- Location
- Australia
@PoptartProdigy, can we use ki to cancel forces like gravity and inertia?
Dragon Ball: After the End
The Fourth Monado
S U B A R A S H I I
- Location
- Away
Inserted tally
- Location
- U.S.A.
Given the state of the vote thus far, it seems reasonable that people will be willing to let him go. In fact, I'd almost think ambitious would weigh in favor of letting him out. Because that means we reformed him, and we have a new ally, and that means Kakara was right.
Well, lack of evidence isn't evidence of lack at this point. As you said, unknown territory. While him being the source does seem to suggest we would lose whatever abilities he grants, we already know that Sayans have mind arts. In all likelihood, having a teacher as powerful as Dazarel will only help us push that to new heights even afterwards.
edit: especially because, in our head, we'd have front row seats for those lessons and would probably need him for less time.
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- Location
- Australia
@PoptartProdigy, why is this a default option? Protector means that this shouldn't be a default option.
Daecl
CURSED BY THE DICE
My guess is because Yammar is being insistent about it.
Artanis Prime
Knight of the Fallen Dream
- Location
- Matrix of Leadership
But being right does not grant her personal power, which is what the trait influences. But again lack of evidence on how that would interact, loosing personal power to gain and ally might balance out. I suspect the particular circumstances of how/why/where this decision is coming up would come into play, but that's all guess work.
True, again I'm just thinking how much its gonna suck if we find out we spent like 3 years worth of actions developing our weird Dragon powers only to find out that all that goes poof if we let him out. But your right its much to early to be worrying about that, after all we don't even know if this will actually grant us any power yet. Might just be knowledge or techniques or something.
- Location
- Dual citizen of SV&SB
And if we aren't sticking him there for power, I find sticking him in our head where he can only talk to us morally abhorrent, since we have other options of equal safety.
We were all pissed OOC when we learned jaffur was still aware, just stuck inside his new brother. And Kakara was Horrified, IIRC. Which is why I'm confused this vote has a positive weight.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Uh, I wouldn't be sad about letting the dragon out at all if he reformed. He's friggin' strong.
- Location
- Australia
Jaffur was an innocent kid who didn't deserve what happened to him. Ultimately, this is just prison. Sending people to prison for crimes they committed is something Kakara is ok with, especially since this guy will still have someone to talk to, unlike Jaffur who Kakara at the time had no one to talk to.
- Location
- U.S.A.
Ugh, this vote is so close. Come on everyone! One or two votes is enough to put the seal inside us plan ahead. Imagine the comedy! Imagine the chance to be Karaka, the Dragon Slayer (without actually having to compromise our morals and kill anyone)
We'll be Dragon Born.
Also, I think having him inside our head gives us a much better chance of reform. And so also higher chance of actually having a dragon ally at some point in the future.
The difference between sealing is that the dragon has done something to deserve his imprisonment. And also, unlike Jaffur's seal, this isn't going to be either personality death (as we originally thought the seal was) or complete sensory deprivation, as Dazarel will still be able to interact with the outside world. Jaffur simply... can't. Or at least, he couldn't until we started helping him.
We'll be Dragon Born.
On the other hand, if we don't go for sealing him inside of us option, we'll just... never know. We'll never even be able to see if there are cool dragon powers, regardless of whether we get to keep them or not. That just seems less fun overall, less exploratory. We'll learn less on the balance, have less chance to push the boundaries of Ki.
Also, I think having him inside our head gives us a much better chance of reform. And so also higher chance of actually having a dragon ally at some point in the future.
Well, just because we're not putting him in our head just for power doesn't mean we don't care about the power at all. I feel like this is more for a chance to learn from him much more directly, and that's what I'm interested in.
The difference between sealing is that the dragon has done something to deserve his imprisonment. And also, unlike Jaffur's seal, this isn't going to be either personality death (as we originally thought the seal was) or complete sensory deprivation, as Dazarel will still be able to interact with the outside world. Jaffur simply... can't. Or at least, he couldn't until we started helping him.
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
You can counteract them.
Well, bear in mind that originally, it was written in. Also, Yammar will not shut up about it.
- Location
- Here and there
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] Seal him in your own head. You will be his prison and his warden, and see what benefits you can gain from having a dragon chained in your body (x1.25, from, "ambitious." Middling harshness, Dazarel is as restricted as the inanimate object version but has you on hand for conversation and interesting experiences, renders him completely harmless, may or may not allow Kakara to exploit him for power).
I'm a sucker for this gimmick.
I'm a sucker for this gimmick.
- Location
- Australia
46 vs 45 with weighting. One more headseal could swing it.
