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[X] Seal him in your own head. You will be his prison and his warden, and see what benefits you can gain from having a dragon chained in your body (x1.25, from, "ambitious." Middling harshness, Dazarel is as restricted as the inanimate object version but has you on hand for conversation and interesting experiences, renders him completely harmless, may or may not allow Kakara to exploit him for power).

Changing my vote.
 
I am very clear on the sorcerors being well-trained experts who have good reasons to believe what they believe.

Then again, so were the engineers who designed the Challenger space shuttle rocket boosters to be safe, the Titanic to be unsinkable, and who set up a whole infrastructure around the use of leaded gasoline at a time when lead was already known to be poisonous.

Thus, I acknowledge that their advice is probably sound, and certainly won't be wildly off the mark under anything like normal operating conditions... But view it with a bit of trepidation and caution.
Simon, I've explained that the problem is more akin to two plus two than the Challenger boosters. This isn't a rocket scientist saying, "Yes, all things considered, the boosters should be safe," it's them saying, "This thing will work specifically because, 'two plus two equals four,' is a logically-sound proof for the concept."

If you doubt that they are correct, that is again your right, that is...quite a lot...of caution to take.
 
I am very clear on the sorcerors being well-trained experts who have good reasons to believe what they believe.

Then again, so were the engineers who designed the Challenger space shuttle rocket boosters to be safe, the Titanic to be unsinkable, and who set up a whole infrastructure around the use of leaded gasoline at a time when lead was already known to be poisonous.

Thus, I acknowledge that their advice is probably sound, and certainly won't be wildly off the mark under anything like normal operating conditions... But view it with a bit of trepidation and caution.
This isn't that. It is the magical equivalent of 2+2. Please stop treating it as anything but that. It's not good that you keep ignoring this fact and insisting upon your own entirely unsupported view.
 
mmm, my concern is more along the lines of the fact we're sealing it in our heads for power.

I understand that when the wall is up, it's up. But also that we make the wall permeable to let it's power through.... but I'm not seeing anything on the seal giving us proper control over said power; nor do I see any mention of that in the GM posts.
 
Simon, I've explained that the problem is more akin to two plus two than the Challenger boosters. This isn't a rocket scientist saying, "Yes, all things considered, the boosters should be safe," it's them saying, "This thing will work specifically because, 'two plus two equals four,' is a logically-sound proof for the concept."

If you doubt that they are correct, that is again your right, that is...quite a lot...of caution to take.
I think he's more worried about someone with the power to warp reality so that two plus two equals three, or someone comes along who then goes "and four minus four equals zero".
 
mmm, my concern is more along the lines of the fact we're sealing it in our heads for power.
That's not why I'm voting for it. I would not be voting for it if Dazarel explicitly did not care which of the two was chosen. Given that, we're more likely to rehabilitate him with him in Kakara's head because she's a diplomatic genius.
 
People, it is now 41.25 versus 41.

This shit is great. I've honestly stopped caring which wins at this point, so long as people voting for what they think would be best rather then out of fear.
 
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mmm, my concern is more along the lines of the fact we're sealing it in our heads for power.

I understand that when the wall is up, it's up. But also that we make the wall permeable to let it's power through.... but I'm not seeing anything on the seal giving us proper control over said power; nor do I see any mention of that in the GM posts.
The only situations where we attempt to use the power is after we've made sure it can be used safely or if we have no other option. In the case of the former, then it's safe to use and we control the power, simple as that. In the case of the latter, it means that it would be the best/only way to prevent something very bad from happening.
 
[X] Seal him in a less imposing physical body, with his powers sealed as well (somewhat harsh, renders him almostcompletely harmless while still giving him physical freedom. Implement chibi Dazarel).
 
[X] Seal him in a less imposing physical body, with his powers sealed as well (somewhat harsh, renders him almost completely harmless while still giving him physical freedom. Implement chibi Dazarel).

Lets not put an evil world destroying dragon in our head.
 
