I am... very tempted to try and complete Boston Stage 4 + Refits before Elections, but I think we'd have to sacrifice too much in HI to really do it. Big thing being Yellow Zone Power Grid, which we want before election time so the Yellow Zoners can vote. Plus continuing Fusion Reactor experiments.
But I think it may be possible to at least get BigBoston started before elections if we commit to it.
I think you guys are risking falling for the numbers trap again. Remember the numbers are just an abstraction. Capital goods includes everything from Computer Chips to rolling stock for rail lines. Going all in on computer chips when the entire GDI economy needs a very wide spread of capital goods will definitely have knock on effects. If you exploit the system like that I can't imagine Ithillid will just sit back and reward you for it.
The whole system is just made to keep the accounting on Ilithid's end manageable, and to give him a canvas to write the story upon. I think we're better off completing projects in every sector and capital goods type and laying a firm foundation quarter after quarter and keep Boston Phase 5 or w/e as the capstone it's meant to be.
Edit: on second read I'm misreading your post. My bad @Chimeraguard. Too many people talking about the meme in the discord and I lost my ability to comprehend reading. Point still stands though.
Edit 2: it seems like Ithillid said in the discord that shocking Stage 4 wouldn't be a problem. It'd be looked at oddly, but it wouldn't cause any major issues without NOD interference. Someone should probably ping him in the thread if you want to propose that kind of plan to confirm though.
Concerning the power worries, we could instead commit to Boston in 3 (max) turns. 7 dice into Boston and then put the other 3 in fusion / yellow zone power. Resource wise the cost is the same; Boston is 15R, Fusion 20R and YZ Power 5R. The extra 3 power is small true but it gives us a little more wriggle room.
Yeah, that's worth thinking about. Depending on how Boston could roll, it might be necessary to switch to a 3 turn strategy. Hopefully it does really well and we can switch some dice to finish Boston and some energy projects in the following turn. With 10 die and bonuses average rolls would be 620 progress anything less than 600 probably means it takes 3 turns. The good side of that is we would easily finish superconductors for the extra power.
We can at least get some of the cheap prep done even if we don't commit to the retrofits immediately. The Titan Mark 3 preliminary requires us to roll a, what, 40+ I think?
I think yoi guys are risking falling for the numbers trap again. Remember the numbers are just an abstraction. Capital goods includes everything from Computer Chips to rolling stock for rail lines. Going all in on computer chips when the entire GDI economy needs a very wide spread of capital goods will definitely have knock on effects. If you exploit the system like that I can't imagine Ilithid will just sit back and reward you for it lol.
The whole system is just made to keep the accounting on Ilithid's end manageable, and to give him a canvas to write the story upon. I think we're better off completing projects in every sector and capital goods type and laying a firm foundation quarter after quarter and keep Boston Phase 5 or w/e as the capstone it's meant to be.
Yeah that was a concern and there'll definitely be pros and cons of doing it this way. This idea mostly came from me reading through discord, seeing a discussion of it mostly as a meme plan and thinking that might just be crazy enough to work. When I asked it got the fantastic endorsement from Ilithid "It is viable. Actually surprisingly viable."
I did ask about the gameyness of it and didn't seem to be a problem, so I put together a plan and here we are.
Yeah that was a concern and there'll definitely be pros and cons of doing it this way. This idea mostly came from me reading through discord, seeing a discussion of it mostly as a meme plan and thinking that might just be crazy enough to work. When I asked it got the fantastic endorsement from Ilithid "It is viable. Actually surprisingly viable."
I did ask about the gameyness of it and didn't seem to be a problem, so I put together a plan and here we are.
I think that gameyness is probably not a problem for one simple reason: Boston and Tokyo (phases) both exist. Ilithid wouldn't present us with trap options which means that the need for more chips in both a capital and consumer sense is still very much there, people are perhaps forgetting just how many chips a 21st century country actually need. This is even more so for GDI who are a world government and even more advanced.
Yeah that was a concern and there'll definitely be pros and cons of doing it this way. This idea mostly came from me reading through discord, seeing a discussion of it mostly as a meme plan and thinking that might just be crazy enough to work. When I asked it got the fantastic endorsement from Ilithid "It is viable. Actually surprisingly viable."
I did ask about the gameyness of it and didn't seem to be a problem, so I put together a plan and here we are.
Hell it might work if Ithillid is nice enough. I doubt there'd be no consequence of throwing all of our budget at one project during several turns when so many other issues need addressing. Dunno.
I think the Parliament will mandate a phyche eval after we choice to do that TBH lol.
Besides everyone probably already believes the treasury is run by a mad man, that they can't get rid of because he's too damn good. Like some kind of politically inept super bureaucrat.
We can at least get some of the cheap prep done even if we don't commit to the retrofits immediately. The Titan Mark 3 preliminary requires us to roll a, what, 40+ I think?
I think next turn we will have three dice on SMARVs, at least one on shell plants, and one on apollo. So depending on how many free dice we can give to military we can do between 0 to 5 projects. I suspect it will be 2 or three, some dice go into power, and a few may go into development projects.