Artanis Prime
Knight of the Fallen Dream
- Location
- Matrix of Leadership
That's not necessarily true, after all if there are weird Dragon powers there is probably a way he could share them with us willingly or infuse us with power or even completely willingly fuse with us, or someone.
An idea I had was him infusing energy into someone over a period of time to give them power, like say tempting our little brother Mato, who is jealous of our status as Scion and a Super Saiyan, or perhaps Jenny from the Misfits, who doesn't like being so far behind the power curve. That's assuming any of this is possible in the first place, which is not certain. There is alot of potential for conflict and gives other options for storyline's even if he just lies about being able to grant power.
But if we stick him in our head we only really have 1 story, we ether Naruto him or fail too, we ether get a power boost or don't....that's it. I just think Kakara has enough going on for her that adding this on top isn't necessary.
ElleonXan
Self-Proclaimed King of the Dumpster Fires
- Location
- USA
So just out of curiosity, what the devil is the point of trying to reform Daz if we are for all intents and purposes trapping him in for all of eternity, first in our head, then in in our corpse/whatever the sorcerers manage to move him to?
I mean, I keep hearing "reform Daz" being thrown about for the pro-jinchuriki side as if
A) we can't reform him outside our head.
B) there is a point to reforming him, considering he's going to be stuck in our head for the rest of our life.
I mean, there is no definitive way to prove when or if he is reformed, and since as a trapped prisoner, he'd say anything to get free... There is no real way to in good conscience free him.
So I have to ask, why are you trying to reform him, if you're going to keep him imprisoned? Or is this going to be one of those "drop him on the future generations and hope he has reformed" things?
And finally, since things are moving so fast I hate to go back, but I feel I have to reply to this:
I mean, I keep hearing "reform Daz" being thrown about for the pro-jinchuriki side as if
A) we can't reform him outside our head.
B) there is a point to reforming him, considering he's going to be stuck in our head for the rest of our life.
I mean, there is no definitive way to prove when or if he is reformed, and since as a trapped prisoner, he'd say anything to get free... There is no real way to in good conscience free him.
So I have to ask, why are you trying to reform him, if you're going to keep him imprisoned? Or is this going to be one of those "drop him on the future generations and hope he has reformed" things?
Also, gonna have to ask where you have ANY indication at all that any power up we may or may not get from Daz (and I'm still not sure how much power we'd be able take if we're hard-core shutting him out of our head) would stay after he is gone?
And finally, since things are moving so fast I hate to go back, but I feel I have to reply to this:
It is not about feeling trapped. It is about having some measure of control while being trapped. Yes, he might feel trapped in chibi form, but that doesn't mean that he won't feel trapped inside our head. The difference is that in chibi-Daz's case, if we get to be too much for him, he could probably get away, even if only by trading us out for another saiyan guard. In our head, he cannot do that; we have complete control over the seal, and therefor in all practicality have complete control over him. And in most situations, it is very hard to have any sort of meaningful relations when one party has THAT MUCH power over the other.
Wait, thought. If/when he reforms, how are we going to unseal him with the various options?
I suppose with sealing him inside ourself, and our control of the Seal, we could in theory make it "porous" to the point it vanishes and he's released, but what about if we shrink him down to size?
Hmm.... I suppose that we could include a write-in for the chibify option that allows us to release or restrict him at will. Something like this?
-[] Include a way for you to loosen or strengthen the seal on his body and power at will.
@PoptartProdigy, thoughts? Also, sorry for calling upon you so much today.
I suppose with sealing him inside ourself, and our control of the Seal, we could in theory make it "porous" to the point it vanishes and he's released, but what about if we shrink him down to size?
Hmm.... I suppose that we could include a write-in for the chibify option that allows us to release or restrict him at will. Something like this?
-[] Include a way for you to loosen or strengthen the seal on his body and power at will.
@PoptartProdigy, thoughts? Also, sorry for calling upon you so much today.
- Location
- Dual citizen of SV&SB
Most of your post is a fair point. But this part is something that I don't recall.
As to the rest...
The first half, I sincerely doubt the majority of people voting for this agree. Heck, the vote itself only has weighting as the listed purpose is to gain power from it.
And I agree, the dragon deserves imprisonment. I was one of the ones trying to find a way for it to die. But if we aren't killing it, it needs to be handled morally. Being in jail you can still interact with multiple other people, and in modern prisons go outside every day or so to take in the sun, maybe get some exercise. (I believe. Never been there myself.) This seal? It's more akin to chaining somebody up in a basement. You get to talk to one person, and only one person. If you make them unhappy, they can explicitly lock the wall down and prevent anything from getting in or out. Sure, your warden might put a TV down there while wearing a Gopro.... that they can again, turn off whenever they feel like it and leave you with nothing.
This is literally the cause of stockholm syndrome in humans.
