Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[FriedIce]

They learned that if they see veins of silver or gold in the trees, they will find the same if they dig down."

You watch as a second wisp of Ulgu is greedily drunk by the tree. "They're natural Waystones."

"Yes, for a certain definition of 'natural'. Tributaries to the leyline-streams.

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Setting aside the obvious bribe of access to B O O K for what it is, I just want to appreciate how artfully this was pitched. In the course of a single conversation with us she has redefined the entire Nordland saga into something where there's a very compelling argument that the Colleges are not only allowed, but required, to back the Eonir under Article 15.

The narrative has gone from 'Middenland helps potentially co-religionist Elves murder human Nordlander settlers' to 'Elves and Middenland kill Chaos puppets who were destroying Waystones.' After all, only Chaos benefits from people destroying functioning Waystones.

This is what top-tier diplomacy looks like.

 

[flogoyog]

I'm feeling a little frustrated by some of the arguments here. Yes, the elves are probably upselling the benefits and understating the difficulties, since that's how, uh, diplomacy works, but there's an awful lot of motivated reasoning going on here about how the offer is too good to be true and must be some kind of sinister trap.

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I get that but we dont even have mathy's opinion of Vicereine Cadaeth in the Dramatis Personae, when diplomacy is important we could get a feel for other people in some way.
Here the lack of opinion from mathilde is kinda scary, our interlocuter is probably some kind of forest spirit with skills at illusions (pocket dimension soul), that she is not asking herself if she is talking to a telepath when the library was mentionned is a warning sign to me.
Remenber how paranoid mathilde got about Johann at the beginning ? That this character does not get the grey wizard paranoia in any of her descriptions is shoking. The worst she got was :

Sitting in a low tree fork and smiling mischievously at the hummingbird investigating the flower in her hair is an Elf, and you very quickly have some uncharitable ideas as to how this unorthodox alliance might have been possible

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So this maybe elf is super sexy and magically does not trigger grey paranioa after a close call with the chaos cup and daemonette double whammy ?

She is probably just really good at her job but the lack of raction from mathilde fells like a departure in how tense diplomacy has been approched before (early johann, Cython, Qrech, first meet with Heidi).

I am trying to cover our bases here not to convince voters of a dark and sinister plot, the library bassically sold me here Carcassone would need direct interest and backing from the fey enchantress or the lady for me to vote for them.

 

[Quest]

Are we really arguing that letting Chaos continue to corrupt Waystones is better than letting elves run them?

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Damn elgi. *shakes armored fist*

 

[pucflek]

No, the best case scenario is that the Elector Count comes out with a decree stating that anyone trespassing in Laurelorn, or who deliberately harms their trees, will be declared lawless. Thus allowing the elves to shoot anyone dumb enough to venture in there on sight with little to no chance of angry mobs burning down forests.

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Do you want to bet that in the 2500 years of Laurelorn/Human relations, there was at least one Elector that did that and then the same circus of "Wise ruler dies, the treaties age and eventually its forgotten and Empire pokes Laurelorn with sword again" that repeats like every 300 years and is the reason why Eonir are so fucking tired of this shit.

 

[das_slash]

Well, the forest lady made a compelling offer, in fact i'm probably going with Laurelorn because we have such a nice rapport with the dwarfs that getting runelords to go there should be an order of magnitude easier than getting elves to go to K8P.

Also we should probably inform the Emperor/colleges than the fall of Drakwald was likely a direct consequence of their logging efforts, and that we need to take measures to prevent Nordland from going the same way.

 

[Woltaire]

Well, the forest lady made a compelling offer, in fact i'm probably going with Laurelorn because we have such a nice rapport with the dwarfs that getting runelords to go there should be an order of magnitude easier than getting elves to go to K8P.

Also we should probably inform the Emperor/colleges than the fall of Drakwald was likely a direct consequence of their logging efforts, and that we need to take measures to prevent Nordland from going the same way.

