Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
Hmm.
Some cursory research tells me that ducks are possible animals to include in a coat-of-arms, symbolizing vigilance and courage.
So we can totally include a duck in the emblem of WEB-MAT, to honour the legacy of Duck Club.
Some cursory research tells me that ducks are possible animals to include in a coat-of-arms, symbolizing vigilance and courage.
So we can totally include a duck in the emblem of WEB-MAT, to honour the legacy of Duck Club.
Even if it's cleared out: a library deep underground and hanging over An black abyss that even the dwarfs think is a little too deep... is cool as hell, but not the best for attracting visitors.
Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
Ducks are vicious, we should pick a nicer animal, like lions or something.Hmm.
Some cursory research tells me that ducks are possible animals to include in a coat-of-arms, symbolizing vigilance and courage.
So we can totally include a duck in the emblem of WEB-MAT, to honour the legacy of Duck Club.
Omegahugger
Inattentive Idiot
So regarding the Van Horstmann quantum treachery, I'd argue that we're dealing with four different possible scenarios. And in each of them it'd be in our best interests to hire Egrim. Whether or not recruiting him is worth an action is obviously an entirely different point (and whether you want him to appear more in the quest a separate third point), but if the question is whether or not we should think of hiring I think the answer is clearly yes.
Scenario 1: Van Horstmann is 100% the decent and talented Magister he seems to be. This is by far the most likely scenario and the one most supported by the text, and in this case hiring him is obviously a good idea. We get an almost Lord Magister tier Wizard of a Wind we don't currently have and who Mathilde happens to get along with personally. Like, how many Hysh Magisters can we say that about? Reeling him in is clearly a good idea.
Scenario 2: Van Horstmann is on the up and up, but has some Black Magistry-worthy secret hidden. Not too likely a story, but it's fully plausible and would explain the vague, cagey remarks that BoneyM loves to throw at us. It's also the sound of thing that sounds really bad (and could potentially be that) but is the exact same situation that Mathilde has been in for the entirety of her Magisterhood. Arguably her apprenticehood as well if you count "is currently part of a Lahmian conspiracy". In this case as well, hiring Egrimm is obviously a good idea as well seeing as, well, all of the downsides from this option compared to the first are stuff we're already used to handling.
Scenario 3: Van Horstmann has actively studied Dhar (or other Black Magistry-worthy subjects), but intends to use them in defense of Order. You could say that this is a subsection of Scenario 2, but I'd argue that there is a qualitative difference between "has knowledge" and "has knowledge with the intent to use it". And if this happens, then we absolutely want to get our grubby hands on Egrimm. While the reasons I'd be partial to him are obvious, matter of fact is that if he's within our circles it'll be that much easier to convince him not to do that obviously bad thing that might seem like a good idea. If we let him stew in his current position, whatever drove him to study Dhar in the first place will only continue to push him down that path, but if we pull him away from that environment we might be able to stop that. Or at least make sure he practices properly...
Scenario 4: Van Horstmann is actually a traitor just biding his time. This is the worst case scenario, but even in this unlikely and unsupported-by-the-text scenario, I'd still say it's in our best interest to recruit him. Why? Because Egrimm has somehow kept himself being a high-ranking Black Magister a secret for most of his life, and if left alone he'll likely keep being hidden until the right time comes and he reveals himself at the absolute worst timing. If we bring him in, not only will he spend much more time in greatsword range, he will also be put in an entirely new enviroment with entirely new situations, which brings entirely new ways for him to screw up and get caught. He know that Traitor!Egrimm can stay hidden within the College of Light because he's done so (... Unless the entire College are traitors I suppose), but he has yet to prove that he can hide within the WEB-MAT. Keep your enemies closer and all that jazz.
So no matter what the truth actually is, I think it's in our best interests to recruit Egrimm if we in any way can spare the action. Bonus points because the -10 malus are unlikely to literally explode on us here.
Also, just for the record, I would like to restate my theory that if Egrimm van Horstmann turns out to be in the pocket of any of the Big Four, my money's on Nurgle. He's the only one who didn't turn up to help Slaanesh with their mountain problem. Come on, even Khorne showed up! Khorne hates Slaanesh!
