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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Redshirt Army said:
I'm willing to accommodate Homura if she wants to not share her power due to personal reasons, but that doesn't make it a logical position.
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The problem is in the asking. Asking Homura for things we know she won't agree to does nothing but make her uncomfortable, and if what we're asking about is bad enough (which I don't think this is, but still) call our judgement into question.
 
Torgamous said:
The problem is in the asking. Asking Homura for things we know she won't agree to does nothing but make her uncomfortable, and if what we're asking about is bad enough (which I don't think this is, but still) call our judgement into question.
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Knowing Homura's ability improves Mitakihara's percieved value, which improves chances of getting Fukushima willing to fight Walpurgisnacht. This is, to put it mildly, in Homura's interests. It's hardly a given she won't accept.

Beyond that, she'll already be in a group call discussing the arrangement anyway, so it's not like we'd be singling her out.

I don't think this is a case where she'd doubt our judgement in asking at all.
 
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Redshirt Army said:
Could you clarify? I'm really not seeing it. If we ask, and she says no, I don't think her opinion of us will drop in the least.
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I don't think her personal opinion of us will change.

I do think it will slightly her erode her evaluation of our judgment. Like "Sabrina's a good person whom I trust but she isn't very good at evaluating risks". Which is an opinion I think much of our team already has to an extent. I also don't like it in terms of our personal ability to be considerate to others. We damn well know this is an area Homura will not be comfortable with, so why are we asking? I feel it is strongly inconsiderate to do so and reflects poorly on us, in a simple internal way, not to do with the conscious opinion of others.
 
Okay, so, taking a step back.

It seems self-evident to me that we're going to eventually share powersets (including Timestop) with Fukushima if they're going to participate in the Walpurgisnacht fight. Doing anything else would be a massive loss of efficacy.

Is it just that you think it's too early, and want to build more rapport first? Would a line addressing that possibility in the group chat section be sufficient to assuage your concerns?

SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
I do think it will slightly her erode her evaluation of our judgment.
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Why?

What's the risk model, what's the worst case scenario, what are you afraid of?

As for being inconsiderate... Not really? Sharing her power without asking would be inconsiderate. Just bringing it up in discussion, not so much.
 
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Redshirt Army said:
Okay, so, taking a step back.

It seems self-evident to me that we're going to eventually share powersets (including Timestop) with Fukushima if they're going to participate in the Walpurgisnacht fight. Doing anything else would be a massive loss of efficacy.

Is it just that you think it's too early, and want to build more rapport first? Would a line addressing that possibility in the group chat section be sufficient to assuage your concerns?
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No? That entirely misses the substance of the objection.
 
The way I see it, Homura would agree to disclose her powers for any concrete chance to get more permanent allies on board.
Time stop isn't really a concern enough for her to refuse, because it doesn't contain as much emotional baggage as, for example, time travel. ( or Homu's shield. Who knows what horrors lurk inside...)
It's her quiet place, but Homura can be a pragmatist when it suits her.
The problems may begin on the description part. If we, for one, tell Yuki that Homura can bring people along in time stop, she is only two-three leaps of logic from figuring someone might hitch a ride without Homura's consent. So it should be dealt with delicately, preferably when everyone from both teams is accounted for and can speak for themselves. A gathering at a cafe sometime later? Or not, whatever.
As a show of faith, ( because, as I understand it, disclosing powersets is at least partially that ) we can tell as much about Sabrina's powers as we are reasonably sure of and their applications, I guess?
 
SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
No? That entirely misses the substance of the objection.
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As I understand it, you think asking Homura to consider discussing her power (not singling her out, as part of a team-wide topic) is a severe faux-pas?

How about editing the line to be more specifically considerate regarding Homura (and Oriko's) powers when we discuss an exchange of information?

Raiseth said:
The problems may begin on the description part. If we, for one, tell Yuki that Homura can bring people along in time stop, she is only two-three leaps of logic from figuring someone might hitch a ride without Homura's consent.
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Combined with Muramasa's earlier concern about "revealing weaknesses", I feel like I should clarify the discussion as a "broad overview" of abilities more than anything else.

Call it, five words per powerset tops?
 
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Some edits to hopefully address concerns. Highlighted key changes. 199 words.

[x] Contact your team.
-[x] Fukushima proposes a mutual defense agreement. This affects all of us. Discuss? No rush.
-[x] Disclose powersets? Now/in person? Be considerate of Oriko/Homura.
-[x] Should Yuki come in person to ratify (and fulfill) the contract?
-[x] Excuse yourself during sparring.

