VOTE
[X] Seal him in a less imposing physical body, with his powers sealed as well (somewhat harsh, renders him almost completely harmless while still giving him physical freedom. Implement chibi Dazarel).

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
If we are to have any hope of converting him, exposing him to a variety of people over time is more likely to build empathy for all life rather than putting him on the All Kakara, All The Time channel, which might make him sympathetic towards Kakara, but isn't going to do much for his relations with everyone else.

And in my opinion, I just think it makes for a better story than turning Kakara into an ersatz jinchuuriki. And allows the GM the freedom to shunt the dragon aside when they don't want to write about it.
argentorum said:
And finally... I don't really think there's going to be anyone who wants to befriend him after this. Not given the cross section of people who both know about him and are going to be allowed to even talk to this walking info hazard.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
For one thing, he hasn't actually killed anyone on Garenhold. Not for lack of trying, but close only counts in hand grenades and nuclear weapons.
And for another, you forget precisely how bloody-handed Saiyan historically are.
Look at Gold Man Genocide's example. Or the original Vegeta.
Adhoc vote count started by uju32 on Mar 2, 2018 at 2:13 AM, finished with 362 posts and 85 votes.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
zephraim said:
We use the Sight to 'see' into Juffur's head every chance we get, so yes we can See into people the only way that counts in this discussion. This isn't something to argue about unless I've misunderstood your argument.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

You have, in fact, misunderstood;

Terrabrand said:
If we have to stack scrying the inside of our own body/into the seal to then Truth Sight him, that adds a layer of complication. Note I did not say 'make impossible', I said complicate. That was intentional and carefully considered. Given Seers operate on a form of limited resource, complicating our Sight needlessly would be undesirable.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
As I already said, it is an added layer of difficulty. Moreover, magic is on the list of things that potentially block the Sight, and ergo is a potential concern for 'plan that banks on Sight being infallible' (which to be blunt no plan should ever count on it to that degree. Consider it strong evidence, yes, rule out all possibility it's wrong, no.)
 
[X] Seal him in a less imposing physical body, with his powers sealed as well (somewhat harsh, renders him almost completely harmless while still giving him physical freedom. Implement chibi Dazarel).
 
redzonejoe said:
Just a friendly reminder that whichever way the vote goes, it's not the end of the world and the quest will still be fun.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
An excellent point which I laud you for making! And one of which more people might take note.

Seriously, folks, we're getting a little heated.
Gore17 said:
Wait, thought. If/when he reforms, how are we going to unseal him with the various options?

I suppose with sealing him inside ourself, and our control of the Seal, we could in theory make it "porous" to the point it vanishes and he's released, but what about if we shrink him down to size?

Hmm.... I suppose that we could include a write-in for the chibify option that allows us to release or restrict him at will. Something like this?

-[] Include a way for you to loosen or strengthen the seal on his body and power at will.

@PoptartProdigy, thoughts? Also, sorry for calling upon you so much today. :oops:
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
S'in your head, which makes it yours. Tell it to fuck off and not come back, and off it goes.
uju32 said:
@PoptartProdigy
If I had to make a criticism about the last chapter, it's about Dandeer leaving in a huff.

I mean, some people may not like her, but she's still a woman who had the talent and discipline to become a Master Sorcerer, and the political skill to make it all the way to commanding most of them in a combat situation. She'd know better than to do this normally. Let alone abandoning the guy whose political support is what's keeping her Regent, as well as the other three Super Saiyans.

I don't see a situation where she walks off while the job is yet unfinished. Especially given how she's been bleeding political support; she can't really afford to lose much more. Of course, Kakara is not a reliable observer, so something else could be up. Who knows.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
An insightful point!

Makes one think (or it should).
 
Alanek said:
....Please clarify. Are you arguing as the stockholm syndrome as being a good thing? Because I feel like you really need to think the morality of it through again.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
In the context of an otherwise murderous person, yes, I would say that stockholm syndrome is unmitigatedly good.
 
Alanek said:
....Please clarify. Are you arguing as the stockholm syndrome as being a good thing? Because I feel like you really need to think the morality of it through again.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Well, if you get right down to it, what is the difference between say, Stockholm syndrom and the effects of prolonged confinement in an insane asylum? You'll probably get a rather similar result. Now, clearly there are some differences, but I believe that you're simplifying by calling it 'stockholm syndrome'. Intent and end goal both matter. And if confining him inside of us is better for rehabilitating him (which I do believe) then I think it would be the moral option.

As for society isolating him, I feel like the possibility of abuse and harm, especially physical is more important than just the idea of isolation. He's also much more likely to be killed by just someone who has a grudge. Or, you know, a Yammar Vegeta who knows we basically have no form of recourse that doesn't make us seem petty after he authorizes a covert hit. So leaving him like that is endangering him as well. As the one who's putting him in this situation, we have a responsibility to his well being, but with him having his own body and likely trying to avoid us that becomes much more difficult. On top of that, it may be time consuming to a point that we'll have to devote more time to that than our other duties. Also no a good outcome. So, on the balance, having him secure while still giving him some access to the outside world is the best option.

uju32 said:
For one thing, he hasn't actually killed anyone on Garenhold. Not for lack of trying, but close only counts in hand grenades and nuclear weapons.
And for another, you forget precisely how bloody-handed Saiyan are.
Look at Gold Man Genocide's example.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Except that he beat the stuffing out of all five members of the royalty. Pretty sure people aren't going to be on board with that. In addition, saiyan society is not on board with the massacre of house Talt, so taking that as a reason that they'd be gung ho about Dazarel seems suspect.

Finally, there's a limited group of people that are going to be allowed to interact with him, because as a telepath he's a massive info hazard. The people who would be cleared to talk with him are thus probably confined to the people he did beat the crap out of and those in close confidence therein. In short, the people that actually do have a genuine reason to hate him.

uju32 said:
And now I'm paranoid.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Quick! Locate Jaron!
 
Something else worth noting about sealing the dragon in Kakara's head...

It means that any saiyan conspiracies against us have to take that into account; no killing us any more :p
 
Terrabrand said:
You have, in fact, misunderstood;


As I already said, it is an added layer of difficulty. Moreover, magic is on the list of things that potentially block the Sight, and ergo is a potential concern for 'plan that banks on Sight being infallible' (which to be blunt no plan should ever count on it to that degree. Consider it strong evidence, yes, rule out all possibility it's wrong, no.)
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

My mistake then. However, isn't the use of any sight and the intel it can potentially provide better than nothing at all? Or am I not seeing the point you're trying to make.

Disclaimer: I have been up for 48 hours so I might not be reading things correctly.
 
zephraim said:
My mistake then. However, isn't the use of any sight and the intel it can potentially provide better than nothing at all? Or am I not seeing the point you're trying to make.

Disclaimer: I have been up for 48 hours so I might not be reading things correctly.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I was counterpointing an assertion we can just use the Sight to check that the Dragon in our head is telling the truth. While, yes, it's a tool, it's likely to be more effective with 'chibi' Dazarel and in any event will be imperfect.
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Voting is open
Remove ads
Back
Top