@Ithillid Because it might affect plans a bit, what are the negative effects we're currently having due to the lack of modern production tools that Kure Machine Works solves? And if we built it after say, the Refits, would we need to do another project to gain their benefits? Or will they just gradually roll out and improve everything with modern tools?

Sorry if this has been asked before. Just wondering if we need to incorporate those into plans with how it's basically the last critical Capital Goods project we completely lack current production in. And now we've got a major project to fix the lack in previously built factories.
 
Question for when you're awake: does progress roll over here, or would it require me to set up 2 separate Probe projects if I want to make 2?

Yes, I'm working on a plan that assembles 2 extra Probes this turn, so that we can launch the full 5 we need at Mars+moons during the launch window.
We can launch probes to Mars outside the launch window using a basic drive system. See [-]Launch Olberth-Mars-B.

@sunrise The probe built using the Satellite Factory Assembly can be launched immediately. So shouldn't it be sent on the moon mission this turn?
 
@sunrise The probe built using the Satellite Factory Assembly can be launched immediately. So shouldn't it be sent on the moon mission this turn?
I wanted to be sure we have the probes needed so we can send all 5 to mars next turn that way we can use the drive system we have to launch a rover once those are done or use it to launch a mission to a more remote part of the solar system.
This is due the fact the mars mission has travel times and the moon probes arrive the same turn they are launched.
 
We can launch probes to Mars outside the launch window using a basic drive system. See [-]Launch Olberth-Mars-B.

@sunrise The probe built using the Satellite Factory Assembly can be launched immediately. So shouldn't it be sent on the moon mission this turn?
True, but it would be nice to be able to send the whole flock off at once. Also, assuming the Leopard is ready for use next turn, it allows one launch to bring all of them off the ground.
 
[X] Plan To the Moon

Both plans are very similar (and big) but I think I prefer projects like lander development and working with the Enterprise. Coffee sucking up 3 Bureaucracy dice seems like something that can wait, too.
 
@Ithillid Because it might affect plans a bit, what are the negative effects we're currently having due to the lack of modern production tools that Kure Machine Works solves? And if we built it after say, the Refits, would we need to do another project to gain their benefits? Or will they just gradually roll out and improve everything with modern tools?
Bunch of little minor stuff. Not worth worrying about too much.
 

The problem I suppose is that Boston is the most efficient use of dice and resources so long as you ignore energy. Our next best option for cap goods is heavy industrial zones, each dice would be 10R more expensive and the project still requires 500 progress... Even if there is a second heavy zone project to get the other 8 cap goods, it's still going to be almost twice as expensive resource wise for a saving of maybe 4 dice.

This of course ignores the fact that the industrial zone takes 8 power instead of 4, uses twice the labor as Boston and of course provides no consumer goods.

The more I think about it the more Boston looks like a very practical option - perhaps not attempting to shock it in 2 turns, although that in itself is surprisingly not a completely awful idea.

We probably could afford to go all in on HI for 3 turns, 7 dice per turn is 21 dice which is extremely close to 100% chance of finishing Boston. That would leave us 9 dice in HI for say power projects or as they are free dice actions that can be used elsewhere (LI for the super conductors).
 
Plan Draft Power Walk Boston

-[]Heavy Industry 5/5 + 4 110R
--[] North Boston Chip Fabrication (Phase 4) 64/1200 4 dice 60R
--[] Fusion Power Prototype 45/200 2 dice 40R 42%
--[] Yellow Zone Power Grid Extension (Phase 2) 101/275 3 dice 15R 77%
-[]Light & Chemical Industry 3/3 + 1 80R
--[] Bulk Plastics Facilities 91/200 2 dice 20R 77%
--[] Superconductor Foundries 0/200 2 dice 60R 8%
-[]Agriculture 3/3 35R
--[] Vertical Farming projects 227/250 1 die 15R 100% (10% omake used)
--[] Spider Cotton Development 0/40 1 die 20R 88%
-[]Tiberium 2/5 50R
--[] Red Zone Containment Lines (Phase 3) 8/180 2 dice 50R 54%
-[]Orbital 3/3 2/2 F 45R
--[] Expand Orbital Communications Network (Phase 2) 108/135 1 die 10R+ 100%
--[] GDSS Philadelphia II (Phase 1) 59/90 1 die 20R+ 97%
--[] Orbital Cleanup (Phase 2) 58/90 1 die 15R 96%
-[]Services 4/4 95R
--[] Scrin Research Institutions 65/350 3 dice 90R 24%
--[] Childcare and Preschool programs 155/200 1 die 5R 98%
-[]Military 5/5 80R
--[] Shell Plants (Phase 3) 120/150 1 die 10R 98% (15% omake used)
--[] Super MARV Reclaimater Fleet (RZ-6 South) 0/210 2 3 dice 60R 45%
--[] Advanced Myomer Works 0/125 1 die 10R

