Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

Alratan · Mar 16, 2021

Deathbybunnies said:
I still think that the main gap we have in orthodox Inperial Wizardry that would be relevant to understanding Waystones is going to be Rituals, not Enchantment.

Rituals: used for big, permanent effects, or the Really Big Magics.

Waystones: the biggest magical artefacts around, with similarly huge effects, which we've already seen Mathilde use a Ritual to interact with.

I've been wanting to take the College's Rituals class for a while now, so I'm pretty pleased that we're going to have to take it to do our chosen job properly.

Waystones are giant magic items though. Enchantment is what we've seen used to make the other giant magic items we've seen. Our doom tower wasn't made with a ritual, for example.

Now, I think that rituals are worth learning as a way of using the energy of the Waystone network, so we should pick it up, but I don't think it will make a huge difference.

Valmond · Mar 16, 2021

Waystones are a bit beyond usual enchanted items, i would not be surprised if rituals were a component, or if rituals could not be made a component, in their construction or use.

veekie · Mar 16, 2021

BurnNote said:
Why would we lose access to the Gyrocopter network? The dwarfs kind of like Mathilde. Just a little. More than anyone except Sigmar. They literally think she's inhumanly awesome. I seriously don't see where the concern we'd ever lose access is coming from, even as a private person.

That aside, we won't be a private person. We might not be working for dwarfs, we would definitly be working with them. So fuel cost and such, if it even comes up, can be booked out of that. Or she could just pay for it, and actually make direct and practical use of the huge amount of cash she keeps getting from the trading company she owns a good chunk of.

We already have free rides for life to anywhere on the network. What we lose is just free, on demand flights at any time, to anywhere.

Which we shouldn't need that often and certainly not on the job unless we need to scramble vs exploding waystone miles away.

Darth. · Mar 16, 2021

Tasoli said:
We got 2 Monitor Galleys as they are apparently called. I was saying We should get more.

I've already brought up the idea of building more military ships - specifically to do double duty of getting paid by a dwarfhold/the empire as riverine mercenaries for hire to keep pirates away which has the side benefit of also protecting our own ships and getting paid to do it. And then eventually possibly looking into getting wartime contracts/retainers.

However Boney pointed out that currently all shipyards (not just ours) are busy building trade ships and if we build monitor ships instead, that's more high margin trade market share we're giving up for low margin mercenary work.

The EIC should wait until the trade boom starts to ease off as piracy rises and then start to build some military ships along with the trade ships for itself/to possibly contract out. Or honestly just pay to have the K8P shipyard expanded (Stirland has no skilled workers left unemployed rn most likely) and maintain sole use over the expanded part for now - later you could rent out some of the berths/slips and recover whole or part of the investment, or just expand into the shipbuilding business, or both.

Honestly if this was EIC Quest, I'd be enjoying it just as much. I love building trade empires.

Deathbybunnies · Mar 16, 2021

Alratan said:
Waystones are giant magic items though. Enchantment is what we've seen used to make the other giant magic items we've seen. Our doom tower wasn't made with a ritual, for example.

No, but the Eye of Gazul is several enchantments tied together with Runecraft to manipulate what burning shadows considers a single shadow, supercharged by literal divine intervention. It works, but Rituals are the established way of doing the Really Big Magic.

We made our superweapon with Enchantment because it's what we know, and had a specific idea in mind to make it work. The old Elves would not be similarly lacking in knowledge of Rituals, and would be capable of choosing the right tools for the job - in this case, a blend of both.

Also, we've seen Mathilde use a Ritual without really understanding it to make that blockage:

BoneyM said:
You place your hands upon it and recall the lessons you were taught of the ways the Colleges know to interact with them, and speak unfamiliar phrases while you form a construct you do not understand in your mind to funnel Ulgu into.

BurnNote · Mar 16, 2021

veekie said:
We already have free rides for life to anywhere on the network. What we lose is just free, on demand flights at any time, to anywhere.