Besides everyone probably already believes the treasury is run by a mad man, that they can't get rid of because he's too damn good. Like some kind of politically inept super bureaucrat.
I keep thinking "Bunny Ears Lawyer", but that's more outright eccentricity than awkwardness.
We could deploy the Wolverine Mk.3 to warm up Steel Talon and get something out the door right now. But I'd rather get Myomers, RWS, Point Defense, and Ablative Plates, in that order, out of our current development projects.
This Side Quest was allowed by Ithillid and is supposed to be fun. Things happening in CarterQuest will be affected by the main one, but unless Ithillid says otherwise it is noncanon.
Budget: 40 Capital + 348 Capital Reserve (15 to experiments, 20 to Research Grants)
Power: 14
Personnel: 2
Office Space: 4
Laboratory Space: 2
Work Amenities
-Anchorage +++++
-Harper ++++ (+++++ after relocation)
Tiberium: 0
Resources: 7 Usable Storage: Enough
Advanced Parts (AP): 7/turn Usable Stored: 11 (If not otherwise specified, 1AP can be bought for 10C)
Mechanics FAQ:
Work Amenities, what do they do? They represent how nice SCED is to work at and give roll bonuses: + Amenities gives +1, ++ gives +2, +++ gives +3 etc. Anchorage Amenities only count towards RnD Dice.
Plan Goals:
-Finish [ ]Manned Landing (Luna) Before Q1 2057
Mandate:
-Complete a Lunar and Mars Orbiter Mission within a reasonable timeframe with a minimum of three (3) probes per body and Phobos and Deimos Orbiter mission with a minimum of one (1) Probe. The lunar mission should be finished before Q2 2056 and the martian mission should be underway with the second launch window from now.
Auxiliary Dice (AD): Auxiliary Dice cost Capital, the C cost for each category is specified in the header. The cost is added to all other costs.
Infrastructure (3 Dice): +39 (AD cost: 2C)
[ ][Carter]Anchorage Variable-G Laboratories 478/485 0/5C (1AP or 10C/Die + 1C/Die)
One of the more exotic options, the vg-lab on its own won't produce radical new research but is meant to serve in tandem with other laboratories to research the effect of gravity on chemical reactions or electronics. The Laboratory makes use of GDI's advanced artificial gravity to produce small enclosed spaces between 0- and 20-Gs, either working in tandem with or against Earth's gravity.
(Power --, Small Progress Reduction for certain Developments, Moderate Progress Reduction for certain Experiments)
[ ][Carter]Supercomputer Complex Stage 5/5 71/185 (4C/Die)
Sometimes using brute computing power can go a long way to solving problems. Not much more than rows upon rows of server racks to be expanded upon, the complex will help overall with RnD efforts regardless of the specific project.
(Power-, Personnel -)
Tiberium (3 Dice): +14 (AD cost: 5C)
[ ][Carter]SCED Base Tiberium Perimeter Stage 2 0/500 (2C/DIe)
With a few kilometres of sonic fencing acquired the next step is to acquire a small fleet of the containment vehicles and the associated equipment and train the tiberium work crews in their use.
(Personnel -, Power -)
[ ][Carter]Tiberium Spikes 0/400 (1 AP or 4C/Die + 1C/Die)
Now that we have free access to all kinds of parts previously unobtainable due to the state of emergency a variety of new construction options opens up. One of them being a number of Tiberium spikes to get access to the various dormant subterranean Tiberium Deposits around the Space Force Bases. (Raw Resources +++, Personnel -, Power --)
Industry (3 Dice): +14 (AD cost: 4C)
[ ][Carter]Relocate Part Production 0/250 (1C/Die)
Relocating the entire part production machinery to the new site will take quite the amount of work, but if planned correctly won't affect performance overall.
(Work Amenities unlocked: +++)
[ ][Carter]Relocate Assembly 0/100 (1C/Die)
Relocating the assembly to the new site will take quite the amount of work, but if planned correctly won't affect performance overall.
(Work Amenities unlocked: +++)
[ ][Carter]Relocate Assembly Line 0/150 (1C/Die)
Relocating the Assembly Line machinery and robots to the new site will take quite the amount of work, but if planned correctly won't affect performance overall.
(Work Amenities unlocked: +++)
[ ][Carter]SCED Base Civilian Power Connections 86/100 (3C/Die)
With SCED having an overall lower security status than Space Force proper, they are allowed to partially power their bases with electricity from the civilian grid. But for that to begin, the base has to be connected to the grid first. (Enables buying Power for Capital)
[ ][Carter]SCED Base Thermosolar Power Plant Stage 1 / 5 0/200 (4C/Die)
With the location almost on the equator, good sun all year around and lots and lots of free space in the port's perimeter and thermosolar plant is the most attractive renewable option for the situation.
(Personell ---, Power +5)
[ ][Carter]Automated Assembly Line (Phase 3/5) 43/200 (1 AP or 5C/Die)
As the third in the row of the "Industry-M"-line of prefab buildings, the one meant for the automated assembly line stands tall and identical to the other ones. Erecting it proved no issue after the experience gained with the two other ones. All that is left is installing the industrial robots.
