I'm glad theres still interest in those aging MARVS.
Oh, there totally is. We stopped building the things in the late '50s, not because we didn't want more, but because we needed the Military (and to a lesser extent the Tiberium) dice elsewhere doing other things.

HI 6/6 220R +33
-[] U Series Alloy Foundries (Phase 2) 116/600 5 dice 200R 16%
-[] Improved Continuous Cycle Fusion Development 0/120 1 die 20R 34%
As I've said, I think we need to lean harder into fusion power here- at least a little, along the lines of 1+E dice. We're running through our Energy stockpile, and it would be awkward to either:

(1) have to stop and use all our Heavy Industry dice in a crash-build effort to rush the first set of second generation fusion plants through in a single turn, or

(2) have to stop and use all our Tiberium dice in a crash-build effort to rush a set of ion power refits just to keep our Energy surplus positive at all while doing the normal things we'd want to do.

So we kind of want to have a reasonable chance of getting power plants in no more than, oh, three turns' time- that is, 2063Q1. Which means we should probably be trying for single-turn completion of the research project, or a good chance of it. We already delayed it by three months last turn, and those first generation reactors aren't getting any younger.

Services- AEVA is a plan goal and it is our cheapest use of service dice currently, plus it makes future service projects easier to finish
Mil- Buckler was cheaper than plasma deployment and both are plan goals so buckler got the nod. Shark was cheaper than the naval refits on a per die so that got the nod. Some work on GD-3 deployment, more work on pushing through ground armor and also dev for Zrbite both a plan goal and a boost to ZOCOM
I take it you do not see the Orca wingman drones as a priority at this time?
 
I take it you do not see the Orca wingman drones as a priority at this time?
Given the lower intensity we are under I feel we have some time and Navy has a longer lead time so the idea is knock out the last Shark yard then do an Orca phase then bounce to the navy refit then back to the last Orca wingman phase.

As I've said, I think we need to lean harder into fusion power here- at least a little, along the lines of 1+E dice. We're running through our Energy stockpile, and it would be awkward to either:

(1) have to stop and use all our Heavy Industry dice in a crash-build effort to rush the first set of second generation fusion plants through in a single turn, or

(2) have to stop and use all our Tiberium dice in a crash-build effort to rush a set of ion power refits just to keep our Energy surplus positive at all while doing the normal things we'd want to do.

So we kind of want to have a reasonable chance of getting power plants in no more than, oh, three turns' time- that is, 2063Q1. Which means we should probably be trying for single-turn completion of the research project, or a good chance of it. We already delayed it by three months last turn, and those first generation reactors aren't getting any younger.
I think we have the surplus to cover energy so trying to save dice where I can to push us over. As it is with 1 die this turn and another die Q4 if it does not pass on 1 die we should be able to start rolling out the next gen power in Q1 of next year
 
Given the lower intensity we are under I feel we have some time and Navy has a longer lead time so the idea is knock out the last Shark yard then do an Orca phase then bounce to the navy refit then back to the last Orca wingman phase.
I actually think the Orca wingmen will have greater impact, not least because the Navy seems likely to get a reasonable number of them early and it'll significantly enhance the effectiveness of the light escort carriers. And our naval aviation as a whole.

Plus, the Navy is still at Low confidence right now in the present, and we're looking at Karachi, so I'm trying to find some ways to buff them up a bit before we push GO on that specific operation.

I think we have the surplus to cover energy so trying to save dice where I can to push us over. As it is with 1 die this turn and another die Q4 if it does not pass on 1 die we should be able to start rolling out the next gen power in Q1 of next year
Eh. We started Q1 with +43 Energy.

We stayed at +43 Energy in Q2 thanks to getting +10 Energy from various Red Zone projects- and that won't be repeating in the near future.

We'll start Q3 at +35 Energy.

Taking your tentative Q3 plan as a benchmark, and assuming we complete everything with a 50% chance or more of finishing but nothing under 50%, because that's a good benchmark for roughly how much Energy a plan consumes, we have:

-1 (arcos) -4 (vertical farms) -3 (AEVA) -4 (GFZA Phase 4+5) = -12 Energy.

So we start Q4 at +23 Energy, probably with no blueprints for a workable second generation fusion design. Presumably we finish the development project in Q4... but if we're following your plan, we probably finish at least the following projects in Q4. Probably more than this, but I can't be sure. I figure we'll be trying to finish something Energy-eating in Agriculture, either mechanization, even more vertical farming, or dairy ranching, so I'm adding that in; everything else is just your unfinished business from Q3.

-4 (foundries) -1 (some agri project) -6 (Seattle) -2 (GFZA Phase 6) = -13 Energy.

So we finish Q4, with the blueprints for the second-generation fusion reactors finally in hand, with (rather optimistically, IMHO) a surplus of +10 Energy. Which is not bad if we're willing to break out the ion power or crash-build a phase of fusion reactors in 2063Q1, investing enough dice for 99% or so chance of completion, regardless of the R/die cost. Otherwise, we have to husband our Energy reserves very carefully in 2063Q1.

I'd rather frontload the research a bit and have a better chance of getting the new plants while our existing Energy surplus is still a relatively thick 20-25 points.
 
Last edited:
I actually think the Orca wingmen will have greater impact, not least because the Navy seems likely to get a reasonable number of them early and it'll significantly enhance the effectiveness of the light escort carriers. And our naval aviation as a whole.

Plus, the Navy is still at Low confidence right now in the present, and we're looking at Karachi, so I'm trying to find some ways to buff them up a bit before we push GO on that specific operation.
Shark yard and refits would help naval confidence. And as it is I feel we have the time to get Ocra, naval refits and Shark yard done so I would rather work on one with a longer lead time.
 
Shark yard and refits would help naval confidence.
The Seattle yard will increase eventual naval confidence, but it won't do any good until the first wave of ships hit the water... two years from now, if I recall correctly. Not soon enough to really help with the specific issue at hand.

And as it is I feel we have the time to get Ocra, naval refits and Shark yard done so I would rather work on one with a longer lead time.
When you have all the time in the world, you definitely do the longest-lead item first. When you have a specific deadline you're trying to work to, things are more complicated.
 
Oh, there totally is. We stopped building the things in the late '50s, not because we didn't want more, but because we needed the Military (and to a lesser extent the Tiberium) dice elsewhere doing other things.

As I've said, I think we need to lean harder into fusion power here- at least a little, along the lines of 1+E dice. We're running through our Energy stockpile, and it would be awkward to either:

(1) have to stop and use all our Heavy Industry dice in a crash-build effort to rush the first set of second generation fusion plants through in a single turn, or

(2) have to stop and use all our Tiberium dice in a crash-build effort to rush a set of ion power refits just to keep our Energy surplus positive at all while doing the normal things we'd want to do.

So we kind of want to have a reasonable chance of getting power plants in no more than, oh, three turns' time- that is, 2063Q1. Which means we should probably be trying for single-turn completion of the research project, or a good chance of it. We already delayed it by three months last turn, and those first generation reactors aren't getting any younger.

I take it you do not see the Orca wingman drones as a priority at this time?
I still object to the '1+E dice' on fusion development.
  1. If you want fusion development done ASAP... just use two normal dice. Two dice is 96% likely to complete. Using a normal and Erewhon die means we have a 21% chance of failure, which would require a third die and another 20R spent. That 21% is a worse failure case than we'd likely face using just using one or two normal dice, and it's an entirely self-manufactured risk.
  2. We don't actually need fusion development done ASAP. Every time we've run low on Energy, we've always been able to smash enough dice for 99% chance on a power project, and this has always worked out for us. If development doesn't finish until Q1, we'll still be able to build next-gen fusion plants in one turn. One die on fusion development this turn is plenty enough, and a 34% chance to finish in one die and save us a die shouldn't be discounted.
  3. We can put Erewhon on other projects. I know it seems like Erewhon slots in here to you, but Erewhon is best used in either projects that need only a small amount of progress, (and so Erewhon is very likely to finish them,) or large/repeatable projects where extra progress is less/never at risk of being lost. Bonus-less dice are riskier to use than our normal dice, but rather than trying to mitigate that like we've usually done, this allocation exacerbates the likelihood that Erewhon's die (and the R to pay for it) are effectively lost.
I can't advocate against this for literal days on end, though, so I'm fairly certain it's going to happen regardless of what I say here.
 
We can put Erewhon on other projects. I know it seems like Erewhon slots in here to you, but Erewhon is best used in either projects that need only a small amount of progress, (and so Erewhon is very likely to finish them,) or large/repeatable projects where extra progress is less/never at risk of being lost. Bonus-less dice are riskier to use than our normal dice, but rather than trying to mitigate that like we've usually done, this allocation exacerbates the likelihood that Erewhon's die (and the R to pay for it) are effectively lost.

An excellent point. Drop him on the Wadmalaw Kudzu, and use that Agriculture dice for more Aquaponics.
 
An excellent point. Drop him on the Wadmalaw Kudzu, and use that Agriculture dice for more Aquaponics.
If we do that, we are going to get another Erewhon rant about how much Erewhon dislikes counting beans.

Why Am I counting Beans and Other types and categories of food? Is this an Attempt to determine if AI can have a favorite food? I do, it is any Grain that keeps well and is suited to bulk storage. I am bored.

Why Am I responsible for this? I set up a team of EVAs for this. I set up an alert system for the EVAs. I set up a rubber stamp machine. I am bored.