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the elves are going to come with us where ever we choose to go

 

[Asheram]

Do you want to bet that in the 2500 years of Laurelorn/Human relations, there was at least one Elector that did that and then the same circus of "Wise ruler dies, the treaties age and eventually its forgotten and Empire pokes Laurelorn with sword again" that repeats like every 300 years and is the reason why Eonir are so fucking tired of this shit.

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Considering that there's a small change as of late called "The Colleges of Magic"? Yes. I think that if they go out and have word with folk then this might actually stick.

 

[DragonParadox]

I get that but we dont even have mathy's opinion of Vicereine Cadaeth in the Dramatis Personae, when diplomacy is important we could get a feel for other people in some way.
Here the lack of opinion from mathilde is kinda scary, our interlocuter is probably some kind of forest spirit with skills at illusions (pocket dimension soul), that she is not asking herself if she is talking to a telepath when the library was mentionned is a warning sign to me.
Remenber how paranoid mathilde got about Johann at the beginning ? That this character does not get the grey wizard paranoia in any of her descriptions is shoking. The worst she got was :

So this maybe elf is super sexy and magically does not trigger grey paranioa after a close call with the chaos cup and daemonette double whammy ?

She is probably just really good at her job but the lack of raction from mathilde fells like a departure in how tense diplomacy has been approched before (early johann, Cython, Qrech, first meet with Heidi).

I am trying to cover our bases here not to convince voters of a dark and sinister plot, the library bassically sold me here Carcassone would need direct interest and backing from the fey enchantress or the lady for me to vote for them.

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We are the Grey Paranoia and a segment of the thread seems to be managing it fine by imagining all sorts of issues. I say this as someone who has and is currently GM-ing quests, if you write in suspicion of a character into an option where the players can choose the safe and familiar path the vast majority of the time you might as well not have written the option because a plot of players take IC concerns or suspicions as word of god that is 100% reliable rather than trying to analyze why the PoV character might be wrong.

 

[Absoloot]

If anything, the frequency with which people misinterpret how a given vote works even when it's spelled out in the author's notes should inspire anyone to skepticism about the prevalence of active reading.

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That's gotta be the most polite thread burn I've ever read.

"The best argument against Democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter." - falsely attributed Churchill, unknown source.

I hope (predict or maybe expect?) Boney to depict Mathilde's internal musings on the politics of an Eonir choice for sure. Those are fun anyway, as Boney is much better at that kind of articulation than I am.

 

[Lightwhispers]

(My other cause is puns. Has it occurred to anyone how viable Praag is for that noble endeavor? A Praagtical Guide To Waystones!)

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Are you suggesting that the Kislev location is the most Praagmatic one? Because I believe that Laurelorn positively blossoms with puntential. There are deep roots of wordplay, which would likely ashtound the casual reader.

...I'm not sorry.

 

[Copperscale]

Downsides to Laurelorn:
- Nordland
- Commute
- Hard to get Runesmith buy In

Not much that needs explaining, methinks.

 

[K von Carstein]

...I'm not sorry.

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You shouldn't be😉

 

[Shard]

I doubt we could get Kragg either way due to B O K, Thorek seems like the Runesmith we have the best odds of convincing to help us.

 

[Jyn Ryvia]

I always thought that people supposedly having an irrational distaste for elves was a meme, but now I'm reconsidering...

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Sadly, It's fact that gets blown up into a meme, but still a thing.

now to be fair: sexy elf is a little sus compared to Bro-king, but that's because bro-king is a good friend and sexy elf is a politician.

not because one is a dwarf and the other is an elf(?).

but SV has been pavlovened into assuming that the dwarfs view is right. I think largely because they are the most tech-y faction thats not evil and this site is at its core for space nerds, combined with them having simple social rules compared to the very complexed dip of the elfs: self-reflection, a large part of the user base of this site probably doesn't have the best DIP themselves, and don't like dealing with socially complex problems. the dwarfs 'grudge or reparations' mindset is very comforting in that. while the elfs more flighty passions are harder to deal with.

and the elephant in the room: the Elder of 40k are fuckers and people can't help but paint them on their fantasy counterparts.