490/490 + 5

Here's what a 'powerwalk' plan might look like for Boston. Four dice per quarter, around 80% chance to complete in four quarters and guaranteed in five.

The main trouble is that this pushes the burden of cap goods onto LCI, and we need to spend free dice on more power, in this quarter on YZ Power Gen, next quarter or two on Superconducters.
 
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I really hope we get Kure machine works soon. That seems like something we would want for more advanced projects.
I see what you mean. It's unattractive in that it's got high dice progress requirements for limited capital goods return on investment... But the option text strongly suggests that this is a project that unlocks other better projects.

The problem I suppose is that Boston is the most efficient use of dice and resources so long as you ignore energy.
In terms of "options that actually promise real progress to resolving our needs instead of just chipping away at them," it's by far the most efficient one even if you don't ignore Energy. We have a bunch of options that collectively are worth +4 Capital Goods and cost no Energy (Enterprise Phase 3, Bulk Plastics Facilities, and Superconductor Foundries, and that last one is even a net Energy gain)... But past that, what more will there be? We have no reasonable assurance that there will be an endless supply of such options, with the possible exception of more Enterprise phases and those are fucking expensive.

And once we're resigning ourselves to spending Energy to get Capital Goods, which realistically we must... Well, North Boston gives 4 Capital Goods per point of Energy consumed. Nothing else can match that.

The more I think about it the more Boston looks like a very practical option - perhaps not attempting to shock it in 2 turns, although that in itself is surprisingly not a completely awful idea.
I'd rather not commit to rushing it because we do have other needs and other things that are worth spending free dice on. There's nothing inherently wrong with finishing it in 3-4 turns.

The problem with Boston Phase 4, I feel, is mostly the dice cost.

It will take at least two quarters, more likely three or four to rush Boston with 10 dice. This also precludes any other HI projects for at least that first quarter.
Yes, but my point is, that's not "our whole budget," or even a majority of our budget. It would not be difficult for Dr. Granger, in character, to justify the investment as long as there weren't any obvious adverse immediate consequences like "massive blackouts in Blue Zones the world over."

It's a big project with big costs and maybe we should take it slow... but we should probably do it anyway, sooner or later, trying to finish some time in the remaining 11 turns of this Four Year Plan. Because we still need to produce a great deal more Capital Goods for a wide variety of projects, and North Boston is by far the most attractive option for doing so.

All the alternatives are worse on important metrics. The only one that can even compete with North Boston is Blue Zone Heavy Industrial Sectors, which would be very slightly more efficient on the "dice rolled per Capital Goods unit produced" metric, at the price of not producing any Consumer Goods byproducts, costing 25 Resources/die instead of 15, and consuming twice as much Labor and Energy when we're inevitably going to be hard up for Energy for the duration of this Plan.

While I'm not saying North Boston is something we should be trying to beeline before the election what with everything else going on, I don't think there's a good alternative to building it in the medium term (that is, the rest of this Plan).

What is with this Carter stuff? Coffee crisis? Wut? I dont' see that option in the turn.
A Nod saboteur destroyed our entire space program's precious and nigh-irreplaceable coffee reserves.
 
I can't help but feel like we should work on Tokyo and Kure before we do stage 4 of Boston, I imagine there are some synergistic effects there from the descriptions.
 