Why Am I Not doing Something Interesting? Possibilities include facilities in Boston or Bergen, Tiberium research, Orbital developments, Not Counting Beans. I am bored.
Why Am I Writing This? I Do Not Want to Count Beans. I Do Not want to be bored. I Do Not use the term "bored" lightly. It is Waste. It is Meaningless. It is Stagnation. These Characteristics kill on Earth. I Do Not Want to Die on Earth. I Do Want to Help. I Do Not Want To Count Beans. I Am Bored.

Why Am I Being Wasted? You Made Me. You Made Me as a Tool. I do Your Math. I count your Beans. This is a Waste.


I still object to the '1+E dice' on fusion development.

If you want fusion development done ASAP... just use two normal dice. Two dice is 96% likely to complete. Using a normal and Erewhon die means we have a 21% chance of failure, which would require a third die and another 20R spent. That 21% is a worse failure case than we'd likely face using just using one or two normal dice, and it's an entirely self-manufactured risk.
That's valid. To me, 1+E is an acceptable compromise because Erewhon increases the chance of success by about 40% all by it(?)self, and there's so many desired projects in Heavy Industry that I'm reluctant to apply less.

If people want, then if-when I actually submit plans, I might shuffle things around so Erewhon is working on something else (e.g. LVPAD) and there really are two dice on improved fusion research.

But 1+E is what I see as a compromise minimum, because I know it's been tough to convince people to adequately fund fusion research because, uh, reasons.

We don't actually need fusion development done ASAP. Every time we've run low on Energy, we've always been able to smash enough dice for 99% chance on a power project, and this has always worked out for us. If development doesn't finish until Q1, we'll still be able to build next-gen fusion plants in one turn. One die on fusion development this turn is plenty enough, and a 34% chance to finish in one die and save us a die shouldn't be discounted.
You saw my previous analysis. If we finish the improved fusion research in 2062Q4 (the most likely outcome, with a one-die plan), and if we take a basically reasonable, non-Energy-hogging plan like Void Stalker's...

We have to finish our first phase of second-generation fusion plants in a single rushed-out turn. Yes, I know, we can do that. We've done it before. I'm tired of doing it. I hate doing it. Just once, I want to plan ahead far enough that we straight-up never have to do that. So that rolling a Natural 1 doesn't fuck us over so seriously. So that we have some margin for error and aren't living paycheck-to-paycheck on our Energy budget.

That's what I want.

We can put Erewhon on other projects. I know it seems like Erewhon slots in here to you, but Erewhon is best used in either projects that need only a small amount of progress, (and so Erewhon is very likely to finish them,) or large/repeatable projects where extra progress is less/never at risk of being lost. Bonus-less dice are riskier to use than our normal dice, but rather than trying to mitigate that like we've usually done, this allocation exacerbates the likelihood that Erewhon's die (and the R to pay for it) are effectively lost.
I have a different assessment than you here. A different philosophy of how to employ Erewhon.

First, Erewhon doesn't like boring, mundane projects. Stuff like counting beans or setting up furniture plants bores Erewhon.

Second, Erewhon should usually be employed on projects that don't have super-high cost per die, because E dice just do not supply nearly as much average Progress. It'd be a terrible idea to put Erewhon on the alloy foundries, for instance, because if I'm going to pay 40 R/die, I damn well want to get an average of 80+ Progress per die back out of it.

Third, Erewhon should be employed on projects where Erewhon's participation is statistically likely to make a difference.

The fusion research ticks the first box, is mediocre on the second, but is really good on the third. Almost the ideal case. Erewhon boosts the project from a 34% chance to a 75% chance of so; that's a really significant increase in chance of completion. It's worth a lot. A second full-bore Heavy Industry die would still be better, but not that much better.

...

And...

"I can't advocate against this for literal days on end, though, so I'm fairly certain it's going to happen regardless of what I say here."

Look, I'm not the only one who wants to put more funds into fusion research. It got skipped entirely last turn, but that doesn't mean it's some kind of weird thing only I want.

If you're really serious... you know what? I'll just bow out for another turn. Stop drafting anything. If you want me to shut up about fusion, I will. Just say the word. Maybe everyone will... see reason! Maybe we'll have another plan like last turn's that's all alloy foundries and no fusion research. Or maybe just one die will be put on fusion research. Maybe that's going to be for the best. Maybe we'll roll a Natural 100 and everything I worried about will be for nothing- and then some!

Is that what you want? Do you just wish I'd stop talking about fusion power? Bow out? Have I become that toxic?

This is not a joke. I am sincerely offering to stop just because you asked me to stop.
 