(Power-, Personnel -)
[ ][Carter]Upgrade Assembly Plant Stage 1 0/400 (1 AP or 5C/Die)
It is possible now to upgrade the plant to the highest standards using nothing but the parts it produces itself in an escalating cycle of improvement. (Power -, Personnel -, additional Assembly Die)
Assembly (3 Dice): +9 (AD cost: 7C) (Progress limited by assigned Parts)
[ ][Carter]Satellite Factory Assembly: (10C~1 Satellite, Satellites bought this way can be launched the same turn, max 1 per turn, requires no Dice)
-[ ][Carter]Hermes Orbiter Probe
[ ][Carter]Large Basic Drive Module 0/170 0/2 AO (+1 Large Basic Drive Module)
[ ][Carter] Titan Rocket System 0/85 0/1 AP
The Titan is the lightest of the launch vehicles in GDI's arsenal. It is reliable, robust and reusable, but can only carry a small payload compared to its powerful siblings. (Enables orbital launches of up to 2 APs worth, 6C launch cost, max 8 launches per quarter/turn)
[ ][Carter] Atlas Rocket System 0/255 0/5 AP
The Atlas was the workhorse with which the Philadelphia was built. A far more powerful rocket than the Titan System it is also known to be maintenance heavy and expensive to fuel. (Enables launches up to 10 APs worth, 20C launch cost, max 6 launches per quarter/turn)
[ ][Carter]Fix up Leopard 99/170 0/4AP (AP can be requisitioned for 1 AP ~ 2C)
With the internal wiring and jumpstart systems reinstalled and repaired all that remains is to reinsert the engine into the Leopard. A task more difficult than it sounds, as the entire superstructure has to be reassembled around it.
[ ][Carter]Leopard Class Transport 0/425 0/20 AP (AP can be requisitioned for 1 AP ~ 2C)
The Leopard is the crowning achievement in ground-orbital transportation. Its powerful fusion drive gives it a truly ridiculous amount of lifting power and cargo space. (Enables Launches up to 40 APs worth, 5C+(1 AP or 2C) launch cost, max 2 launches per quarter/turn)
[ ][Carter]Union Class Transport 0/425 0/20 AP
The Union is the overlooked part of what came of the fusion lift experiments. Having much more in common with a rocket instead of a plane its lifting capability is less than the Leopard, but it can lift off vertically as a trade-off. (Enables Launches up to 36 APs worth, 5C+1 AP launch cost, max 2 launches per quarter/turn)
RnD: +20
Mechanics FAQ: RnD is divided into three categories: Development, which has Dice which can be assigned as normal, Experiments which have a starting cost and then make 1D100 progress per turn, and Studies which are long term observations of things and have no set end.
Development (3 Dice + 5 External Dice (5AP cost):
[ ][Carter] Surface Space Suit Development 0/3C 0/1 AP 0/350 (5C/Die)
For any short term mission the standard GDI space suit will do, but for a longer term a new design will be needed. One that provides comfort in an environment with gravity and potentially atmosphere and is more resistant to corrosive and abrasive environments.
[ ][Carter] Basic Rover Development 0/2 AP 0/300 (5C/Die)
Basically the same situation as the orbital probe, building a functioning rover has more problems proportionally with it needing more moving parts and needing to survive landing on another body's surface, increasing the work that will need to be done.
[ ][Carter]Ion Drive Module Development AP 0/4 0/125 (5C/Die)
An Ion drive has several advantages to a chemical one in a vacuum environment, such as a higher amount of delta V per weight-unit of fuel. The downside is that it requires a constant supply of power, usually from solar panels or a nuclear source. Similarly to the Basic Drive Module Development, developing an Ion Drive Module is about building a few models that fit with SCEDs mission parameters.
[ ][Carter]Leopard Modification Development 250/270 10/10AP 10/10C (5C/Die)
The Leopard shuttle on its own cannot return from the moon, as it requires an atmosphere for liftoff, nor can it support a crew for extended periods of time. Both will require extensive modification of the craft. Namely a number of chemical thrusters on the underside of the craft to assist on lunar lift-off, a massive flywheel to get a sufficient short term, high volume power storage to reignite the fusion engine and an expansion of the crew compartments to support ten people for 31 days.
Experiments:
[Active]Plasma Torch Drive Experiments 5/5 AP 20/20C 41/340 5C/turn
[Active]Fusion Drive Experiments 5/5 AP 20/20C 46/340 5C/turn
[Active]Heavy Space Suit Experiments 5/5C 3/3 AP 28/160 5C/turn
[ ][Carter]Mission: Research Base (Write-in) 0/1000
-Luna 423/500
-Mars 0/800
[ ]Earth Orbit Long Range Comsat Network 52/100
While Carter and SCED had planned to use the normal communication satellite array for deep space missions when budget was still low, it is less than ideal and would have likely led to reduced performance. Building up such a network however is required for deep space missions.