[x] Spar: Agree.
-[x] Clarify appropriate force. Free cleansing aside, you don't want to destroy anything valuable.
-[x] Unambiguously follow agreed rules. Escalate responsibly, don't risk civilians.
-[x] Otherwise, don't hold back. Flight, armor, feints. Abuse nanofog, energy emissions.

[X] Defense Pact: You're interested.
-[X] Likely attackers?
--[X] You'd prefer attempting diplomacy, either after fighting settles or preempting it entirely. You want to help all magical girls.
-[X] What other groups are in the area?
-[X] Share basic power descriptions? (If team agrees.)
-[X] Share that you're conferring with Tomoe Mami. Share your friends' comments/concerns. If no/negative/undeveloped groupchat consensus, break to voting.

[X] Payment:
-[X] Agree to provide antimagic.
-[X] Haggle, erring on the side of generosity.
-[X] Provisionally agree, invite Yuki to Mitakihara for ratification by Mami, tailored antimagic, and Airi transport.
--[X] Provide Clear Seed - it's not contingent on the rest of the deal. Usual safety warnings.
 
Yuki: "My team is pretty amazing, you know? As you know, Sasami can throw laser beams and Moe can move super fast in darkness, they combo pretty well; then Atusko can control metal, and she's damn good at it; then there's me, who owns Fukushima, and then there's Shinobu, who is a mountain."

Sabrina: "Incredible."

Yuki: "Quite."

Sabrina: "My team's still more OP, tho."

Yuki: "Oh yeah?"

Sabrina: "Quite. I control Grief, giving us all unlimited magic, Grief is also a powerful tool in combat, I'm a magical sensor, can create esoteric effects with prep time, shoot actual lasers, fly, and a bunch of other stuff. Mami's power is being awesome and you know it."

Yuki: "Quite."

Sabrina: "Also ribbons. We also have some cool dual techs. Homura can stop time."

Yuki: "Bullshit!"

Sabrina: "Quite. But also true. Kirika's the one with Anti Magic, and Oriko use to be a precognitive-"

Yuki: "Bull-"

Sabrina: "Quite. But Oriko figured her power sucked so she's doing without right now."

Yuki: "..."

Sabrina: "Finally, Sayaka's got a few powers."

Yuki: "Not unheard of."

Sabrina: "Quite. For the time being, Sayaka's powers are: Flight, Power Copying, Magical Ribbon Summoning, Flight-"

Yuki: "You already said-"

Sabrina: "-Power Copying, Unstoppable Movement, Anti Magic, Cloning, Geokinesis, Enhanced Sight, Hypnosis, Plant Control, Paper Control, Invisibility, Memory Reading and Editing, Talking with Animals, Super Strenght, Matter Reconstrucion, Lightning Manipulation, Lightning Manipulation, Super Speed, Teleportation, and Slow Down."

Yuki: "... If I might repeat myself-"

Sabrina: "Bullshit."

Yuki: "Quite."

Sabrina: "Quite. I'm also pretty sure she's an angel."

Yuki: "... I thought you and Mami..."

Sabrina: "No, no. Mami is my angel. Sayaka's an actual, bonafide angel. Friend and secretary of God, who is a girl."

Yuki: "... Tell me more about this god?"

Sabrina: "It would be my pleasure. If you'll allow me, I'll create a privacy field so KB won't hear us talk, if that'd be OK?"

Yuki: "Bull... I mean, quite."
 
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[X] Muramasa

I don't see the need to disclose powersets if Yuki doesn't ask. It's not like she's told us the details of her own powers.
 
I'm confused as to why power disclosure would even be on the table this early in the partnership? We barely know anything about the Fukushima group. If we really need to discuss powersets with them, can't it wait until after we've gotten to know them at least a little bit? In fact, it might be better that way, as us just blabbing out our friends secrets might not look too good to a prospective ally.

This just seems like the wrong time to be bringing it up. I mean, Yuki just challenged us to a spar to test our mettle, not a discourse on what our team is capable of. We don't need to sell her in the pact thing in just one vote, especially not this one.
 
Redshirt Army said:
As I understand it, you think asking Homura to consider discussing her power (not singling her out, as part of a team-wide topic) is a severe faux-pas?

How about editing the line to be more specifically considerate regarding Homura (and Oriko's) powers when we discuss an exchange of information?
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I'm not mad-keen on that either. It does come down to presentation, certainly, but I feel the eagerness to obtain a minor and uncertain advantage in our discussion is not being properly weighed.