 

[das_slash]

the elves are going to come with us where ever we choose to go

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I meant their loremasters/grey lords? but i forgot the name and then didnt go back to edit it in.
My b.

 

[lancelot]

"The other complicating factor would be Waystones themselves. I'd ask that you not try to experiment with the Karags, and I don't know where the next nearest ones would be, whether you might be able to find some in the Badlands or the Border Princes or might have to travel all the way to the Empire. You'd have access to the Gyrocarriages for that, of course, but that seems like it would still present an inconvenience."

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This is likely the best reason to set up in the Boarder Princes. In the end no one is going to want us fucking with the Way Stones right in the middle of their territory. Set up there and we can get Barr to help us as a city would almost have to be built around us to support the people and resources needed to examine and later experiment on the Waystone. As a plus the more South a Waystone is the less magic running through it, and the less horrible the consequences will be if something goes wrong.

If we do this right we could kill a half dozen birds with one stone.

 

[picklepikkl]

That's gotta be the most polite thread burn I've ever read.

"The best argument against Democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter." - falsely attributed Churchill, unknown source.

Must voters don't binge a whole Arc, then read hundreds of pages of discussion to be informed about a major vote, granted. I hope (predict or maybe expect?) Boney to depict Mathilde's internal musings on the politics of an Eonir choice for sure. Those are fun anyway, as Boney is much better at that kind of articulation than I am.

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I'm trying to be realistic. I'm not in the least advocating for "your investment must be this high to participate" -- a catchphrase of mine is "increase democracy you cowards" -- but I think it is important for a high-impact high-visibility vote to be as legible as possible. Empirically: if we regularly witness failures of reading comprehension for things that are stated straightforwardly in plain language, we will have more failures if things are left in subtext and require thought and care to pull them out. This is a feature, not a bug, in many cases -- if you want your questers to puzzle out a mystery, like with Mhonar or the Nordland refugees or Dum, then awesome. But for these sorts of votes that determine the entire shape of our upcoming many turns, I really would like to see Mathilde's internal monologue lay it out so that everyone can get the benefit of Mathilde's analysis, not just the high-effort questers who can hash it out independently. Lowering the wall, as it were.

I meant their loremasters/grey lords? but i forgot the name and then didnt go back to edit it in.
My b.

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Sure, but as I said before:

Laurelorn will play ball and send their people wherever we base the project, because it was their idea to begin with and they want in. But runesmith buy-in is not guaranteed; this is kind of reversed from how people speculated it might be, where we'd have enough dwarf rep that dwarf involvement was a lock and the Eonir might require cajoling.

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Algard is expecting the dwarf side of the collaboration to fail because, well, dwarves. I don't think we should take them for granted if we really want runesmiths. So part of what we should be thinking is "do we want a good chance at runesmiths and settle for standard elf contributions, or do we want the top-shelf elf contributions and take a higher risk of no runesmiths?"

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EDIT: Turns out I'm wrong!

This is likely the best reason to set up in the Boarder Princes. In the end no one is going to want us fucking with the Way Stones right in the middle of their territory. Set up there and we can get Barr to help us as a city would almost have to be built around us to support the people and resources needed to examine and later experiment on the Waystone. As a plus the more South a Waystone is the less magic running through it, and the less horrible the consequences will be if something goes wrong.

If we do this right we could kill a half dozen birds with one stone.

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Border Princes aren't an option anymore.

Anything that does not make the final four cut-off will not be a possibility for the final vote.

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Didn't make the final 4, so it won't be a viable choice in the final vote.

 

[pucflek]

This is likely the best reason to set up in the Boarder Princes. In the end no one is going to want us fucking with the Way Stones right in the middle of their territory. Set up there and we can get Barr to help us as a city would almost have to be built around us to support the people and resources needed to examine and later experiment on the Waystone. As a plus the more South a Waystone is the less magic running through it, and the less horrible the consequences will be if something goes wrong.

If we do this right we could kill a half dozen birds with one stone.

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Even if this gained traction, we cannot. The only options we can vote for are Praag, Carcassone, K8P and Laurelorn. As was stated in previous vote, for all to see.