[ ]Lunar Comsat Network 72/100
With more missions to the lunar surface likely to happen sooner than expected, the buildup of a proper commsat-system in the moon's orbit will need to be prepositioned to cover the surface with radio reception.
[ ]Martian Comsat Network 0/100
With more missions to the mars surface likely to happen sooner than expected, the buildup of a proper commsat-system in martian orbit will need to be prepositioned to cover the surface radio reception.
How to Launch Missions:
No dice are required, just put [X]Launch XYZ on your plan, I'll take care of things. If you want to send additional probes write it:
[X]Launch XYZ
-[X]X Probes
[ ]Reinforce Herschel-Luna
Transfer Possible: Always
Time for Transfer: 1-3 days (instant, same turn)
Mission Timer: 5 turns remaining.
Assets:
-Hermes Probe [Arrived, Scanning] Arrived Q4 2054
[-][Carter]Launch Ahnert-Luna
Transfer Possible: Always
Time for Transfer: 1-3 days (instant, same turn)
Mission Duration: 18 months (6 turns)
Requirements:
-Decontamination Hub Done
-Rover Development
-Basic Drive Module Development
-[ ]Unmanned Orbiter (Luna) Mission Finished
-Titan Rocket System + 6C Done
-(?) Rover (1AP Launch)
-(?) Basic Drive Module (1AP Launch)
[-]Launch Pardus
The most unusual of the proposed plans, Pardus would require a fusion craft, either by building one ourselves or reserving use from the treasury, modifying it to provide enough life support for the 10 Astronauts for the mission duration and make it able and lunar-take-off-ability. The mission will largely be focused on using the Leopards massive lifting capacity to return a large amount of lunar samples back to earth after a three-week stay.
-Leopard
Mission Duration: 21 Days
Requirements:
-Decontamination Hub Done
-Basic Drive Module Development 0/100 0/2 AP
--Leopard Modification Development 0/500 0/10AP 0/10C
-Complete [ ]Choose Astronauts
-Fusion Craft or [ ]Schedule Fusion Craft
[ ]Launch Olberth-Mars-A
Transfer Possible: Launch Window
Launch Windows: 26 months (7.5 turns), next one: Q2.5 2055
Time for Transfer: 12 months (4 turns)
Mission Duration: 18 months (6 turns)
Requirements:
-Decontamination Hub Done
-Probe Development Done
-Titan Rocket System + 6C Done
-min. 1 Orbiter probe (1AP Launch) Done
[-]Launch Olberth-Mars-B
Transfer Possible: Always
Launch Windows: 26 months (7.5 turns), next one: Q2.5 2055
Time for Transfer: 12 months (4 turns)
Time for Transfer during Launch Window: 9 months (3 turns)
Mission Duration: 18 months (6 turns)
Requirements:
-Decontamination Hub Done
-Probe Development
-Basic Drive Module Development
-Titan Rocket System + 6C Done
-min. 1 Orbiter probe (1AP Launch)
-min. 1 Basic Drive Module (1AP Launch)
[-][Carter]Gleiser-Mars
Transfer Possible: Launch Window
Launch Windows: 26 months (7.5 turns), next one: Q2.5 2055
Time for Transfer: 12 months (4 turns)
Mission Duration: 18 months (6 turns)
Requirements:
-Decontamination Hub Done
-Rover Development
-Basic Drive Module Development
-[ ]Unmanned Orbiter (Mars) Mission Finished
-Titan Rocket System + 6C Done
-(?) Rover (1AP Launch)
-(?) Basic Drive Module (1AP Launch)
[ ][Carter]Aphrodite-Venus-A
Transfer Possible: Launch Window
Launch Windows: next Q2 2055, Q4 2056
Time for Transfer: 4 months (1 turn)
Mission Duration: 18 months (6 turns)
Requirements:
-Decontamination Hub Done
-Probe Development Done
-Titan Rocket System + 6C Done
-min. 1 Orbiter probe (1AP Launch) Done
[-][Carter]Aphrodite-Venus-B
Transfer Possible: Always
Launch Windows: next Q2 2055, Q4 2056
Time for Transfer: 2 turns
Time for Transfer during Launch Window: same turn
Mission Duration: 18 months (6 turns)
Requirements:
-Decontamination Hub Done
-Probe Development Done
-Basic Drive Module Development
-Titan Rocket System + 6C Done
-min. 1 Orbiter probe (1AP Launch)
-min. 1 Basic Drive Module (1AP Launch)
[-]Launch Zeus-Jupiter
Transfer Possible: Launch Window
Launch Windows: Next Q1 2055, Q2 2056
Time for Transfer: 40 months (10 turns)
Mission Duration: Undetermined
Requirements:
-Decontamination Hub
-Probe Development
-Basic Drive Module Development
-Atlas Rocket System
-min. 1 Orbiter probe (1AP Launch)
-min. 1 Large Basic Drive Module (3AP Launch)
Bureaucracy (5 Dice): +6
[ ][Carter]Relocate Mission Control (Requires one Die)
Mission Control is not in possession of any real sensitive information. As such relocating them to the new offices is as easy as rolling out the backups from their work computers and tell them to pack up their personal items on a friday afternoon.