I consider it to be a serious faux-pas because I think whether Homura can put her full faith in Sabrina is the primary point of the entire quest. There is going to come a point where whether or not Homura can put blind faith in Sabrina specifically is tested, and it will be despite whatever significant reservations or strong evidence to the contrary comes up at the time. My read is that's something crucially significant that we're building towards. If she can't, that's it, we will fail.

And yes, it's a read, but it seems a good read. That's why checking up on us in timestop is significant information. Why when we ask something of her, how she responds is always granted significant focus. Why it's been highlighted when she gives us more trust than seems logical. Furthermore, this is perhaps the primary point that canon PMMM and Rebellion both failed to solve - Homura never accepted the ending. Whether Homura could place faith in someone else to help her and in the end to solve her problems was, right to the end of canon, always something that went totally unfixed. "Can you do better" is also one of the fundamental premises of the quest. And when it comes down to it, whether or not we actually can do better revolves around whether Homura accepts it and can believe in us. That's what I feel several of the challenges in this quest are designed to test, and from that I can strongly infer that whether Homura can believe will be fundamental to the climax of the quest.

That goes whether you buy in to "Sabrina is all the witches" or "Feathers is Homucifer" or "this is all a setup by the Law of Cycles" or whatever theory (well, except "Sabrina is Amy the cat" I guess), or even simple problems like "fix everything only works if Homura lets it" or if we have to double down on "this loop will work because of me" when Kyubey detonates the potentialbomb. The result to so many many scenarios is that Homura has to think we can be trusted to have her best interests at heart, even despite whatever secret comes out, even despite that technically not being absolutely true in every single situation. And it also means that Homura has to buy-in to whatever plan we make or trust that our judgment is sound, even when everything hangs in the balance, even when all other hope seems lost.

That's what is being risked. And I say that in full knowledge that I do NOT mean it's an all at once risk, not even a little bit! But it is something that we continue to build brick by brick, and likewise it's something that can be eroded chip by chip. Overall, if we did ask about power sharing here, it wouldn't even be a significant setback. But at the same time, the end result is so fundamental that chipping her trust in our judgment doesn't seem to be worth some minor, unsolicited, and unlikely to matter advantage in a negotiation with a stranger that we can just as easily complete by seeing this spar to completion.


If we were to insist, here's how I would present it:
Inform that you were offered a mutual defense pact.
Ask for them to think about it and talk about the consequences once you're done sparring.
Ask for them to consider what you can offer to bring such a deal to completion if necessary? Resources, shared capabilities, information, etc?

That way, we're not asking, rather, we're putting it in their hands to offer. But even then I'm not sure I like it.
 
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[x] Muramasa

Fukushima aren't even our allies in name yet, much less in deed. It's way too early to start offering them unconditional trust.

Keep in mind that they're the ones who suggested a mutual defense pact with us. We're already bringing a unique, gamebreaking powerset to the table. We don't need to show all our cards to impress them.
 
Yuki is trying to set a breakneck pace towards commitment.

What does this mean?

It isn't hostile to refuse to fall into her pace. A spar is already rather intimate, and a risk we are taking on blindly. Just gather more data, let Yuki sell a bit more, and do well at the spar.

Thanks to our big debate here, Yuki will sense Sabrina obviously thinking, and our words will have intent and weight behind them. Further, we have selected a consistent and effective course. Thus, I think we have found all our immediate victory conditions. With these, our assessment as a diplomat should be fine in her opinion. And we have prepared for the next part already, should she carry through and spar.

Our best resource is the love and regard of our group. Pass along the situation in some detail, get the significant points literal and correct. They want to help us. Homura has a capacity to understand threats in more fidelity using her refined logic. Mami has honed her survival instincts to degrees we are still trying to understand. Hitomi has been raised in the part of society filled with white-collar crime stories. Everyone we know has good possibilities to make our policy decisions better. And I want Fukushima to wait until we can get a meeting together before any answer is decided. Yuki has been doing homework about us.

We need to know more about the past and present of Fukushima. I want an extended social occasion for our girls to meet Yuki, and then we make a decision the next day. Karaoke room is one way to do this. Or buy out the party room in some family restaurant. We can pay for watching Anri either way, so that is a separate matter, and if we select them to hold her, that can happen before we decide to make an alliance.

If Homura wants to be a silent partner this time for tactical / whatever reasons, or not, why would we not understand that? Leave her some wiggle room. She can talk about it with us tonight.

[X] Muramasa
 
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