Now, this changes if he can always see outside of us, and telepathically communicate with people without us allowing it. But then that has many other issues... even though it isn't true because again, it's stated to be a very solid wall.
Edit: Of course, Poptart, if you could clarify if it's the "Chained to a wall in our head" Type of being sealed in our head, or "He can talk to people and look around us even when the wall is closed." Type of seal, it would be welcome.
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Actually, there is an answer there: the Sight. With his powers sealed, we should be able to use it on him to determine the truth of things. Also, we can train deception, make it harder for him to fool us.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Um... for reference, we can allow him nominal control of Kakara One while she's using multiform, so he can interact with other people...
e:
Kakara chooses how porous the seal is. She can allow him to see everything she sees, feel everything she feels, or close it off, at will.
e:
Kakara chooses how porous the seal is. She can allow him to see everything she sees, feel everything she feels, or close it off, at will.
- Location
- The Great Beyond
- Pronouns
- He/She/They
... 1: Intrigue is the don't get fooled stat, deceit is for fooling others.
2: We have exactly zero reason to believe his powers would specifically make him resistant to the Sight.
3: I actually have concerns that sealing him inside us will complicate using the Sight on him. It's, you know, sight based.
- Location
- Brazil
[X] Seal him in your own head. You will be his prison and his warden, and see what benefits you can gain from having a dragon chained in your body (x1.25, from, "ambitious." Middling harshness, Dazarel is as restricted as the inanimate object version but has you on hand for conversation and interesting experiences, renders him completely harmless, may or may not allow Kakara to exploit him for power).
- Location
- U.S.A.
The question is, why would he do any of this. By definition, the seal on his powers would be no less functional either way. So there's benefit for him to do this, as no one could undo the seal and he finds all of the 'apes' beneath him. I find it far more likely that he just... doesn't interact at all. Sealing him inside of us will force interaction that he would probably avoid otherwise.
I mean, it's not that we can't reform him, its that we probably have a better chance of doing it with more interaction. Your second point doesn't really track for me, because if we can undo the seal that keeps him tiny then we can undo the seal that keeps him locked in us the same way (probably with more Genki Dama fueled sorcery). And, well, again. If he's tiny he's still being left behind for future generations. There's no reason to think that we can't still keep him sealed, or at least make plans to, after our death regardless of where we stick him.
We can make the seal 'less opaque', allowing him to view the world in real time and talk to us. This is what I mean, which is something Jaffur specifically couldn't do. Also apparently nominal control of mutliform clones according to an above post?
I really don't see how imprisoning him inside of us (arguably the most compassionate individual on this entire planet towards him) is any less moral than just killing him. In fact, letting him out and about is probably less moral. Because it means that he's going to be stuck in a hostile society that has every reason to abuse and ostracize him while Daz has no power to fight back. That type of isolation seems more damaging than only being able to directly interact with us. Kakara is much nicer than the rest of Sayans are going to be.
I don't believe that this is the case. We've sight scryed into Jaffur's soul multiple times now. There's no reason to think that Dazarel being inside our own soul will prevent Kakara from doing something similar. In addition, Kakara's mentor has said that sight works better if there are fewer degrees of separation between the seer and the target. It's hard to find fewer degrees of separation than sealed inside the seer's soul. It will probably make scrying about him and his future actions much easier.
Actually:
Unless you meant "dictate what One does".
Last I checked, Deceit checks were opposed by Deceit checks.
As for the Sight, we know he was hard to See until we did so.
And I don't see why it would?
Body, not soul.
- Location
- USA
Hahahaha!!!!!
Thank you @Simon_Jester your example being one of the worst examples you could use to prove the point you're trying to make was hilarious.
Challenger wasn't the fault of the engineers. It was totally management. The engineers knew something would go wrong* if they launched that day -- it was too cold for some of the materials used.
Management decided to ignore the engineers and launch anyway.
Take everything you think that can go wrong. Eliminate every one of them that would also cause another form of the sealing to go wrong. Eliminate the ones that would be a threat even if we didn't have a dragon in our head. Compare the probability of those to the probability of the dragon breaking Op Sec for us breaking Jaffur out of The Seal. Because you can't claim that there can be something that can beat the seal without also considering the fact that the dragon has a non zero chance of knowing about our conspiracy. Now consider the chance the dragon doesn't know about that, but does know about our rift with Dandeer and dislike for Jaffur's Seal (or learns about it before we set things off). Now consider the other ways he could cause problems as a chibi dragon (like breaking the masquerade)
I don't think you can say that the probability of there being a problem with him in our head is significantly greater than him causing us a problem as a chibi dragon
*And people die when something goes wrong during launch
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
That is what I meant, yes