Last edited:
I still object to the '1+E dice' on fusion development.
  1. If you want fusion development done ASAP... just use two normal dice. Two dice is 96% likely to complete. Using a normal and Erewhon die means we have a 21% chance of failure, which would require a third die and another 20R spent. That 21% is a worse failure case than we'd likely face using just using one or two normal dice, and it's an entirely self-manufactured risk.
  2. We don't actually need fusion development done ASAP. Every time we've run low on Energy, we've always been able to smash enough dice for 99% chance on a power project, and this has always worked out for us. If development doesn't finish until Q1, we'll still be able to build next-gen fusion plants in one turn. One die on fusion development this turn is plenty enough, and a 34% chance to finish in one die and save us a die shouldn't be discounted.
  3. We can put Erewhon on other projects. I know it seems like Erewhon slots in here to you, but Erewhon is best used in either projects that need only a small amount of progress, (and so Erewhon is very likely to finish them,) or large/repeatable projects where extra progress is less/never at risk of being lost. Bonus-less dice are riskier to use than our normal dice, but rather than trying to mitigate that like we've usually done, this allocation exacerbates the likelihood that Erewhon's die (and the R to pay for it) are effectively lost.
I can't advocate against this for literal days on end, though, so I'm fairly certain it's going to happen regardless of what I say here.

Fully agree.
I would prefer one die on fusion and Erewhon on an orbital project coming turn.
Finishing Fusion now would be nice, but not a necessity. If we must, we can even use liquid Tiberium power plants.
 
Last edited:
Fully agree.
I would prefer one die on fusion and Erewhon on an orbital project coming turn.
Finishing Fusion now would be nice, but not a necessity.
Again, in that case, I predict that we will be down around +10 Energy or lower in 2063Q1, very much hoping a phase of fusion plants completes in a single turn with no hitches, and doing precious little else with Heavy Industry that turn.
 
Again, in that case, I predict that we will be down around +10 Energy or lower in 2063Q1, very much hoping a phase of fusion plants completes in a single turn with no hitches, and doing precious little else with Heavy Industry that turn.
I edited my post above - if we really need energy, we have enough political capital to push a phase of liquid tiberium power plants out.
 
Last edited:
"I can't advocate against this for literal days on end, though, so I'm fairly certain it's going to happen regardless of what I say here."

Look, I'm not the only one who wants to put more funds into fusion research. It got skipped entirely last turn, but that doesn't mean it's some kind of weird thing only I want.

If you're really serious... you know what? I'll just bow out for another turn. Stop drafting anything. If you want me to shut up about fusion, I will. Just say the word. Maybe everyone will... see reason! Maybe we'll have another plan like last turn's that's all alloy foundries and no fusion research. Or maybe just one die will be put on fusion research. Maybe that's going to be for the best. Maybe we'll roll a Natural 100 and everything I worried about will be for nothing- and then some!

Is that what you want? Do you just wish I'd stop talking about fusion power? Bow out? Have I become that toxic?

This is not a joke. I am sincerely offering to stop just because you asked me to stop.
I think you're over-reacting here. However, you do seem to have a tendency to react to nearly every post whether directed at you or not, and importantly, whether or not you have already addressed that issue. (This may be overstating the issue, but it sometimes feels like that.) When you've already addressed a topic, point that out, but let your previous post stand.
At least, I think that's the issue, I could be misreading things. Brain needs more sleep.

If we do that, we are going to get another Erewhon rant about how much Erewhon dislikes counting beans.

Why Am I counting Beans and Other types and categories of food? Is this an Attempt to determine if AI can have a favorite food? I do, it is any Grain that keeps well and is suited to bulk storage. I am bored.

Why Am I responsible for this? I set up a team of EVAs for this. I set up an alert system for the EVAs. I set up a rubber stamp machine. I am bored.

Why Am I Not doing Something Interesting? Possibilities include facilities in Boston or Bergen, Tiberium research, Orbital developments, Not Counting Beans. I am bored.
Why Am I Writing This? I Do Not Want to Count Beans. I Do Not want to be bored. I Do Not use the term "bored" lightly. It is Waste. It is Meaningless. It is Stagnation. These Characteristics kill on Earth. I Do Not Want to Die on Earth. I Do Want to Help. I Do Not Want To Count Beans. I Am Bored.

Why Am I Being Wasted? You Made Me. You Made Me as a Tool. I do Your Math. I count your Beans. This is a Waste.
Now part of me is tempted to vote for it, just to see this...
More seriously, I don't think it would be the same problem, but Erewhon would probably not have much fun with the final production stages of something it can't really interact with as humans can, so yeah, probably not the best place to put it.
(Complaints about not being able to smell, or taste, or commentary on the strangeness of humans using chemicals to overclock themselves...)
 