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Well hrmm this is close, I didn't want Kakara to be the kind of person who'd essentially eat someones soul for power Majin Buu style, and if we go down this route that's essentially what we're doing, after all if we succeed in talking him around are all the people voting for this options going to agree to let him out and lose whatever power up we get outta this?
 
mmm, my concern is more along the lines of the fact we're sealing it in our heads for power.

I understand that when the wall is up, it's up. But also that we make the wall permeable to let it's power through.... but I'm not seeing anything on the seal giving us proper control over said power; nor do I see any mention of that in the GM posts.
Honestly I think that's a valid concern, and it ties into the point I made earlier: that the Seal is reliable on the assumption that we don't poke holes in it, and we're encouraging people to seal the dragon into Kakara precisely because we want to poke holes in the Seal for our own benefit.

I think he's more worried about someone with the power to warp reality so that two plus two equals three, or someone comes along who then goes "and four minus four equals zero".
Yes.

Or I'm worried about it turning out that Garenhulder sorcerors are using a system of magic theory that is equivalent to Newton's laws, while in reality the laws of magic are more complicated and are the equivalent of quantum mechanics and relativity. And that there are a vast wealth of amazing things that can be done purely with 'Newtonian' magic, but that doesn't mean everything in magic behaves the way 'Newtonian' magic predicts it should.

A lot of things that in Newtonian physics reduce to "this is true because two plus two equals four" turn out to be actively wrong or misleading in reality. Usually things that are outside of Sir Isaac Newton's experience... As, come to think of it, dragons and Spirit Saiyans are for Garenhulder sorcerors.

And 71 voters.

On the other hand, those were all large, complicated procedures, when by all indications the Sealing is simple, and thus harder to screw up. In fact, based on what was said, Dandeers seal was probably more complicated.

Like, if it has a 1 in 10,000,000 chance of going wrong, well, you have 1 in 645 chance of dying in a car accident. Yet we use cars every day.
Very few high-energy or large-scale systems have a one in ten million chance of failing, as measured over a human lifetime. In fact, probabilities like "one in ten million" tend to come up only when dealing with monstrously unlikely coincidences (i.e. getting struck by lightning or winning the lottery), or when people are spitballing numbers for the probability of an event and falling prey of a simple problem:

People are hella overconfident. It's a near universal bias.

Quoting someone here.
Last week, I mentioned that Dylan Matthews' suggestion that maybe there was only 10^-67 chance you could affect AI risk was stupendously overconfident. I mentioned that was thousands of lower than than the chance, per second, of getting simultaneously hit by a tornado, meteor, and al-Qaeda bomb, while also winning the lottery twice in a row. Unless you're comfortable with that level of improbability, you should stop using numbers like 10^-67.

But maybe it sounds like "one in a million" is much safer. That's only 10^-6, after all, way below the tornado-meteor-terrorist-double-lottery range…

So let's talk about overconfidence.

Nearly everyone is very very very overconfident. We know this from experiments where people answer true/false trivia questions, then are asked to state how confident they are in their answer. If people's confidence was well-calibrated, someone who said they were 99% confident (ie only 1% chance they're wrong) would get the question wrong only 1% of the time. In fact, people who say they are 99% confident get the question wrong about 20% of the time.

It gets worse. People who say there's only a 1 in 100,000 chance they're wrong? Wrong 15% of the time. One in a million? Wrong 5% of the time. They're not just overconfident, they are fifty thousand times as confident as they should be.

This is not just a methodological issue. Test confidence in some other clever way, and you get the same picture. For example, one experiment asked people how many numbers there were in the Boston phone book. They were instructed to set a range, such that the true number would be in their range 98% of the time (ie they would only be wrong 2% of the time). In fact, they were wrong 40% of the time. Twenty times too confident! What do you want to bet that if they'd been asked for a range so wide there was only a one in a million chance they'd be wrong, at least five percent of them would have bungled it?

Yet some people think they can predict the future course of AI with one in a million accuracy!