Scenario 1: Van Horstmann is 100% the decent and talented Magister he seems to be. This is by far the most likely scenario and the one most supported by the text, and in this case hiring him is obviously a good idea. We get an almost Lord Magister tier Wizard of a Wind we don't currently have and who Mathilde happens to get along with personally. Like, how many Hysh Magisters can we say that about? Reeling him in is clearly a good idea.
Scenario 2: Van Horstmann is on the up and up, but has some Black Magistry-worthy secret hidden. Not too likely a story, but it's fully plausible and would explain the vague, cagey remarks that BoneyM loves to throw at us. It's also the sound of thing that sounds really bad (and could potentially be that) but is the exact same situation that Mathilde has been in for the entirety of her Magisterhood. Arguably her apprenticehood as well if you count "is currently part of a Lahmian conspiracy". In this case as well, hiring Egrimm is obviously a good idea as well seeing as, well, all of the downsides from this option compared to the first are stuff we're already used to handling.
Scenario 3: Van Horstmann has actively studied Dhar (or other Black Magistry-worthy subjects), but intends to use them in defense of Order. You could say that this is a subsection of Scenario 2, but I'd argue that there is a qualitative difference between "has knowledge" and "has knowledge with the intent to use it". And if this happens, then we absolutely want to get our grubby hands on Egrimm. While the reasons I'd be partial to him are obvious, matter of fact is that if he's within our circles it'll be that much easier to convince him not to do that obviously bad thing that might seem like a good idea. If we let him stew in his current position, whatever drove him to study Dhar in the first place will only continue to push him down that path, but if we pull him away from that environment we might be able to stop that. Or at least make sure he practices properly...
Scenario 4: Van Horstmann is actually a traitor just biding his time. This is the worst case scenario, but even in this unlikely and unsupported-by-the-text scenario, I'd still say it's in our best interest to recruit him. Why? Because Egrimm has somehow kept himself being a high-ranking Black Magister a secret for most of his life, and if left alone he'll likely keep being hidden until the right time comes and he reveals himself at the absolute worst timing. If we bring him in, not only will he spend much more time in greatsword range, he will also be put in an entirely new enviroment with entirely new situations, which brings entirely new ways for him to screw up and get caught. He know that Traitor!Egrimm can stay hidden within the College of Light because he's done so (... Unless the entire College are traitors I suppose), but he has yet to prove that he can hide within the WEB-MAT. Keep your enemies closer and all that jazz.
So no matter what the truth actually is, I think it's in our best interests to recruit Egrimm if we in any way can spare the action. Bonus points because the -10 malus are unlikely to literally explode on us here.
Also, just for the record, I would like to restate my theory that if Egrimm van Horstmann turns out to be in the pocket of any of the Big Four, my money's on Nurgle. He's the only one who didn't turn up to help Slaanesh with their mountain problem. Come on, even Khorne showed up! Khorne hates Slaanesh!
Mathilde yes. It'll be fine. She just has to convince everyone she was actually a hysh emperor dragon this entire time. And then convince the hysh emperor dragon to wear a petticoat and WH hat.
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- Location
- Canada
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Dammit, @BoneyM, I was enjoying that hot chocolate. And now I need to clean my desk.
We must.
In other opinions, Johann is a must for web-mat. He's already a researcher at heart.
Hmm.
Some cursory research tells me that ducks are possible animals to include in a coat-of-arms, symbolizing vigilance and courage.
So we can totally include a duck in the emblem of WEB-MAT, to honour the legacy of Duck Club.
We should tell everyone the mascot is a drake, and then leave it ambiguous as to whether we're referring to the mallard or to the reptile.
As for the location, they all sound good to me, I don't have a preference.
- Location
- Earth
Regarding Karag Nar—the main difference seems to be accessibility to the public and convenience for Mathilde. But maybe putting the library at the top of a kilometer's worth of stairs would incentivize scholars in the coming centuries to develop new advancements in vertical transport systems, perhaps a kind of lifting mechanism—
Oh. Elevators have already been invented. In that case: @BoneyM Are elevators a viable installation in Karag Nar (or any other mountain) that could help mitigate the effects of being in otherwise less easily accessible locations?