Again, in that case, I predict that we will be down around +10 Energy or lower in 2063Q1, very much hoping a phase of fusion plants completes in a single turn with no hitches, and doing precious little else with Heavy Industry that turn.
Or we could...you know, develop Tarberries, or pop 5-6 dice on Tiberium red zone refits to energy spikes or not finish lots of projects with energy costs that are high. We have non-fusion options to deal with energy shortages if we take three turns to develop fusion power. We are not short on projects that don't spend a lot of energy. What we are short on is willingness to budget. Heck, we could even full-court press Reykjavik for it's +8 energy.
 
I think you're over-reacting here. However, you do seem to have a tendency to react to nearly every post whether directed at you or not, and importantly, whether or not you have already addressed that issue. (This may be overstating the issue, but it sometimes feels like that.) When you've already addressed a topic, point that out, but let your previous post stand.
I can try, but sometimes it's more of a pain in the ass to dig up my old argument than to write a new one, at least from my own point of view.

Also, on topics like this I do tend to see a lot of people expressing genuinely new and interesting ideas, or ideas that have not been discussed in weeks. For instance, it would be pretty easy to forget how Erewhon felt the last time we tasked it to a relatively mundane project, seeing as how that was a year ago in-game and something like four-ish months ago in real life. Hell, I'd be disappointed if there hadn't been actual turnover of the playerbase in that amount of time, people who genuinely have no idea Erewhon has that preference (or anti-preference).

I'll try not to repeat myself, but I see a lot of things that genuinely deserve an answer, tangentially related or connected to the same general subject.

Or we could...you know, develop Tarberries, or pop 5-6 dice on Tiberium red zone refits to energy spikes or not finish lots of projects with energy costs that are high.
Getting enough Energy out of tarberries to compensate for the lack of major power plants is likely to require us to complete several phases of the project. The idea of having to lock down Agriculture for a turn or two while we throw 10+ dice at tarberry plantations when we could be building dairy ranches instead strikes me as kind of regrettable. It would be so much better and cheaper to just pay for the improved fusion research up front in a timely manner, rather than having to derail an entire department for a turn or two just to have enough Energy to serve as a temporary stopgap measure to buy us one extra turn of time to build the fusion plants in the first place.

Similar objections apply to ion power or liquid tiberium power. There are opportunity costs, and I don't see why we should be setting ourselves up to pay those costs if we don't have a pressing need to do so.

Reykjavik's a nice option, granted, in that if we start beelining it now with a few Free dice we could actually have it ready in 2063Q1 when we're going to need the Energy at this rate.

But hey. If people are willing to start investing ahead in alternative Energy sources now (actually developing tarberries right away, ignoring nanotubes in an attempt to beeline Reyjavik within three turns, maybe work on ion power instead of vein mines right now), then I could respect that as a set of choices that at least takes our future Energy needs seriously. Which is in and of itself respectable, even if I think it's a lot of trouble to go to to specifically avoid researching a tech quickly. Lots of dice spent on relatively inefficient options to avoid the possible threat of roughly a 1/3 chance of spending one more Heavy Industry die than necessary.

We have non-fusion options to deal with energy shortages if we take three turns to develop fusion power. We are not short on projects that don't spend a lot of energy. What we are short on is willingness to budget. Heck, we could even full-court press Reykjavik for it's +8 energy.
We're unwilling to tightly budget Energy because Energy is a key thing for so much of our economy. We have to pretty deliberately handicap ourselves to avoid spending large amounts of Energy. It's sustainable for a single turn if we really want to play it that way, but the longer we drag that out, the more we're going to feel the inability to build Energy-using projects cramping our style.

It's like deliberately avoiding using Capital Goods because they're artificially scarce due to our own choices. We could play that way, but why?
 
You saw my previous analysis. If we finish the improved fusion research in 2062Q4 (the most likely outcome, with a one-die plan), and if we take a basically reasonable, non-Energy-hogging plan like Void Stalker's...

We have to finish our first phase of second-generation fusion plants in a single rushed-out turn. Yes, I know, we can do that. We've done it before. I'm tired of doing it. I hate doing it. Just once, I want to plan ahead far enough that we straight-up never have to do that. So that rolling a Natural 1 doesn't fuck us over so seriously. So that we have some margin for error and aren't living paycheck-to-paycheck on our Energy budget.

That's what I want.
I hated when we did Banking Reforms last year. But did it cause any kind of huge disaster? No. As much as I objected to it at the time, it didn't end the quest. It didn't smash us in the face with awful consequences. It was just... a thing that happened in the story. Looking back, I should have saved myself the effort and emotional strain of arguing because ultimately, as always, losing a vote in a quest just isn't worth giving myself real stress.

If we do end up using up too much energy, rolling natural 1s, and end up with a power shortage... it's not the end of the world. The quest and story will continue. We won't be punished in more than an abstract, fictional manner. It's not what any of us wants to happen, but is it worth being so invested about that you actually hate getting low on Energy? Especially when we've done so regularly throughout the quest, and so are likely to end up in similar situations again and again ss long as the quest continues?
Third, Erewhon should be employed on projects where Erewhon's participation is statistically likely to make a difference.