Imagine if every time you said you were sure of something to the level of 999,999/1 million, and you were right, the Probability Gods gave you a dollar. Every time you said this and you were wrong, you lost $1 million (if you don't have the cash on hand, the Probability Gods offer a generous payment plan at low interest). You might feel like getting some free cash for the parking meter by uttering statements like "The sun will rise in the east tomorrow" or "I won't get hit by a meteorite" without much risk. But would you feel comfortable predicting the course of AI over the next century? What if you noticed that most other people only managed to win $20 before they slipped up? Remember, if you say even one false statement under such a deal, all of your true statements you've said over years and years of perfect accuracy won't be worth the hole you've dug yourself.

Or – let me give you another intuition pump about how hard this is. Bayesian and frequentist statistics are pretty much the same thing [citation needed] – when I say "50% chance this coin will land heads", that's the same as saying "I expect it to land heads about one out of every two times." By the same token, "There's only a one in a million chance that I'm wrong about this" is the same as "I expect to be wrong on only one of a million statements like this that I make."

What do a million statements look like? Suppose I can fit twenty-five statements onto the page of an average-sized book. I start writing my predictions about scientific and technological progress in the next century. "I predict there will not be superintelligent AI." "I predict there will be no simple geoengineering fix for global warming." "I predict no one will prove P = NP." War and Peace, one of the longest books ever written, is about 1500 pages. After you write enough of these statements to fill a War and Peace sized book, you've made 37,500. You would need to write about 27 War and Peace sized books – enough to fill up a good-sized bookshelf – to have a million statements.
So, if you want to be confident to the level of one-in-a-million that there won't be superintelligent AI next century, you need to believe that you can fill up 27 War and Peace sized books with similar predictions about the next hundred years of technological progress – and be wrong – at most – once!

...

A claim like "one in a million chance of X" not only implies that your model is strong enough to spit out those kinds of numbers, but that there's only a one in a million chance you're using the wrong model, or missing something, or screwing up the calculations.

A few years ago, a group of investment bankers came up with a model for predicting the market, and used it to design a trading strategy which they said would meet certain parameters. In fact, they said that there was only a one in 10^135 chance it would fail to meet those parameters during a given year. A human just uttered the probability "1 in 10^135", so you can probably guess what happened. The very next year was the 2007 financial crisis, the model wasn't prepared to deal with the extraordinary fallout, the strategy didn't meet its parameters, and the investment bank got clobbered.

...

[snip further exposition and commentary]
Suffice to say, people say they are 99% sure of being correct in situations where they are, in fact, only about 80% likely to be correct. Nor do people think very carefully before promoting their 99% certainties to 99.9%, or 99.9999%, or even higher than that.

As such, when a bunch of experts confidently assure me that a major system featuring untried elements has a one in ten million chance of failing, then I prefer to mentally revise that to "there is at least a single digit percent chance that we don't understand this system as well as we think we do, PLUS a negligible chance that if we understand the system then something could go wrong, but we're only counting the latter possibility and ignoring all our optimistic assumptions."
 
Well hrmm this is close, I didn't want Kakara to be the kind of person who'd essentially eat someones soul for power Majin Buu style, and if we go down this route that's essentially what we're doing, after all if we succeed in talking him around are all the people voting for this options going to agree to let him out and lose whatever power up we get outta this?
once he's reformed, yes
 
Thing is, I suspect Ambitious will weight against letting the dragon go*... it may not even take a majority to sway on this issue.

*(though other traits may weight for it, Pacifist-tree traits won't be among them I think)
 
[X] Seal him in a less imposing physical body, with his powers sealed as well (somewhat harsh, renders him almost completely harmless while still giving him physical freedom. Implement chibi Dazarel).

I want a god damn, snarky, miserable mascot. More importantly, I want him to be able to theoretically one day be reformed and freed to join us as an ally.

I don't want to be Naruto.
 