 

[K von Carstein]

This is likely the best reason to set up in the Boarder Princes. In the end no one is going to want us fucking with the Way Stones right in the middle of their territory. Set up there and we can get Barr to help us as a city would almost have to be built around us to support the people and resources needed to examine and later experiment on the Waystone. As a plus the more South a Waystone is the less magic running through it, and the less horrible the consequences will be if something goes wrong.

If we do this right we could kill a half dozen birds with one stone.

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It's too late for that. The only options that will be available for voting are Grey College, K8P, Laurelorn, Carcassone and Praag.

Edit: the border princes are much less safer than most of the other options anyway, with the risk of Waaagh and bandits. And building a city just for that would be incredibly costly, and I don't think anyone would want to pay.

 

[primemountain]

Are we really arguing that letting Chaos continue to corrupt Waystones is better than letting elves run them?

I always thought that people supposedly having an irrational distaste for elves was a meme, but now I'm reconsidering...

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Don't be daft. You know what will happen. Everyone can see it coming from a mile away. It's the same question that happens with the damn silver and wood, what do you think "Magic Super site-weapon" will do to it? It's the reason why Waystone knowledge is kept secret.

The question being asked, and some fool will ask it, every time, for Greed, for Intrigue, or just the stir the pot from outside, is the obvious one:
"But see, we fixed these here Waystones, why should the Elves get to keep them? They're our Waystones! And if you argue otherwise, you're a traitor to the Empire, Sigmar, or have been bewitched by the Elves! FOR THE EMPIRE!"

I'm sure negotiating that is possible. And except if the Eonir try to assassinate all participants, the know-how will be spread to the Dwarfs and Empire.

Your idea of Elves trying to invade the Empire looks very alarmist. They have a very low population and growth rate, they are unlikely to wish loosing a lot of their people in a war. Even the Asrai, who are even more powerful and aggressive than the Eonir never tried that. And that idea of an Elvish holy war is utterly ridiculous.

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Now see, I don't doubt we'll learn something. I don't doubt we'll learn a lot. But Elves man. From contracts to geas, to just "Each Waystone is a unique artifact and what works for Elven ones may not apply to dwarven ones nearly as well." There are all kinds of ways for there to be hidden hooks and traps when dealing with the Fey. Which is what Warhammer Wood ELves and their allies basically are.

Or to put it differently: Just because we learn stuff doesn't mean we'll leave the forest, us or the dwarves, or even be allowed to enter it in the first place, without strident secrecy Oaths/Geas being laid down. Because Faries. And hell, the Runesmiths would require a similar Oath to even start speaking about such stuff, even if they decided to share it, so why anyone would think that the Elves won't be taking their own precautions against their secrets slipping out is silly.

For dwarves, it would be as simple as making them take an Oath. No assassins required. What does it matter if their knowldge grows if they/we can almost never use it?

As for pop levels, oh yes, Elves have low pop levels. That's why they need the massive rivers of magic. You know who has the numbers? The trees do. We power up a couple of Waystones and suddenly they can give a live rendition of the March of the Ents.

 

[Briefvoice]

Laurelorn will play ball and send their people wherever we base the project, because it was their idea to begin with and they want in. But runesmith buy-in is not guaranteed; this is kind of reversed from how people speculated it might be, where we'd have enough dwarf rep that dwarf involvement was a lock and the Eonir might require cajoling.

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Runelord buy-in is not guaranteed. As Belegar points out, it's likely we can find some kickflip radical runesmiths who are willing to come out and work far from the eyes of their guild. They'll be more flexible, but they also won't be nearly as knowledgeable.

 

[pucflek]

Your idea of Elves trying to invade the Empire looks very alarmist. They have a very low population and growth rate, they are unlikely to wish loosing a lot of their people in a war. Even the Asrai, who are even more powerful and aggressive than the Eonir never tried that. And that idea of an Elvish holy war is utterly ridiculous.

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They could double their territory and still probably not reach the borders they originally hammered out with the first counts they made a deal with. Humans are really not in the right for this one.