NeonLights
Formerly Reliable_2IC
- Location
- In shambles
Karag Nar is perfect for the library location. It's where WEBMAT is located, it's where the librarians can live, it's easily accessible to the wider public, there's already the comforts of civilization nearby, there is a local garrison, and we can always mine for more space because it's a mountain in a Karak. That and it was previously mentioned that the dwarf and human population could both fit inside without stepping on each others toes, so we should never want for space anyway.
[]Plan: AV+Shadow+Tongs
-[ ] MAX: Recruit him into the research branch of WEB-MAT
-[ ] JOHANN: Recruit him into the research branch of WEB-MAT
-[ ] DUCK: Continue to work with Panoramia with implementing the Waaaghsoak Mushrooms as an aid to spellcasting.
-[ ] EIC: Insert agents into a particular province, cult, company, or institution to start gathering their secrets. (Talabecland Branch of the Cult of Kurnous)
-[ ] Investigate how the Vitae reacts to a power stone.
-[ ] Investigate the possibility of using one Wind to directly manipulate another.
--[] The Gambler
-[ ] Gain enough control of your unruly shadow to still it temporarily.
-[ ] Attempt to recruit Egrimm van Horstmann into WEB-MAT
-[ ] SERENITY: Write a paper: Daemonic Concealment of Karak Vlag
-[ ] PENTHOUSE: Build a basic tower of single-Wind environments for each of the 'missing' Winds: Light, Amber, Amethyst, and Gold: 300gc for four towers.
-[ ] The Gambler: specify an action this will apply to.
Max and Johann have the track record to be self-explanatory picks. I'm choosing Panoramia over Adela because we don't have anything for Adela to do, and this is the last duckling action we have. EIC because there have been positive noises for spycraft and poking elven gods. I've spoken my piece on Karag Nar.
I think now is the best time for the powerstone AV. It's examining existing properties rather than finding a new use for the substance, so we can lean on our towers and book yet still get a desirable result. Tongs as well, because that has been a subject of much debate. Shadow binding may look controversial, but between the Grey and White towers we actually have a decent bonus to it, and we can interact with non-Collegiate people without them thinking we're possessed. Horstmann I don't particularity like or despise, but Inspiration is a stupidly useful spell, and he has a research trio under him.
[]Plan: AV+Shadow+Tongs
-[ ] MAX: Recruit him into the research branch of WEB-MAT
-[ ] JOHANN: Recruit him into the research branch of WEB-MAT
-[ ] DUCK: Continue to work with Panoramia with implementing the Waaaghsoak Mushrooms as an aid to spellcasting.
-[ ] EIC: Insert agents into a particular province, cult, company, or institution to start gathering their secrets. (Talabecland Branch of the Cult of Kurnous)
-[ ] Investigate how the Vitae reacts to a power stone.
-[ ] Investigate the possibility of using one Wind to directly manipulate another.
--[] The Gambler
-[ ] Gain enough control of your unruly shadow to still it temporarily.
-[ ] Attempt to recruit Egrimm van Horstmann into WEB-MAT
-[ ] SERENITY: Write a paper: Daemonic Concealment of Karak Vlag
-[ ] PENTHOUSE: Build a basic tower of single-Wind environments for each of the 'missing' Winds: Light, Amber, Amethyst, and Gold: 300gc for four towers.
-[ ] The Gambler: specify an action this will apply to.
Max and Johann have the track record to be self-explanatory picks. I'm choosing Panoramia over Adela because we don't have anything for Adela to do, and this is the last duckling action we have. EIC because there have been positive noises for spycraft and poking elven gods. I've spoken my piece on Karag Nar.
I think now is the best time for the powerstone AV. It's examining existing properties rather than finding a new use for the substance, so we can lean on our towers and book yet still get a desirable result. Tongs as well, because that has been a subject of much debate. Shadow binding may look controversial, but between the Grey and White towers we actually have a decent bonus to it, and we can interact with non-Collegiate people without them thinking we're possessed. Horstmann I don't particularity like or despise, but Inspiration is a stupidly useful spell, and he has a research trio under him.
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- Location
- Canada
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I'm definitely on board with this plan. Also Redshirt, if I might suggest a write-in, why don't we make sure the library has a dragon-sized entrance/reading room? If Cython can use the library, then they'll almost certainly be protective of it. They're a scholar, after all, and just think of all those books on comparative religions marching to them with no work required! We could even offer them a staff position, and working with the dwarves on the library can only foster good relations.
Further, given how beneficial such a library will be to the world, it's sure to attract Demonic fuckery sooner or later. Who better to counter that than a pissed-off Emperor Hysh dragon?
Technically yes, but we're talking about winch and pulley systems. You'd be trading tired legs for tired arms. The main Dwarven ones work by making sure everything going up is matched by an equal weight going down as much as possible and having a team on a capstan the rest of the time, which is the sort of thing that needs careful organization and scheduling.
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pucflek
Verified simpleton
- Location
- Czech Republic
I am not sure i would want the depths of Lhune that open to dragons. We like them, but lets not forget that Dragons and Dwarfs have ever been bitter enemies and there were tremendous casualties wrought by each on the other side. I like Cython, yes. But i do not really trust him enough to try to convince dwarves to build in something that is bound to be weakness for him.
I would like to remind you that he would happily let the Karak fall as long as whatever force was invading wasn't about to bother him. He is an acquitance with friendly disposition, not an ally, not in this sense.
I would like to remind you that he would happily let the Karak fall as long as whatever force was invading wasn't about to bother him. He is an acquitance with friendly disposition, not an ally, not in this sense.
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ConfusedCanuck
Where did it all go wrong?
- Location
- Neverland
When I saw we could challenge Dragomas for the Supreme Matriarch position I smiled like a loon. But then reality hit me since we are no were ready for that since we would need a lot more battle grade magics to even think of trying it. In a few years sure now not a good idea.
- Location
- Earth
My main concern with putting the Library right below Cython's lair is that they seem to be the type to enjoy peace and quiet, and increasing traffic to that area seems detrimental to that goal. On the other hand, 'Quiet in the Library' gains a new meaning when it's backed up by a sleeping dragon...
In theory all we have to do is somehow disrupt the spell that turns him into a dragon as he's casting it, and then strike before he can throw any other kind of top level Amber battle magic at us and hope that's enough to incapacitate him. Easy peasy.
pucflek
Verified simpleton
- Location
- Czech Republic
Indeed. I am sure none of the other challengers ever thought of that
ConfusedCanuck
Where did it all go wrong?
- Location
- Neverland
Easier said then done I'm afraid, and I doubt Dragomas is a fool so he'll probably be prepared for someone trying that.
- Location
- Canada
I have a prediction: If we haven't hired him within the next year or so, he'll use whatever influence he has to force his name to come up for Lord Magister promotion, hoping to get from under Alric's thumb.
He'll succeed, and then because they send the form letter to every newly minted Lord Magister, he'll become Governor-General of Swamp Town.
What's not to love? It's a position of near-absolute authority, months of travel from the borders and laws of the Empire, managing a town constantly plagued by disease, unrest, and raids by Chaos factions. And it's very, very far away from Alric. A loyal and upstanding Light Wizard like our buddy Egrimm should have no trouble leading the place in a bold and exciting new direction.
- Location
- New Brunswick, NJ
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Thing I just realized courtesy of searching through Boney posts for everything we know about the Lhune depths: they are the source of the Waaaghshrooms we've been researching.
- Location
- Netherlands
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I favor either Kvinn-Wyr or near Karag Nar entrance as a location for the library. High accessibility is important to me, I love Cython but don't want to build an entire library under them, and the Lhune Depths are a gamble I'm not willing to take(no matter how much i love the idea of spider librarians).
Whether Kvinn-Wyr or Karag Nar is appropriate depends on how concerned you are about space... Karag Nar isn't going to be tight on space anytime soon, but I don't expect the library to be done expanding anytime soon either. I'll have to spend some more time mulling them over.
I'm not too into the idea of spending an action on the Lhune Depths at the moment: I get the idea of leaving off our job on the best possible note, but... there's so much cool shit to do. Though I suppose it'd help us get a favorable relationship with the next Loremaster, which might be very relevant?