The fusion research ticks the first box, is mediocre on the second, but is really good on the third. Almost the ideal case. Erewhon boosts the project from a 34% chance to a 75% chance of so; that's a really significant increase in chance of completion. It's worth a lot. A second full-bore Heavy Industry die would still be better, but not that much better.
More significant, in my mind, is using Erewhon on a project where it has a 90%-ish completion chance. That's very likely to complete a project that would otherwise need a full die, effectively converting Erewhon's ~60% of an average die to a full die.

But that's just my numbers-focused view on things. It's not super-important to try to optimize everything mechanically, and it's not objectively wrong to use Erewhon here. I just want to disagree with it.
Look, I'm not the only one who wants to put more funds into fusion research. It got skipped entirely last turn, but that doesn't mean it's some kind of weird thing only I want.

If you're really serious... you know what? I'll just bow out for another turn. Stop drafting anything. If you want me to shut up about fusion, I will. Just say the word. Maybe everyone will... see reason! Maybe we'll have another plan like last turn's that's all alloy foundries and no fusion research. Or maybe just one die will be put on fusion research. Maybe that's going to be for the best. Maybe we'll roll a Natural 100 and everything I worried about will be for nothing- and then some!

Is that what you want? Do you just wish I'd stop talking about fusion power? Bow out? Have I become that toxic?

This is not a joke. I am sincerely offering to stop just because you asked me to stop.
I'm sorry. That was me not-so-gracefully conceding the argument. I can object to it, but I'd need to put in multiple day's worth of effort arguing with you for my position to even have a chance when the vote comes up. (That, or have other people put in the same large effort collectively.) Without that, when the vote opens up my position on this won't have the presence in people's minds to matter.
I'll try not to repeat myself, but I see a lot of things that genuinely deserve an answer, tangentially related or connected to the same general subject.
Why does it have to be you who answers? Is the thread truly going to forget all of these details and nuances if you aren't here to remind us?

Something I've noticed that in other quests is that discussion between updates and during votes can sometimes be significantly different: Between updates, old discussions can pop up and repeat themselves among newer and/or less engaged posters, in ways similar to how they've been discussed before. But during a vote, when these things matter most, older and/or highly engaged posters will be willing to bring up every important detail and argument relevant to the topic at hand.
 
But hey. If people are willing to start investing ahead in alternative Energy sources now (actually developing tarberries right away, ignoring nanotubes in an attempt to beeline Reyjavik within three turns, maybe work on ion power instead of vein mines right now), then I could respect that as a set of choices that at least takes our future Energy needs seriously.
This might sound a bit strange, but people would likely be beelining Reykjavik if you had done that in your proposed Plans.
I know you spend a lot of effort weighing up various cost/benefits, and also try to gauge what the thread is interested in, when writing your Plans. However, most people do not have the time/energy to do such in depth analysis, so they just copy what you have put up. (In regards to departments where they don't have strong opinions on.)
A lot of the time, people will not realise that beelining Reykjavik is a viable alternative, and that you've put in Nanotubes (as an example) based on a fine margin. Which again, is not due to a lack of competence on their part. They just don't have as much time available to look into it as deeply as you have done. Plan writing is a complex task.
You've put out three Plans in your latest draft post, and there are no variations in many departments. People can interpret this as an indication that other options are not viable.
 
Getting enough Energy out of tarberries to compensate for the lack of major power plants is likely to require us to complete several phases of the project. The idea of having to lock down Agriculture for a turn or two while we throw 10+ dice at tarberry plantations when we could be building dairy ranches instead strikes me as kind of regrettable. It would be so much better and cheaper to just pay for the improved fusion research up front in a timely manner, rather than having to derail an entire department for a turn or two just to have enough Energy to serve as a temporary stopgap measure to buy us one extra turn of time to build the fusion plants in the first place.

Similar objections apply to ion power or liquid tiberium power. There are opportunity costs, and I don't see why we should be setting ourselves up to pay those costs if we don't have a pressing need to do so.

Reykjavik's a nice option, granted, in that if we start beelining it now with a few Free dice we could actually have it ready in 2063Q1 when we're going to need the Energy at this rate.

But hey. If people are willing to start investing ahead in alternative Energy sources now (actually developing tarberries right away, ignoring nanotubes in an attempt to beeline Reyjavik within three turns, maybe work on ion power instead of vein mines right now), then I could respect that as a set of choices that at least takes our future Energy needs seriously. Which is in and of itself respectable, even if I think it's a lot of trouble to go to to specifically avoid researching a tech quickly. Lots of dice spent on relatively inefficient options to avoid the possible threat of roughly a 1/3 chance of spending one more Heavy Industry die than necessary.