Which we shouldn't need that often and certainly not on the job unless we need to scramble vs exploding waystone miles away.

I think they'd oblige if she goes "I need to do Mathilde things at that place". Both because Mathilde doing things has historically worked out very well for the dwarfs, and because it means she doing things somewhere that is not here.

And that's not even mentioning that Mathilde also has a second really fast travel option.

Frankly, the whole discussion about Gyrocopters seems pointless on multiple levels. If it ever becomes relevant, it will be under very specific circumstances, and there's no point talking until we've reached them and actually know what they are.

SuperSonicSound · Mar 16, 2021

Alratan said:
Waystones are giant magic items though. Enchantment is what we've seen used to make the other giant magic items we've seen. Our doom tower wasn't made with a ritual, for example.

Now, I think that rituals are worth learning as a way of using the energy of the Waystone network, so we should pick it up, but I don't think it will make a huge difference.

Ritual magic seems to be one of the ways that humans overcome the usual limitations of their wind locked paradigm see impossible march of the damned for an example ritual that has no specific wind requirement and allow multiple wizards of different wind to work in tandem.

That said in the 2e rpg ritual magic is used for permanent enchanting, where as in DL it appears to have been partitioned into its own separate field, perhaps waystones are the point where you need to be able to enchant using ritual scale magic and so you're both correct.

Mathilde would need to be able to enchant up to ritual grade levels of magic and would need to learn how to actually use ritual magic.

veekie · Mar 16, 2021

BurnNote said:
I think they'd oblige if she goes "I need to do Mathilde things at that place". Both because Mathilde doing things has historically worked out very well for the dwarfs, and because it means she doing things somewhere that is not here.

And that's not even mentioning that Mathilde also has a second really fast travel option.

Frankly, the whole discussion about Gyrocopters seems pointless on multiple levels. If it ever becomes relevant, it will be under very specific circumstances, and there's no point talking until we've reached them and actually know what they are.

Yeah its the difference between running down there, yelling for a priority flight and getting it, or running down there and talking to the guy in charge to free up a flight.

Largely irrelevant

consequences · Mar 16, 2021

picklepikkl said:
"Whichever one allows us to represent our employer best."

Seriously, folks, this is a very silly discussion to have. We don't know that we're losing access to the Karaz Ankor Aircorps -- two of the plausible candidates to be employing us for the project are dwarf kings! We know, by word of QM, that we're going to be voting on who we'll be doing Waystones officially "for." Hashing out the details of what flying transportation we might need before we even know if we need new flying transportation is... it's like the inverse of the tendency the thread has to start planning out the lives of chickens before we even know if we have any eggs. It's planning what brand of anti-fox fence to buy before we even know if the henhouse has any predators nearby.

Hey, I don't tell you how to know all the things, don't tell me how to unsubtley sidle up to (misre)presenting the absolute necessity of acquiring a mammoth to act as a modular mobile helipad and flying beast hangar.

Darth. · Mar 16, 2021

consequences said:
Hey, I don't tell you how to know all the things, don't tell me how to unsubtley sidle up to (misre)presenting the absolute necessity of acquiring a mammoth to act as a modular mobile helipad and flying beast hangar.

If we acquired an undead mammoth we could outfit the interior of a small traveling carriage in its ribcage or use it for cargo. Clearly the utility of necromancy is underestimated.

Chopak · Mar 16, 2021

inspired by recent discussion about new avatar and Weber coat of arms, I quickly put my own version in banner designer for Bannerlord link.

editor code:
11.116.116.1595.1386.765.776.1.0.0.510.140.140.1187.573.765.779.1.1.129.155.2.143.568.238.744.1031.1.0.0.215.145.145.106.116.664.975.1.0.148.301.150.116.312.726.838.711.1.1.145.301.150.116.312.726.1306.1188.1.1.145

Alratan · Mar 16, 2021

Picking up something that was discussed earlier, about elves and dwarves working together, there are a few recent example.