(Work Amenities unlocked: ++++)
[ ][Carter]Relocate Administration 0/100
The administration however has much more paperwork and sensitive data that InOps has categorised to need at least basic secrecy, due to SCED position as a Space Command subsidary. Moving operations over will need to be done with much higher security standards as thus take much longer.
(Work Amenities unlocked: ++++)
[ ][Carter]Prepare for Budget Infusion 0/150
The first time the treasury decided to inject additional funding into SCED the organisation was almost paralysed about the question what exactly to do with so much money. By planning several project outside the price range the Division can normally pay for, the organisation is prepared for the next time billions of credits are put in their laps.
[ ]Resolve the Coffee Crisis 0/150
With Space Command supply of coffee decimated and the consumer demand still vastly outstripping supply, every part of the branch needs to come together to end this crisis by any means necessary.
[ ]Choose Astronauts (Requires one Die)
Under normal circumstances less of an issue, the politicized nature of the planned moon landing will mean the crew will be under greater public surveillance than usual. As such the 10 men and women will require some care to be chosen, and Space Command already has hundreds of applications with the news becoming public.
[ ][Carter]Reach out to the Technical Schools 0/50
With SCED needing both academics and mechanics, some connections to the new Technical Schools will not only help with future recruitment efforts, but also with getting some of the former work crew volunteers to get an official degree with their as of yet unofficial technical expertise they got in the last two years.
[ ][Carter]Reserve Enterprise Working Hours (Requires one Die)
The Enterprise nearing the first real stage of operation has opened up an interesting option. The delivery of missions in small parts with assembly relegated to the personnel in orbit. It should take a little paperwork to set it up, but Carter being the Commanding Officer of Space Command helps.
[ ][Carter]Expand Infrastructure Work Crews 0/5C 0/50
(Personnel --, +1 Infrastructure Die upon completion, requires an additional Infrastructure Die)
[ ][Carter]Expand Industrial Work Crews 0/5C 0/50
(Personnel --, +1 Industry Die upon completion, requires an additional Industry Die)
[ ][Carter]Expand Tiberium Work Crews 0/5C 0/50
(Personnel --, +1 Tiberium Die upon completion, requires an additional Tiberium Die)
[ ][Carter]Expand RnD Staff 0/5C 0/150
(+1 Development Die, Laboratory Space -)
[ ][Carter]Staff Hire (1 - 10)C (Requires one Die)
(Personnel +(1 - 10))
[ ][Carter]]Requisition (Requires one Die)
-[ ]Titan Rocket System 0/10C
-[ ]Atlas Rocket System 0/20C
-[ ]Leopard Shuttle System 0/60C
-1 Titan Rocket System
-1 Leopard Transport Shuttle
-Construction Robots
-Construction Vehicles
-V-35 Ox Squadron
-1 Basic Drive Module
Ok turns out military refits has breakpoint costs. Meaning at certain points of progress it costs cap goods, not when it completes the whole project. So with that in mind I have rearranged the plan a little and by checking my math have found enough resources for an extra orbital die on space clean up and starting the next MARV hub in RZ7 north (North America north, so close to proposed Chicago site) so plan as stands is
[] Rebuilding The Machine part 1
Infra 5/5 70R +12
-[] Blue Zone Arcologies (Phase 1) 304/450 2 dice 30 R 45%
-[] Fiber-Optic Expansion 82/240 2 dice 40 R 34%
-[] Die to Bureau for Security Review
HI 5/5 +5 dice 150R +15 (-2 for 2 years due to graduates)
-[] North Boston Chip Fabricator (Phase 4) 64/1200 10 dice 150R 0.1%
LC 3/3 70R +12
-[] Yellow Zone Light Industrial Sectors 116/400 1 die 10R 0%
-[] Superconductor Foundries 0/200 2 dice 60R 8%
Agri 3/3 35R +12
-[] Vertical Farming projects 227/250 1 dice 15 R 100% (10% omake used)
-[] Perennial Aquaponics Bays 0/300 2 dice 20 R 0%
Tiberium 3/5 45R +30 (-2 for 2 years due to graduates)
-[] Blue Zone Perimeter Fencing (Phase 3) 273/400 3 dice 45 R
Orbital 2/3 30R +12
-[] GDSS Philadelphia II (Phase 1) 59/90 1 fusion die 20R 97% (15% omake used)
-[] Expand Orbital Communications Network (Phase 2) 108/135 1 fusion die 10R
Services 4/4 20R +27
-[] Game Development Studios 0/300 3 dice 15R 16%
-[] Childcare and Preschool programs 155/200 1 die 5R 98% (15% omake used)
Military 5/5 90R +12
-[] Reclamator Hub Red Zone 7 North Progress 0/105 20R 23%
-[] Reclamator Fleet RZ 6 South (Super MARVs) 0/210 3 dice 60 R 45%
-[] Shell Plants (Phase 3) 120/150 1 die 10R 98% (15% omake used)
Bureau 3/3 +12
-[] Security Review (Infra) 3 dice +1 Infra 100%
510/480 +30 reserve (510 total)
edit: wait more math errors, currently fixing
edit 2: fixed had enough for just the new MARV hub die not orbital clean up, though am open to switching if needed
I mean, CarterQuest people, come on, you have people working in space continuously with Enterprise in operation. There's plenty of personnel for a crewed space mission; it's just a matter of picking the ones with the right resumes.