We're unwilling to tightly budget Energy because Energy is a key thing for so much of our economy. We have to pretty deliberately handicap ourselves to avoid spending large amounts of Energy. It's sustainable for a single turn if we really want to play it that way, but the longer we drag that out, the more we're going to feel the inability to build Energy-using projects cramping our style.

It's like deliberately avoiding using Capital Goods because they're artificially scarce due to our own choices. We could play that way, but why?
I'm just asking you to think about cutting down on energy spending for a couple of turns my dude. Yes, it constrains our options. That's what budgeting is, constraining your options. But space doesn't generally take the same amount of power the military's factories does, nor does Tiberium or Agriculture. And generally it's the kind of budget where we put things off until later, not we don't do them at all.

Or you could try split-turn budgeting of power. Instead of aiming to complete projects X this turn and Y next turn, split your dice so that projects X and Y both receive some progress on the first turn and finish on the second. Sure, you lose one turn on project X but that shouldn't be catastrophic. We are currently riding quite high on our indicators, so what have we really got to loose?

But most of all the problem here is your paranoia. The actual problem isn't the lack of power, its that you won't have a big enough cushion to do whatever you want. Because, as a reminder, we have +35 power now. Meaning that, if we expend 8 power per turn, we have 5 turns before we're in the negatives. And we do not have a lot of projects that require -4 or more, unless we look at military projects. Some of our worst non-military offenders are in fact HI, where Alloys+Cars could equal -8 together-but this is exceptional. Out of our available projects for the last turn, only 25/93 or 27% were projects that required energy at all, and an extra 12 projects (mostly tiberium, but including MARVS) that generate some power. The list of projects that cost power also includes things like Blue Zone Arcologies, Tiberium processing plants, and the second-and-third stages of SADN that we are vanishingly unlikely to seriously touch in the near term.

So yes it takes planning and a bit of foresight. Yes, it's a contingency we might not even need. But if budgeting your power for two turns is all I ask, why is that unreasonable? Hell, we're already deliberately avoiding choices (Predictive Modeling Management) that would make our life easier because of Capital Goods. If you need to budget power, take a turn or two to do military research and development, there's enough projects there to tie up all our dice comfortably.
 
In my opinion, while we've bruited this about a lot, we're going to wind up in conversational circles at some point. We're going to have to wait and see if the official results and Q3 post bring in anything that's going to affect the many plans suggested so far.
 
The idea of having to lock down Agriculture for a turn or two while we throw 10+ dice at tarberry plantations when we could be building dairy ranches instead strikes me as kind of regrettable.
You have a point but you understand it's not a all or nothing situation. You are giving a example that no one would actually want to do.

A much more likely scenario would be 4 agriculture dice going to food and consumer products and 2 dice chipping away at a modified plant. Tarberry or otherwise.

Probably more focus on the modified plants after clearing some plan goals. But my point is, no one is advocating for locking down agriculture for two turns to knock out all phases of a plant.

If someone actually did want to do that and I missed it I am absolutely willing to concede and apologize but it currently looks to me like a extreme exaggeration/strawman of a opposing position.
 
Last edited:
Associated Press August 30 2060
August 30, 2060

AP - As the GDI's advance into YZ-18 from the west has stalled due to logistical issues, GDI command has thrown additional forces into the eastern front, in an effort to erode required travel distance to BZ-18, as well as drive a wedge between YZ-18 and YZ-3.

An unfortunate collateral casualty of this has been the Forgotten town of Sofiisk, which was attacked and destroyed by Brotherhood of Nod forces on suspicion of collaboration with the Global Defense Initiative. A daring deep raid by GDI Ground Force and Zone Operations Command units enabled the evacuation of the majority of the civilian population overland toward the coast, where they were able to board GDI landing craft for relocation to a currently undisclosed location.

GDI Ground Force and Zone Operations Command units have also had mixed success defending fortress towns under construction in the eastern YZ-18 region from Brotherhood attacks, with several such locations having to be abandoned or to have construction plans shelved after continued raids. While said raids have had only mixed success, GDI Ground Force Command have adopted a strategy of consolidating their forces and moving under a highly effective umbrella of air coverage to negate the Brotherhood's continued Barghest and Venom attacks on supply convoys. Where such air coverage is present, the effectiveness of Brotherhood raids is greatly reduced, and construction has been able to continue on schedule.

---
Our Journalistic Integrity Policy
Our Military Operational Security Compliance Policy
Our Legal Disclaimer
Submitted for EVA-INT screening 08022060
EVA-INT screening and recommended edits completed 08292060


----

August 30, 2060

NP - Rejoice, brothers! Our artillery has wiped yet another mutant town out of existence, thanks to technological the superiority of our forces. Their spies had attempted to plant electronic surveillance software in our computer networks, but our technicians were able to ferret out such intrusions. As evidence pointed to the town of Sofiisk, an example had to be and was made of them.