Twenty years before the Great War on Chaos, the Seaguard of Lothern and Barak Varr allied in a successful joint campaign to secure the shores of the Black Gulf from the Greenskins. Their was plenty of unintended insults from both sides along the way, but it's a useful example.

Jyn Ryvia · Mar 16, 2021

Chopak said:
inspired by recent discussion about new avatar and Weber coat of arms, I quickly put my own version in banner designer for Bannerlord link.

editor code:
11.116.116.1595.1386.765.776.1.0.0.510.140.140.1187.573.765.779.1.1.129.155.2.143.568.238.744.1031.1.0.0.215.145.145.106.116.664.975.1.0.148.301.150.116.312.726.838.711.1.1.145.301.150.116.312.726.1306.1188.1.1.145

this is great: would work really well for this arcs banner!

Tasoli · Mar 16, 2021

I always felt sneake was a bit goofy and juvinile. I mean makese sens since Mathilde was young but still.

ReImagined · Mar 16, 2021

BurnNote said:
Why would we lose access to the Gyrocopter network? The dwarfs kind of like Mathilde. Just a little. More than anyone except Sigmar. They literally think she's inhumanly awesome. I seriously don't see where the concern we'd ever lose access is coming from, even as a private person.

That aside, we won't be a private person. We might not be working for dwarfs, we would definitly be working with them. So fuel cost and such, if it even comes up, can be booked out of that. Or she could just pay for it, and actually make direct and practical use of the huge amount of cash she keeps getting from the trading company she owns a good chunk of.

Access, no, of course not. Free access, possibly, depending on how recovering Vlag and Eight Peaks changes the calculus and if we're still sponsored by them.

From the Collection of Important Information, under Dwarf Rep:

BoneyM said:
And how much for a helicopter ride?
If you just mean a joyride, you can get it from your rep. If you want a flying taxi, a point for anywhere in the general area, two for anywhere friendly in the Old World.

We currently get free gyro rides as a perk of being a Loremaster going about doing Loremaster things.

storryeater · Mar 16, 2021

Tasoli said:
I always felt sneake was a bit goofy and juvinile. I mean makese sens since Mathilde was young but still.

Yeah, Mathilde's goofy and juneville sense of naming has become a lot more sophisticated since then.

picklepikkl · Mar 16, 2021

ReImagined said:
Access, no, of course not. Free access, possibly, depending on how recovering Vlag and Eight Peaks changes the calculus and if we're still sponsored by them.

From the Collection of Important Information, under Dwarf Rep:

We currently get free gyro rides as a perk of being a Loremaster going about doing Loremaster things.

@veekie claims that we've got free gyro rides for life from our rep, but I've been unable to find the citation for that.

veekie said:
Mathilde has lifetime free gyro rides anyway due to her rep.

Granted, I didn't look very hard, because I can't really be arsed. It's not a bridge we have to cross any time soon. But I think it's pretty likely we'll end up doing Waystones officially for either Karak Eight Peaks or the Karaz Ankor as a whole, so continuing to benefit from the Aircorps would come with that.

ReImagined · Mar 16, 2021

picklepikkl said:
@veekie claims that we've got free gyro rides for life from our rep, but I've been unable to find the citation for that.

Granted, I didn't look very hard, because I can't really be arsed. It's not a bridge we have to cross any time soon. But I think it's pretty likely we'll end up doing Waystones officially for either Karak Eight Peaks or the Karaz Ankor as a whole, so continuing to benefit from the Aircorps would come with that.

My hunch on the citation for what veekie said is that he's using the same quote I am, but overlooked the 'joyrides' bit of that sentence. Of course, our rep has increased massively since then, so that could be outdated.