18 dice gives a 68% chance of finishing Boston. Basically, we could totally shock it in 2 turns and along with war-refits we could gain access to another 1/2 mil dice...
What do we really lose by fully dedicating HI for 2 turns? Energy production.
Looking at it, we could probably afford to do it but it would also mean heavy commitment to HI for a third turn so that we could crash course some of energy production things, like fusion and yellow energy. On balance, considering the benefits of war-refit and basically finishing our cap good goal it probably is worth it. Although streching Boston to 3 turns so that we can do some energy production during the building would probably be smarter.
Overall, when it comes to the refits, there are two ways to handle them.
Option 1, build one or more big HI projects that make lots and lots of capital goods, and then go in and refit all the old factories. Big, expensive, hard work.
Option 2, is to actually out tech the situation. Instead of trying to do a massive infusion of capital goods, you do a bunch of the development and rollout projects.
So how that would work in the case of the MBT-7 Paladin is that you do
- Titan Mk3
- Ablat
- Remote Weapons System
- Lasers
or at least some combination of the above, and you would eventually get an option that says
[ ] MBT-7 Development
and then
[ ] MBT-7 Factories
and a few sub options for big factories that eat up some capital goods because this is a big backbone of your military level project, but overall less capital goods than fixing all of the old stuff.
True. On the other hand, since the 'tech tree' for developing new weapon systems is a bit hazy for us, completing a whole lot of separate military R&D products so we can build new production lines is less attractive for planning purposes than retooling the old lines to build modernized equipment at high standards of output and productivity.
The refit is much cheaper, but involves a massive immediate expenditure of capital goods. Once you total everything up the new tech is going to be much more expensive, in terms of resources and progress, and to some extent in capital goods, but you have to pay that anyway, and it is broken up across several different programs to replace different parts of your military, rather than some massive single project.
So... what would we have to do to get a rundown of what a comprehensive "Next Generation GDI Military" project would look like and what kinds of development we'd be looking at? Something like you just did for the tanks, but for all the other areas where we don't have an immediately clear idea of what we're trying to invent and build production lines for?
Another thing I should note is that if we're spooling up production lines for new hardware, those should supplant or enable us to close down old production lines. When you get to the step where you're building MBT-7 factories, you should be able to decommission MBT-6 factories to free up Labor and Energy to do so- that, or just retool an existing MBT-6 factory to make the new tank, with some modifications and new machinery being added of course.
I don't know if that step is built into the mechanics, though.
I think you guys are risking falling for the numbers trap again. Remember the numbers are just an abstraction. Capital goods includes everything from Computer Chips to rolling stock for rail lines. Going all in on computer chips when the entire GDI economy needs a very wide spread of capital goods will definitely have knock on effects. If you exploit the system like that I can't imagine Ithillid will just sit back and reward you for it.
Remember that one of the big limiting factors on capital goods for factories is the ability to get modern robotics equipment working, and to produce industrial control chips fast enough to put them into equipment.
The reason why we had zone armor plants in the first Plan that were turning out 'dumb' suits by hand and mothballing them was because:
1) We had no chip foundries capable of making the suit electronics, and
2) We had no chip foundries to permit us to make the automated tools that would physically build the suits.
Now imagine that there are a lot of factories throughout GDI where something like this is going on- including the factories that make things like military trucks and rifles and uniforms. Upscaling North Boston to turn out something like three times as much output would immediately cash out in terms of being able to build a sudden surge of robotic equipment to modernize factories, and to make 'smart' versions of things that could previously only be made 'dumb' or with the 'smart' version in very limited quantity.
So it isn't quite as gamey as it would otherwise be.
Edit 2: it seems like Ithillid said in the discord that shocking Stage 4 wouldn't be a problem. It'd be looked at oddly, but it wouldn't cause any major issues without NOD interference. Someone should probably ping him in the thread if you want to propose that kind of plan to confirm though.
I'd personally like to slow-walk (North Boston + Refits) a bit more. Like, not make it the Thing We Do This Year All Year, but just stretch it out. We've got time.
Hell it might work if Ithillid is nice enough. I doubt there'd be no consequence of throwing all of our budget at one project during several turns when so many other issues need addressing. Dunno.
It's actually not our entire budget. Even an insane 10 dice/turn spam on North Boston would use a bit less than 30% of our budget. North Boston dice aren't that expensive to activate, you see. 15 Resources per.
Also, we could just say "we need to do this to expand our war industrial capacity and make more war machines to take the fight to Nod" and a majority of Parliament would probably just grunt and nod, as long as we were using the other 70% of the budget to do a reasonable amount of other stuff that wasn't insane and was improving quality of life.