Definitely in favor of getting Max and Johann into WEBMAT, and definitely in favor of recruiting Horstmann. I want to fold someone from the Duckling Club into WEBMAT as well, and I'm leaning towards Adela.
For research actions, the one I most favor is Ulgu Tongs, because that seems like it has the biggest need for us specifically. Not a lot of people with the kind of unique talents required to try and make that work. I feel like a lot of the AV options are better done once WEBMAT is operational. The AV option that sticks out to me as maybe being appropriate this turn is the expose-to-divine-magic option, because it might take a while before we get cooperative Divine Magic users in the WEB-MAT, and I would like to continue our divine magic research tree sooner rather than later.
I think the biggest sticking issue for me in Plan Redshirt v2 is the library location. Everything else in that vote I either agree with or feel I could be convinced of.
Whether Kvinn-Wyr or Karag Nar is appropriate depends on how concerned you are about space... Karag Nar isn't going to be tight on space anytime soon, but I don't expect the library to be done expanding anytime soon either. I'll have to spend some more time mulling them over.
I'm not too into the idea of spending an action on the Lhune Depths at the moment: I get the idea of leaving off our job on the best possible note, but... there's so much cool shit to do. Though I suppose it'd help us get a favorable relationship with the next Loremaster, which might be very relevant?
Definitely in favor of getting Max and Johann into WEBMAT, and definitely in favor of recruiting Horstmann. I want to fold someone from the Duckling Club into WEBMAT as well, and I'm leaning towards Adela.
For research actions, the one I most favor is Ulgu Tongs, because that seems like it has the biggest need for us specifically. Not a lot of people with the kind of unique talents required to try and make that work. I feel like a lot of the AV options are better done once WEBMAT is operational. The AV option that sticks out to me as maybe being appropriate this turn is the expose-to-divine-magic option, because it might take a while before we get cooperative Divine Magic users in the WEB-MAT, and I would like to continue our divine magic research tree sooner rather than later.
I think the biggest sticking issue for me in Plan Redshirt v2 is the library location. Everything else in that vote I either agree with or feel I could be convinced of.
- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
@BoneyM Is the Library Location vote part of the plan? Personally I'd rather it isn't. It's not really in any way related to anything we can spend AP on right now.
Magnetoreception sounds more like a than b (though many metals aren't even magnetic). Like, what does it mean to perceive Aqshy through magnetoreception and how does it "magnetically" feel different from Ghur?
Also, magnetoreception as a medium to read Chamon infused ink doesn't sound in any way easier or more accurate than using visual-based Windsight in order to perceive and d useecipher letters infused with something that carries natural Chamon (or any other Wind).
Could it be that, regardless of whether Johann's Windsense is magnetoreception-based, he also is highly Chamon-soecialized, being able to sense the slightest differences in concentration of all the various Chamon-carrying substances?
Because otherwise, magnetoreception or not, Johann should be just as capable of reading texts written in living algae or feral animal blood or projected by light or carefully burned into paper.
Isn't Windsight separated into a) what you perceive and b) how you perceive it?
Magnetoreception sounds more like a than b (though many metals aren't even magnetic). Like, what does it mean to perceive Aqshy through magnetoreception and how does it "magnetically" feel different from Ghur?
Also, magnetoreception as a medium to read Chamon infused ink doesn't sound in any way easier or more accurate than using visual-based Windsight in order to perceive and d useecipher letters infused with something that carries natural Chamon (or any other Wind).
Could it be that, regardless of whether Johann's Windsense is magnetoreception-based, he also is highly Chamon-soecialized, being able to sense the slightest differences in concentration of all the various Chamon-carrying substances?
Because otherwise, magnetoreception or not, Johann should be just as capable of reading texts written in living algae or feral animal blood or projected by light or carefully burned into paper.
Engineer-enchanter who already started training powerstone creation before making Magister, with connections to the local Gunnery School and a large family to back her up.
Counterweight elevators are not a thing yet then. I'd have expected Dwarves with all that tech and vertical living to have thought of it by now.