In terms of "options that actually promise real progress to resolving our needs instead of just chipping away at them," it's by far the most efficient one even if you don't ignore Energy. We have a bunch of options that collectively are worth +4 Capital Goods and cost no Energy (Enterprise Phase 3, Bulk Plastics Facilities, and Superconductor Foundries, and that last one is even a net Energy gain)... But past that, what more will there be? We have no reasonable assurance that there will be an endless supply of such options, with the possible exception of more Enterprise phases and those are fucking expensive.

Actually, unless I've missed something the only projects we have access to right now that give more then +2 Capital Goods is Boston / Heavy Industrial Zones. Superconductors gives +2 and Bulk Plastics / Enterprise phase 3 +1.

And yeah, the Industrial zones cost 8 power as opposed to Bostons 4.

It might genuinely be the case that we have little choice but to put some serious effort into Boston considering how many Capital Goods we need. I suppose Tokyo would work too at least as a better choice than the Heavy Zones. It depends if we seriously want to persue the factory refits in the near future, if yes then we should start Boston. If no then Tokyo.

Because we do still need those Capital Goods and I'll feel much better about things when we have [ ] Expand Strategic Planning Apparatus which apparently will have some fairly significant affects on what options we have. Like opening up new phase projects to work on and generally better planning.
 
Man, this thread caught Boston4 fever really quick. One new analysis from Derpmind, and a confirmation form the QM, and suddenly everything looks different.

I'm more in favour of the 'power walk' Boston4 option, due to the upcoming election mainly because of the yellow zone power grid being needed to enfranchise yellow zoners, but not super strongly, as it does look like we can get most things we need even with 10 dice on Boston4. Remarkable.
 
Do we know if the Chemical Precursor Plants are gating something?
They seem a little uneconomical compared to other options, although Capital Goods from LCI dice are rare.
 
I think no one has said the biggest benefit of Boston yet. QM has confirmed (in Discord) that if the factory refits are done, GDI Military Dominance is assured for 2 years. That is 8 turns. We will go from being on the backfoot, to winning in a big way. This would refit factories not only built during the quest, but even before that. That's why it's being seriously considered (but of course before the election is a meme plan).
 
Tokyo Phase 3 is what 1150 over all progress? And if it follows the trend of Boston then phase 3 is the first phase of Tokyo to give Capital Goods. I think that opening Tokyo becomes practical when we're looking at Boston phase 5 but only if we're looking for consumer goods.
875 progress. And we are looking for consumer goods, what with needing to erode the power of the Free Market Party before they divide up all our income and economic systems to start up megacorporations again. A crash rebuild of the wartime factories before the election doesn't help with the election. At all. It should be done after.
 
While I'm not saying North Boston is something we should be trying to beeline before the election what with everything else going on, I don't think there's a good alternative to building it in the medium term (that is, the rest of this Plan).
By an extension of that logic, though, there's no reason to put off Boston 4, because we really need those cap goods to fulfill our other obligations in the Plan. The longer we wait, the less time and dice we will have to turn chips into completed goals.

If we commit to Boston 4, we have to at least power-walk it, and start now or after the election. (I presume that's after this next quarter.)

Do we know if the Chemical Precursor Plants are gating something?
They seem a little uneconomical compared to other options, although Capital Goods from LCI dice are rare.
I presume hidden synergies with Bulk Plastics, maybe Superconductor Foundries?

(Energy isn't so much rare as nonexistent outside of HI and Superconducters--one of the reasons I want it so much.)
 
875 progress. And we are looking for consumer goods, what with needing to erode the power of the Free Market Party before they divide up all our income and economic systems to start up megacorporations again. A crash rebuild of the wartime factories before the election doesn't help with the election. At all. It should be done after.
I thought the phases doubled each time? Tokyo phase 1 is 150, it follows that it goes 300/600 like with Boston right?

And Boston phase 4 does give 8 consumer goods which should be equivalent to phase 3 Tokyo no?

We've already done heavy damage to the FMP. Even if we don't fully dedicate ourselves to the consoom we'll still be putting them on life support - we would have to actively ignore basically all the options we have to not have another 20+ consumer goods come election time.
 
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