It is just built into the mechanics You just pay the difference.
As for getting a precise layout, it is supposed to be somewhat fuzzy. Because unlike say Civilization, things don't have a nice neat technology tree. On one hand there are upgrades to your own technology base. And most of the same upgrades would move you towards other pieces of the system as a whole. Look at what the vehicles have, what they are armed with. Mammoth 4 would require the Universal Rocket Launch System for example, among other things. On the other hand, there are the breakthrough technologies. Chemical Large Lasers are a serious breakthrough that would effectively require a new vehicle. In the scrintech pool there is a repulsorcraft upgrade that would mean that everything gets a new model basically instantly. So on and so forth.
Remember that one of the big limiting factors on capital goods for factories is the ability to get modern robotics equipment working, and to produce industrial control chips fast enough to put them into equipment.
The reason why we had zone armor plants in the first Plan that were turning out 'dumb' suits by hand and mothballing them was because:
1) We had no chip foundries capable of making the suit electronics, and
2) We had no chip foundries to permit us to make the automated tools that would physically build the suits.
Now imagine that there are a lot of factories throughout GDI where something like this is going on- including the factories that make things like military trucks and rifles and uniforms. Upscaling North Boston to turn out something like three times as much output would immediately cash out in terms of being able to build a sudden surge of robotic equipment to modernize factories, and to make 'smart' versions of things that could previously only be made 'dumb' or with the 'smart' version in very limited quantity.
So it isn't quite as gamey as it would otherwise be.
Yeah, I've come around on the argument. Phase 4 should be fine. I originally misread @Chimeraguard's post at talking about phase 5 (which produces 32 Cap goods hypothetically). I think overinvesting in Phase 4 (like dropping 10 dice) would have other negative effects, but that not because the factory is a problem, or shocking the factory is the problem, but simply that we would, by necessity, be ignoring other large parts of the Treasury's remit in order to invest so much in one project. That's an easy to see cost though, and everyone can weigh that themselves if the vote ever gets proposed.
I was also under the mistaken impression that the Boston Factory would produce intermediate gains, like the Refit project prouduces intermediate costs, so that it'd be better to run them parallel (while ensuring the Boston Plant was ahead, and finished first of course). Its since been pointed out to me though, that the Boston Plant gives no bonuses until completion, while the Mil Refit has costs at several breakpoints before completion, which would cause Cap Goods shortages during a parallel process, which would be bad.
So we'll have to think about the whole situation and come up with a best plan to get both goals done efficiently.
So, this plan assumse that assembling probes outside of the Satellite Factory rolls over like a phased plan. If that's not the case, I'll probably have to rework it a bit.
The goal here is to ensure that we can launch 3 Hermes probes at Mars next turn, and 1 each at Phobos and Deimos.
Also fixing the Coffee Crisis. Because Reasons.
[][Carter] Plan Carter's Terrible Three Probes Infrastructure (3 Dice): +39 (AD cost: 2C) 9C 1AP
-[][Carter]Anchorage Variable-G Laboratories 478/485 0/5C (1AP or 10C/Die + 1C/Die) 1 die 1C + 1AP 100%
-[][Carter]Supercomputer Complex Stage 5/5 71/185 (4C/Die) 2 dice 8C 94% Tiberium (3 Dice): +14 (AD cost: 5C) 6C
-[][Carter]SCED Base Tiberium Perimeter Stage 2 0/500 (2C/Die) 3 dice 6C 0% Industry (3 Dice): +14 (AD cost: 4C) 53C 1AP
-[][Carter]Relocate Part Production 0/250 (1C/Die) 3 dice + 1 AD 8C 55.65%
-[][Carter]Relocate Assembly 0/100 (1C/Die) 2 AD 10C 75.15%
-[][Carter]Relocate Assembly Line 0/150 (1C/Die) 3 AD 15C 80.16%
-[][Carter]Upgrade Assembly Plant Stage 1 0/400 (1 AP or 5C/Die) 5AD 20C 5AP 12.05% Assembly (3 Dice): +9 (AD cost: 7C) (Progress limited by assigned Parts) 49C 2AP
-[][Carter]Satellite Factory Assembly - Hermes Orbiter Probe: 1 Probe 10C
-[][Carter]Hermes Orbiter Probe 0/85 0/1 AP 0/5C (+1 Orbiter Probe) 3 dice + 1 AD 2 AP + 17C 87.71% for 2 probes
-[][Carter]Fix up Leopard 99/170 0/4AP (AP can be requisitioned for 1 AP ~ 2C) 2 AD 22C 86.74% RnD: +20
Development (3 Dice + 5 External Dice (5AP cost): 48C
-[][Carter] Surface Space Suit Development 0/3C 0/1 AP 0/350 (5C/Die) 2 dice + 3 External dice 1AP 43C 51.8%
-[][Carter]Leopard Modification Development 250/270 10/10AP 10/10C (5C/Die) 1 die 5C 100% Space Command Mission Planning (5/6 Dice) +5
-[][Carter]Mission: Unmanned Orbiter Deimos 0/50 2 dice 92.59%
-[][Carter]Mission: Research Base Luna 423/500 1 die 29%
-[][Carter]Earth Orbit Long Range Comsat Network 52/100 1 die 58%
-[][Carter]Lunar Comsat Network 72/100 1 die 78% Bureaucracy (5 Dice): +6
-[][Carter]Relocate Mission Control (Requires one Die)
-[][Carter]Choose Astronauts (Requires one Die)
-[][Carter]Resolve the Coffee Crisis 0/150 3 dice 64.73%
165/388C (223 left over)
9/11AP
Here's a version that goes for assembling 3 probes by hand, and does them as separate projects:
[][Carter] Plan Carter's Terrible Four Probes Infrastructure (3 Dice): +39 (AD cost: 2C) 9C 1AP
-[][Carter]Anchorage Variable-G Laboratories 478/485 0/5C (1AP or 10C/Die + 1C/Die) 1 die 1C + 1AP 100%
-[][Carter]Supercomputer Complex Stage 5/5 71/185 (4C/Die) 2 dice 8C 94% Tiberium (3 Dice): +14 (AD cost: 5C) 6C
-[][Carter]SCED Base Tiberium Perimeter Stage 2 0/500 (2C/Die) 3 dice 6C 0% Industry (3 Dice): +14 (AD cost: 4C) 53C 1AP
-[][Carter]Relocate Part Production 0/250 (1C/Die) 3 dice + 1 AD 8C 55.65%
-[][Carter]Relocate Assembly 0/100 (1C/Die) 2 AD 10C 75.15%
-[][Carter]Relocate Assembly Line 0/150 (1C/Die) 3 AD 15C 80.16%
-[][Carter]Upgrade Assembly Plant Stage 1 0/400 (1 AP or 5C/Die) 5AD 20C 5AP 12.05% Assembly (3 Dice): +9 (AD cost: 7C) (Progress limited by assigned Parts) 68C 3AP
-[][Carter]Satellite Factory Assembly - Hermes Orbiter Probe: 1 Probe 10C
-[][Carter]Hermes Orbiter Probe 0/85 0/1 AP 0/5C (+1 Orbiter Probe) 2 dice 1 AP 5C 78.55%
-[][Carter]Hermes Orbiter Probe 0/85 0/1 AP 0/5C (+1 Orbiter Probe) 1 die + 1 AD 1 AP 12C 78.55%
-[][Carter]Hermes Orbiter Probe 0/85 0/1 AP 0/5C (+1 Orbiter Probe) 2 AD 1 AP 19C 78.55%
-[][Carter]Fix up Leopard 99/170 0/4AP (AP can be requisitioned for 1 AP ~ 2C) 2 AD 22C 86.74% RnD: +20
Development (3 Dice + 5 External Dice (5AP cost): 48C
-[][Carter] Surface Space Suit Development 0/3C 0/1 AP 0/350 (5C/Die) 2 dice + 3 External dice 1AP 43C 51.8%
-[][Carter]Leopard Modification Development 250/270 10/10AP 10/10C (5C/Die) 1 die 5C 100% Space Command Mission Planning (5/6 Dice) +5
-[][Carter]Mission: Unmanned Orbiter Deimos 0/50 2 dice 92.59%
-[][Carter]Mission: Research Base Luna 423/500 1 die 29%
-[][Carter]Earth Orbit Long Range Comsat Network 52/100 1 die 58%
-[][Carter]Lunar Comsat Network 72/100 1 die 78% Bureaucracy (5 Dice): +6
-[][Carter]Relocate Mission Control (Requires one Die)
-[][Carter]Choose Astronauts (Requires one Die)
-[][Carter]Resolve the Coffee Crisis 0/150 3 dice 64.73%
184/388C (204 left over)
10/11AP
Edit: Changing and consolidating plans due to new information. Updated plan in new post.
It's actually not our entire budget. Even an insane 10 dice/turn spam on North Boston would use a bit less than 30% of our budget. North Boston dice aren't that expensive to activate, you see. 15 Resources per.
The problem with Boston Phase 4, I feel, is mostly the dice cost.
It will take at least two quarters, more likely three or four to rush Boston with 10 dice. This also precludes any other HI projects for at least that first quarter.
5 dice Boston will take at least three, more likely four or five. And so on. It's a heftier opportunity cost than the usual, most of our projects can complete in two or three quarters without hogging HI dice.
Not saying no, but we have immediate needs for cap goods--not just chips, fresh rolling stock would go a long way--and energy to meet our other obligations and only so many HI dice.
This Side Quest was allowed by Ithillid and is supposed to be a fun. Things happening in CarterQuest will be affected by the main one, but unless Ithillid says otherwise it is noncanon
The Great Coffee Crisis
Due to an unknown individual in the planning commission, the climate control for the "Coffee Vault" was slightly changed, causing many of the beant to catch mold. The devastated eyes of the staff, as some of the last good coffee beans on planet earth were thrown in the trash, will haunt Carter for the rest of his life. With the consumer economy still in shambles, a sufficient coffee supply is still a long way off.