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Draft on Book Access restrictions:
Level 1: 'Open Access': books/papers/documents in this section are of public knowledge, well known and mass printed or are constered to contain knowledge that is a public good. this part of the library is open to all visitors A) willing pay a fee B) have an in-date letter of good standing from a reputable organization, guild, cult or national government in good standing (including The Library of Kron-Azril-Ungol)* or C) are a local who has completed the personal location and background check and licence** (Library card)
* said group will be liable for any damages/thefts.
**This included giving the library the right to turn your home upside down if you are the last person seen with one of the very expensive books if it goes missing.
Level 2 restricted access: Any books that have been claimed and confirmed to have guild/cult/organization/national secrets or are books that are rare, limited and expensive. this part of the library is open to all visitors A) that can prove that they are a member of the said guild, cult*** or organization B) have an in-date letter of permission from said reputable organization, guild or cult or C) are given permission from a member of the staff of The Library of Kron-Azril-Ungol in regards to the non-guild books.
*** this is restricted to the recognised priests, knights, scholars, or other institutional members of the cults: this does not include lay members. who will need an in-date letter of permission from said reputable Cult.
Level 3 Heavy restricted: any material that could be used for ill such as books on magic, on topics of a sensitive nature such as the dark powers, or contain deeply vital guild/cult/organization/national secrets. this part of the library is open to all visitors A) can prove that the information is directly relevant to the carrying out of their duties (for example a licenced witchhunter will be allowed to look up general information on chaos, vampire Skaven etc etc. B) explicit permission from a ranking member of a guild/cult/organization of good standing. C) reviewed and granted permission by a senior member of the staff.
Level 4: Forbidden from general viewing: books/papers/documents that contain information that could be of real danger in the wrong hands, explicitly on evil/forbidden/dangerous magic's, or of an incredibly sensitive nature. for access, an individual must be reviewed by the head librarian or stand in if not available. the reason for viewing must be explained in full. confirmation from a high ranking member of your guild/cult/organization/nation will be preferred, but will not guarantee access.****
**** the direct word of the King/Queen of K8Ps can override any decision on allowing or disallowing access to this level.
Level 5: there is no level 5.
Level 1: 'Open Access': books/papers/documents in this section are of public knowledge, well known and mass printed or are constered to contain knowledge that is a public good. this part of the library is open to all visitors A) willing pay a fee B) have an in-date letter of good standing from a reputable organization, guild, cult or national government in good standing (including The Library of Kron-Azril-Ungol)* or C) are a local who has completed the personal location and background check and licence** (Library card)
* said group will be liable for any damages/thefts.
**This included giving the library the right to turn your home upside down if you are the last person seen with one of the very expensive books if it goes missing.
Level 2 restricted access: Any books that have been claimed and confirmed to have guild/cult/organization/national secrets or are books that are rare, limited and expensive. this part of the library is open to all visitors A) that can prove that they are a member of the said guild, cult*** or organization B) have an in-date letter of permission from said reputable organization, guild or cult or C) are given permission from a member of the staff of The Library of Kron-Azril-Ungol in regards to the non-guild books.
*** this is restricted to the recognised priests, knights, scholars, or other institutional members of the cults: this does not include lay members. who will need an in-date letter of permission from said reputable Cult.
Level 3 Heavy restricted: any material that could be used for ill such as books on magic, on topics of a sensitive nature such as the dark powers, or contain deeply vital guild/cult/organization/national secrets. this part of the library is open to all visitors A) can prove that the information is directly relevant to the carrying out of their duties (for example a licenced witchhunter will be allowed to look up general information on chaos, vampire Skaven etc etc. B) explicit permission from a ranking member of a guild/cult/organization of good standing. C) reviewed and granted permission by a senior member of the staff.
Level 4: Forbidden from general viewing: books/papers/documents that contain information that could be of real danger in the wrong hands, explicitly on evil/forbidden/dangerous magic's, or of an incredibly sensitive nature. for access, an individual must be reviewed by the head librarian or stand in if not available. the reason for viewing must be explained in full. confirmation from a high ranking member of your guild/cult/organization/nation will be preferred, but will not guarantee access.****
**** the direct word of the King/Queen of K8Ps can override any decision on allowing or disallowing access to this level.
Level 5: there is no level 5.