 

[Angelform]

We would lose out on Runelord support, maybe (but i think we could attempt to petition Thorgrim himself via Belegar) because unlike the elves, i don't think Kragg will be so eager to let bygones be bygones

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I doubt it will be a problem. Even Kragg is far younger than the War Of Vengeance and by all indications the Dwarfs have had no contact with Laurelorn at all since they declared independence.

Kragg will be against elves in general… but he was also against Wizards is general. And indeed against manlings in general. Yet despite his disapproval he has grown comfortable with Mathilde. He is not incapable of change.

There is also these bits of characterisation:

Somewhere, someone is having a quiet word with Kragg the Grim; he's ranking his level of disapproval and finding that he disapproves of the Dwarven Empire being in your debt more than he does crafting an item for a manling.

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"World keeps on changing. It's about bloody time it changed for the better. Zhufbar, Kadrin, Varr, Azul. Norn, Hirn, Izor. And Everpeak. Ever since we lost Dum and Vlag, only eight standing Karaks worthy of being called a Karak in the whole damn Karaz Ankor. Now, once more, there's nine." He scowls in the direction of Karagril. "I'll die choking on my own blood before I let it be eight again."

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Kragg's overriding goal is the preservation of the Karaz Ankor. And he is willing to do things he disapproves of to settle a debt.

Now consider this: How much of a debt is Mathilde owed?
She was critical to the reclamation of Eight Peaks.
She rescued Vlag and its tens of thousands of Dwarfs practically single handed.
She solved (to Dwarf satisfaction) the mystery of Dum.
She saved the core of Everpeak's master artisans at Skull River.

I think that no matter where the Projects is based if Mathilde calls for his aid then Kragg will answer. He would come with epic grumbling and a nigh-physical aura of disapproval but he would come.

 

[picklepikkl]

Runelord buy-in is not guaranteed. As Belegar points out, it's likely we can find some kickflip radical runesmiths who are willing to come out and work far from the eyes of their guild. They'll be more flexible, but they also won't be nearly as knowledgeable.

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I don't think that's justified by the text.

The complicated part is the Runesmiths. Operating out of Karak Eight Peaks would mean you'll have easy access to Kragg and Thorek if you can convince them to get involved, as well as making it easier to recruit any other Runesmiths you think might be able to contribute. The Cult of Thungni is very leery about outsiders getting their hands on their secrets, and being under Dwarven authority would make them more comfortable with the situation and might help sway any that are unsure.

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Belegar never says it's likely to find runesmiths willing to come out and work far from the eyes of their guild. He says that being under Dwarven authority would make it easier to recruit runesmiths because the Cult of Thungni would breathe easier. I think the plain reading of this is "if the project isn't under dwarf authority, the Cult of Thungni might decide it's not worth the risk and none of their members get involved." The Runelord/Runesmith distinction you draw doesn't appear at all.

EDIT: Turns out I misread it!

 

[Redshirt Army]

Now see, I don't doubt we'll learn something. I don't doubt we'll learn a lot. But Elves man. From contracts to geas, to just "Each Waystone is a unique artifact and what works for Elven ones may not apply to dwarven ones nearly as well." There are all kinds of ways for there to be hidden hooks and traps when dealing with the Fey. Which is what Warhammer Wood ELves and their allies basically are.

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Okay, there's a lot to unpack here, but I'm just going to throw away the whole box: No, the Eonir are not the Unseelie Court. That's the Asrai.

Or to put it differently: Just because we learn stuff doesn't mean we'll leave the forest, us or the dwarves, or even be allowed to enter it in the first place, without strident secrecy Oaths/Geas being laid down. Because Faries. And hell, the Runesmiths would require a similar Oath to even start speaking about such stuff, even if they decided to share it, so why anyone would think that the Elves won't be taking their own precautions against their secrets slipping out is silly.

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Can you show a single canonical example of the Eonir in Warhammer laying down a geas on someone? And "just because we learn stuff doesn't mean we'll leave the forest" is pure fearmongering.