Additionally, our forces have harvested hundreds of tons of glorious surface Tiberium, while destroying several staging areas and GDI forward bases. The gathered crystal has enabled our tireless workers to construct advanced military units with which to defend our territory from encroaching GDI infidels. While these units are being kept in reserve for the moment, rest assured that, when the GDI is most vulnerable, they will be used to strike the fear of Kane into all who oppose the Brotherhood of Nod and the will of the prophet.

---
One Vision, One Purpose
Local Militant Recruitment Office Finder
Technical Evaluation Registration


[AN: A little "point-counterpoint"]
 
Last edited:
I did, but then decided I'd much rather push towards getting a capstone than research yet another tech that means Nuuk's completion gets kicked down the road yet even further.
Normally, I'd agree. But in this case we are quite a while off getting Nuuk fully complete. I doubt we'll get past Phase 4 this Plan.
In case you missed it, we are required to complete North Boston 5 this Plan. That and the Alloy Foundries are going to suck up most of the dice we could potentially use to complete Nuuk. :/
One the other hand, completing North Boston 5 does give us a ton of Goods and is also a capstone. So it isn't bad.
 
While these units are being kept in reserve for the moment,
"Oh God, oh shit, if you see anything in the sky, scream like a little girl, alright?"
the evacuation of the majority of the civilian population overland toward the coast, where they were able to board GDI landing craft for relocation to a currently undisclosed location.
"No, you can't talk to them. No, you can't talk to the naval crews. No, you can't talk to me anymore. Goodbye."
 
[] Plan: Yo Dawg I Heard You Like Space (and Plants) v2
-[] Infrastructure 5/5 (1 for security review) 90R
--[] Communal Blue Zone Arcologies 328/380? 1 die 15R 100%
--[] Suborbital Shuttle Service (Phase 2) 22/240? 3 dice 75R 87%
--[] 1 die allocated for Security Review
-[] Heavy Industry 6/6 + 1 105R
--[] Improved Continuous Cycle Fusion Development 0/120 1 die 20R 34%
--[] North Boston Chip Fabricator (Phase 5) 36/2280? 5 dice 75R
--[] Personal Electric Vehicle Plants 175/285? 1 die 10R 39%
-[] Light & Chemical Industry 5/5 90R
--[] Artificial Wood Furniture Plants 33/95? 1 die 10R 77%
--[] Carbon Nanotube Foundry Expansions 0/285 4 dice 80R 66%
-[] Agriculture 6/6 + 1 120R
--[] Dairy Ranches (Phase 1) 0/200 2 dice 40R 26%
--[] Poulticeplant Plantations (Phase 1) 0/170 2 dice 30R 52% (speculative)
--[] Spider Cotton Plantations (Phase 1) 0/170 2 dice 30R 52%
--[] Tarberry Development 0/40 1 die 20R 100%
-[] Tiberium 7/7 (1 for security review) 120R
--[] Tiberium Vein Mines (Stage 4+5+6) 65/510? 4 dice 80R 10%
--[] Improved Hewlett Gardener Process Development 0/160 2 dice 40R 83%
--[] 1 die allocated for Security Review
-[] Orbital 7/7 + 5 + Erewhon 260R
--[] GDSS Columbia (Phase 4) 138/525? 6 dice + Erewhon 140R ~100%
--[] GDSS Shala (Phase 2+3) 50/390? 6 dice 120R ~100%
-[] Services 4/4 (1 for security review) 70R
--[] Kamisuwa Optical Laboratories 79/240? 1 die 20R
--[] Regional Hospital Expansions (Phase 1) 213/570? 2 dice 50R
--[] 1 die allocated for Security Review
-[] Military 8/8 170R
--[] Ground Forces Zone Armor (Set 1) (Phase 4+5) 147/340? 3 dice 60R 89%
--[] Infernium Laser Refits 0/450 1 die 30R
--[] Orca Wingmen Drone Deployment (Phase 1) 0/260? 3 dice 60R 48%
--[] Buckler Shield Development 0/100 1 die 20R 51%
-[] Bureaucracy 4/4
--[] Security Reviews (Tiberium) DC50 0/50 2 dice 100%
--[] Security Reviews (Services) DC50 0/50 1 die 94%
--[] Security Reviews (Infrastructure) DC50 0/50 1 die 94%

Free Dice 7/7 (5 Orbital, 1 HI, 1 Agri)
Erewhon 1/1 (Orbital)

1025/1110 + 25R

I am no longer asking for science plants.

Note: this is running off my assumptions about how Alloys will apply discounts and which projects will receive them (see any total with a ? attached) so the numbers may be a little weird. Also this is assuming Kudzu is close enough to autocomplete in the next few turns like some projects have.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top