Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
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- Fantasy Users' Choice!
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- warhammer warhammer fantasy fantasy be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist pansexual protagonist ck2 quest divided loyalties mountain vietnam ranald is real this is a dwarf quest (dwarfs) this is maybe an elf quest this is not a vampire quest this is not an empire quest try it and find out open voting
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We spied on Abelhelm the entire time we worked for him.
We also kept Kasmir being a Sigmar-only Priest from him. BoneyM did call us out for that in a later update.
People say we should trust Belegar. I'm inclined to agree. And fortuitously we have seen him make this very decision:
[X] No
He even has traits for it:
If Mathilde (aka us) thinks the best result will come from lying then he would want her (us) to lie.
[X] No
Belegar would not care. We would have to explain what the scary necromacy book even is.
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I am a "yes" voter but... dude, what you are saying is literally contradicting the very premise of this quest. The very premise being, that advisors DO hve interests and can pursue them though presentation of information.
Yes of course divided loyalties exist. We talked to the Chancellor about dwarf politics didn't we? We spied on Van Hall, but here is the thing just because we exist in a moral grey space most of the time does not mean we cannot have any morals we would not cross in the name of utilitarianism. Lying by omission because we know better than him what the interests of his hold are crosses that line for me. I do not want Mathilde to be the sort of person who would reward Belegar's faith in her with manipulation especially that most pernicious sort 'for his own good'
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While I agree with the other examples set in the thread, this one doesnt count, it was early thread incompetence (assuming he knew) not intentional.
Utilitarianism IS a morality system, I do not think that having solely utilitarian-based morals makes one inhuman or evil. The trap here, of course, is that morals cannot be solely utilitarian not because of its inhumanity or anything like that, but because multiple different conclusions can be reached when information is imperfect, meaning perfect utilitarian analyses are impossible, but I digress.
While my trust for Belegar does indeed play a significant part on my decision (informing, in fact, my initial instictual reaction), part of the reason I am voting for revealing it now is the fact that, well... Belegar my reserch information and/or reach a decision without our input anyway, and if he does it would be worse. Not wanting to rely on ooc knowledge is also a big part, admittedly, as an IC utilitarian analysis also says that it would be better for Belegar to know, as a good and wise king should be informed and Belegar is both.
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[X] No.
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- Chicago
- Pronouns
- She/They
Without ooc knowledge (IE, Thorgrim actually had a good explanation and reason for why he is taking all the magic) how is telling Belegar anything but instigating a dwarven civil war?
If there isn't a really fcking good reason for the theft, and let's be honest, there's nothing short of "it is saving all dwarves" that would excuse this and no reason to think that "it is saving all dwarves" as anything but laughable, then grudge or war is the expected and proper outcome.
I don't think Mathilde could take that on her conscious. Especially after worrying about a similar thing with the Karag Dum runemasters.
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pucflek
Verified simpleton
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Its like, right in this update. Humans created hang on bits for the Waystone network later on.
I rather doubt he wouldn't. IIRC BoneyM implied that if Dwarfs knew just how many loopholes the entire Mathilde doing Mathilde things hangs on, they would be rather horrified at how much she disregards her oaths. Even if he didn't, i added in some other big secrets we are keeping to ourselves that we should not be if we were truthful to our oaths.
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Possession and reading the Liber Mortis is not in breach of any article or oath, the empire would just kill her anyway out of an abundance of caution.
pucflek
Verified simpleton
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I don't care that you picked the one secret that maybe could be explained away via sufficient loopholes.
There is plenty of others. Denying Mathilde is a liar is just fooling yourself as to what she is.
I don't really see this is on Belegar to suck up honestly. At this point where we know there were other dwarves that were aware in broad strokes of what was going on, Thorgrim is basically in the position of needing to give a bit.
If Thorgrim can't or won't give a satisfactory explanation of some kind to Belegar when he demands one than he seems to me to not be up to the job of High King (A primary component of which is juggling the other kings) and should let someone else take a crack at it.
Thorgrim is not an absolute ruler that can expect unquestioning obedience from all other dwarves. So it's time for him to do some kind of peacemaking here.
If Thorgrim can't or won't give a satisfactory explanation of some kind to Belegar when he demands one than he seems to me to not be up to the job of High King (A primary component of which is juggling the other kings) and should let someone else take a crack at it.
Thorgrim is not an absolute ruler that can expect unquestioning obedience from all other dwarves. So it's time for him to do some kind of peacemaking here.
I am very pro-elf and so will definitely be voting for the waystones, and it is a good thing for me that it will be more dealing with characters and their needs, desires and interests rather than research. The first is a story to me, the second is more of a dialogue between the author and the thread with characters as a framing device, I feel. Cool for world building, but worlds aren't interesting as settings unless something is say there.
The Sylvania and Border Princess options are both very interesting to me, but they feel end-game as had been said. I hope they stay open- after elves and an acquiring an apprentice I would be delighted by either.
Wow, I feel like the exact opposite. The Waystones are the endgame project, while the Border Princess would be the work of a decade or so.
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- She/They
Is it worth, for Mathilde, being the one who instigated a dwarven civil war?
The waystones are fundamentally a project where our value is being able to get all the people who know pieces of the puzzle in the same room and talking to each other without killing each other.
Once we hit that point though, we become replaceable. We, despite the record of writing up cool things we've seen, aren't in the top tier of magical theorists and researchers- other people are very smart and haven't taken the time to do swording things as a distraction.
So I am pretty confident that our part in the waystones project is a five or ten year thing, not an unending responsibility like a territory.
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There is a difference between a liar and an oathbreaker and she has broken no oaths and I really dislike the slippery slope 'every lie is permitted because we told other lies' logic because it you do not set limits then Mathilde has no morals at all.
pucflek
Verified simpleton
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- Czech Republic
Also, addendum:
Which solves even your second comment, namely this one.
Care to try again?
Mathilde lies and breaks oaths if it suits her. Face it.
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We did not do the thing. If reading the Liber Mortis alone counted as Study of Necromancy than those Chaos Grimoires we read at the Colleges count as study of Daemonology.
pucflek
Verified simpleton
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How is studying the lore of necromancy to the point where you can actually theoretically cast the spells not studying the lore of necromancy?
There is a reason reading it was such a huge goddamn deal.
I refuse to 'face' the nihilism, thanks for the offer though.
She wouldn't be, if Thorgrim cannot satisfactorily resolve Belegar's very reasonable complaints, that's on him. Even then there wouldn't necessarily be a war. More likely to my mind is Belegar would declare he's no longer beholden to the High King and then cut the waystone lines. There's plenty of precedent for Dwarves leaving the Karaz Ankor.