[X] Seal him in your own head. You will be his prison and his warden, and see what benefits you can gain from having a dragon chained in your body (x1.25, from, "ambitious." Middling harshness, Dazarel is as restricted as the inanimate object version but has you on hand for conversation and interesting experiences, renders him completely harmless, may or may not allow Kakara to exploit him for power).

This is something I want. This is something amazing. People please, WE CAN DO IT! YES WE CAN!
 
[X] Seal him in your own head. You will be his prison and his warden, and see what benefits you can gain from having a dragon chained in your body (x1.25, from, "ambitious." Middling harshness, Dazarel is as restricted as the inanimate object version but has you on hand for conversation and interesting experiences, renders him completely harmless, may or may not allow Kakara to exploit him for power).
 
[X] Seal him in a less imposing physical body, with his powers sealed as well (somewhat harsh, renders him almostcompletely harmless while still giving him physical freedom. Implement chibi Dazarel).
 
once he's reformed, yes
OK thats good to know, my fear is if this does get us some kind of power up or lets us use the Dragon's style of psychic abilities or whatever I'm afraid that people will be against us letting any of that power go.

Thing is, I suspect Ambitious will weight against letting the dragon go*... it may not even take a majority to sway on this issue.
Also if a vote to let him out ever does come up then Simon's right the Ambitious trait will weigh against it, which is why I'd prefer not to get into that situation in the first place. Cuz if whatever power we get from the Dragon is cool or useful enough the player base will never let it go and we'll end up keeping Dazarel prisoner forever.
 
OK thats good to know, my fear is if this does get us some kind of power up or lets us use the Dragon's style of psychic abilities or whatever I'm afraid that people will be against us letting any of that power go.
Kakara isn't going to do evil to get power and if I've learned anything on SV, it's that questers are definitely willing to compromise on power and success if it interferes with doing the right thing. When it's in-character at least.
 
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Suffice to say, people say they are 99% sure of being correct in situations where they are, in fact, only about 80% likely to be correct. Nor do people think very carefully before promoting their 99% certainties to 99.9%, or 99.9999%, or even higher than that.

As such, when a bunch of experts confidently assure me that a major system featuring untried elements has a one in ten million chance of failing, then I prefer to mentally revise that to "there is at least a single digit percent chance that we don't understand this system as well as we think we do, PLUS a negligible chance that if we understand the system then something could go wrong, but we're only counting the latter possibility and ignoring all our optimistic assumptions."
In this case, it's more "a bunch of experts confidently assure that me a simple system featuring known elements has zero chance of failing". With the "1 in 10,000,000 chance" being that they don't understand it as well as they thought and that said situation would come up.

I'm fairly sure that, based on what has been said, such a thing happening is the equivalent of the solar system suddenly becoming geocentric. Theoretically there's situations that'd it occur, but they're rare and you now have a bigger issue then "we need to remake the solar system models".
OK thats good to know, my fear is if this does get us some kind of power up or lets us use the Dragon's style of psychic abilities or whatever I'm afraid that people will be against us letting any of that power go.
Well, what makes you think that the power up won't stick around?
Also if a vote to let him out ever does come up then Simon's right the Ambitious trait will weigh against it, which is why I'd prefer not to get into that situation in the first place. Cuz if whatever power we get from the Dragon is cool or useful enough the player base will never let it go and we'll end up keeping Dazarel prisoner forever.
Actually, if we go by strict readings of the trait, it only provides vote weighting for gaining power, nothing about giving it up. :p
 
[X] Seal him in a less imposing physical body, with his powers sealed as well (somewhat harsh, renders him almost completely harmless while still giving him physical freedom. Implement chibi Dazarel).
 
Well, what makes you think that the power up won't stick around?
What makes you think it would? We're in unknown territory here, and once the source of the power is gone it is reasonable to expect the power will go as well, at any rate I expect whatever we get out of the deal power wise to be weaker once we no longer have a roommate.

Actually, if we go by strict readings of the trait, it only provides vote weighting for gaining power, nothing about giving it up. :p
While that might be true by strict reading I'm not sure that'll hold up in practice, but we'll see I guess.
 
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