I agree that it's moot until Boney says it's an issue, I'm mostly just clarifying since it seems like people meant two different things when using the term 'losing free access.' I'm pretty sure the people who brought it up meant losing free access as in price/cost, and the people responding meant losing free access as in availability/freedom.

redj · Mar 16, 2021

Damn, theres been over 200 pages of discussion. Big decisions, big decisions. 🤔

storryeater · Mar 16, 2021

redj said:
Damn, theres been over 200 pages of discussion. Big decisions, big decisions. 🤔

Sadly, vote closed allready.

Jyn Ryvia · Mar 16, 2021

picklepikkl said:
@veekie claims that we've got free gyro rides for life from our rep, but I've been unable to find the citation for that.

Granted, I didn't look very hard, because I can't really be arsed. It's not a bridge we have to cross any time soon. But I think it's pretty likely we'll end up doing Waystones officially for either Karak Eight Peaks or the Karaz Ankor as a whole, so continuing to benefit from the Aircorps would come with that.

I'm also pretty sure its going to be Bro-king unless there is going to be some real juicy advantages doing it under someone else.

or there are some really bad logistical problems doing it in K8Ps, and so somewhere else more central would just be better.

which, admittedly might be the case with K8Ps being at the ass-end of the old world. but they would have to be really, really bad for the thread to not going with Belagrer.

Valmond · Mar 16, 2021

Belegar as an employer would be the obvious choice, decent funding, boss that will listen to us, near Kragg, lot of waystones just there and all of our pre existing stuff.
Add in the great library (if we do it) and research institute (if we do it) as extra benefits for K8P.
Thorgrim could be a dark horse candidate, lot of pull, potential (if unlikely) access to lot of knowledge otherwise unavailable, but we lack the personal connection and Belegar might feel hurt over it.
The elves? No idea what benefits they provide, probably lot, but also feel we don't want to give them too much control over the project, or let them have oversight into our stuff (mainly because we do not want to admit just how little info we have too early).
Empire? Probably the worst of the lot, Runelords won't want to work for them, Elves can't legally work for them, and institutional meddling, and resistance to magic in general, could potentially be very annoying.

Jyn Ryvia · Mar 16, 2021

Again, the only real problem with K8Ps would be logistics.

Very far for groups like the damsels, Cult of Mann and ice witches, so harder to get them to go or to coordinate research in different places. (this would be a pretiuelr concern with ice witches, they think Aldorf is too far away from Kislav magically.)

plus, as this research will be covert to one extent or another. it might be hard to get research minerals down the only road secretly...

but that's it, and I really don't see that outweighing all the advantages of K8Ps (especially if we get the Library and Research centre)

Mopman43 · Mar 16, 2021

Jyn Ryvia said:
Again, the only real problem with K8Ps would be logistics.

Very far for groups like the damsels, Cult of Mann and ice witches, so harder to get them to go or to coordinate research in different places. (this would be a pretiuelr concern with ice witches, they think Aldorf is too far away from Kislav magically.)

plus, as this research will be covert to one extent or another. it might be hard to get research minerals down the only road secretly...

but that's it, and I really don't see that outweighing all the advantages of K8Ps (especially if we get the Library and Research centre)

Why and how would we be getting the Damsels or Cult of Manaan involved in the Waystone project? Like, as it stands the only parties that seem like they'll be involved are the Eonir and Dwarfs.

BurnNote · Mar 16, 2021

Mopman43 said:
Why and how would we be getting the Damsels or Cult of Manaan involved in the Waystone project? Like, as it stands the only parties that seem like they'll be involved are the Eonir and Dwarfs.

Waystones is in large part uniting the knowledge of a lot of different polities. It makes sense to consider or human groups as well.
As for how? The same way we get the dwarfs, or elves or colleges interested. The same logic applies to them as well.

Whether it'll actually turn out that way is another matter, but it's certainly plausible.

Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

Definitely a heretic

Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal

Not A Nice Person At All

Definitely a heretic

Life is for Living

This isn't even my nerdiest form

Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak