Even if we don't start the first (Known) Dwarf Civil War, we're still likely to futher poison relations between K8Ps and the rest of the Dwarf Realm and so on.
Not exactly a fantastic thing to do.
Not exactly a fantastic thing to do.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
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- Fantasy Users' Choice!
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- warhammer warhammer fantasy fantasy be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist pansexual protagonist ck2 quest divided loyalties mountain vietnam ranald is real this is a dwarf quest (dwarfs) this is maybe an elf quest this is not a vampire quest this is not an empire quest try it and find out open voting
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
It isn't because we can't cast them. We are not a death mage for one.
pucflek
Verified simpleton
- Location
- Czech Republic
How is accepting one of the core traits of Mathilde "nihilism"? She has a strong moral core. She is just pragmatist at heart and does what she thinks is the best for everyone. The fact that you take this from the discussion is really weird take.
Do i really need to quote the literal Character Sheet on what we can or cannot do before you learn your lesson?
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Oathbreaking is not a core trait of a woman who has taken on dwarf cultural norms. She may lie, but she does not break her oaths. At most she interprets them narrowly when it suits her.
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I don't think that reading the Liber Mortis necessarily qualifies as breaching the Articles in Mathilde's own mind, but this is just incorrect.
Also, I would like to register the external perspective that the argument about "is this IC or OOC" is silly. If it were too OOC for Mathilde to do it, Boney wouldn't have given it to us as a vote. So I propose the discussion about "should we do this" be on the object level of "should we lie to Belegar," not the meta level of "would Mathilde ever lie to Belegar."
Necromancy is the art of using the Wind of Death to manipulate Dhar. Mathy has never touched Sthysh therefore she would at the very least have to take an action to learn how to do so in order to cast those spells.
[x] Yes
We don't actually know whether the Henges have the capabilities that Waystones do. They can interact with the network somehow, but we don't know how. For all we know they are designed to extract Ghyran from the network for geographic scale fertility magic that helps drain the surge of that Wind that happens in the spring that could otherwise overwhelm the damaged network.
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I think it's important to remember that Belegar has not spoken to Thorgrim about his grievance as of yet. So the implicit assumption that Thorgrim would be unable to resolve it is not particularly well founded.
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"That's on him" is washing your hands of anything that follows, which is possible rhetorically, but not if you have to live through it.
Seriously, what dwarf deals with a thief by walking away and never talking to them again?
No- it'd be demands he cease and pay recompense, at least, and a grudge to be settled or taken out in blood.
So: dwarf v dwarf, because one is oathbound to do the thing and not talk about it, and the other has been stolen from.
pucflek
Verified simpleton
- Location
- Czech Republic
Its literally in the goddamn character sheet. Pickle quoted it at you. Its on the first page of the thread.
I do not consider it OOC for Mathy to lie here, I just think it would be a serious breach of her morals, people can do that it just leaves them... less moral.
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- she/her/hers
Mathilde is the messenger, here. She would not be instigating a dwarven civil war - especially since Borek already knows and isn't mad, so there's clearly information to be had out there that would dissolve the process of creating a grudge. A complete grudge is a long, formal process; if some dwarves have an understanding -however incomplete - of what is going on, it is supremely unlikely that this rift would escalate into an armed conflict.
But more to the point: Mathilde is not the arbiter of what is and is not a violence-worthy offense between dwarven leaders. If Thorgrim's actions are a civil war-level offense, Mathilde does not have the right to keep that from the rightful ruler of the wronged party. It is simply not her decision to make. She is an advisor with powerful sway and a sterling (to put it lightly) reputation. If she recommends more information-gathering, Belegar will almost certainly so that - especially since he is not predisposed to violently overthrow the rightful King of the Karaz Ankor, as that is certainly Not Done. But it's his call.
It's two words in parentheses that we have never tested IC. From everything else we know of magic in the quest we would have to develop a way for Ulgu to replace Shysh or learn how to cast with Shysh first.
Other people think the more moral thing would be to lie.
You keep going on about "oathbreaking" without pointing to a specific oath being broken. Pretty sure that Mathilde never took an oath not to lie to her superiors, even in the context of being a Loremaster. I imagine oaths about serving the best interests of her king and K8P and such. Never tell a lie of omission? Don't see that being in there.
It is on him, that's what it means to be the High King, the buck stops with him. Even if he is oathbound (Which is not something we know one way or the other) There are ways he could work around said oath to deal with the issue.
I expect if things were not resolved satisfactorily then Belegar would publicly announce his grievances and make everyone aware he believes Thorgrim is a thief, I do not think he would go for a species suicide run to attempt to resolve the grievance, just like they don't go for a species suicide run to resolve the chaos dwarves.
Kornet
Quite possibly a sloth abomination
- Location
- Mother Russia
Mathilde was explicetly able to perform enough mental hymnastics to convince herself that it was not a breach of articles.
She, notably, was unable to do so for even samllest practical excercises (and I really wanted to test the second secret back in the day), so it went untested.
As far as Mathilde is convinced, she never broke the articles (and damn proud of that). She is aware, though, that not everyone would agree with that point of view, but she feel she is right (and they don't need to know, anyway).
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- Chicago
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- She/They
You are going to have to walk me through how not calling attention to the fact that the timing only makes sense if Thorgrim knew the power was on again is Oathbreaking.
What oath? Why is this a violation of it?
In text please. Oathbreaking is not a charge to throw around on speculation about what an oath might have said if you were writing it.
OK so in that presumed oath are we the ultimate arbiter of what is the best interests of the King and Hold?
- Location
- South Africa
[X] No.
Belegar deserves better than the suspicions based off a few days research. This is not lying - this is being aware that a report now will necessarily lack details and for a report of this magnitude it needs to be given with all possible details, not assuming that a non-loremaster will know more than the actual loremaster.
Belegar deserves better than the suspicions based off a few days research. This is not lying - this is being aware that a report now will necessarily lack details and for a report of this magnitude it needs to be given with all possible details, not assuming that a non-loremaster will know more than the actual loremaster.
Insofar as Mathilde's own actions? Sure! Who else could possibly be the ultimate arbiter?
Just as all the other councillors have to be their own judge of what actions are in the best interests of king and hold.
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It is a lie by omission in order to manipulate our sworn lord to do what we want in matters of interstate diplomacy, it is serving her own vision of what the king should do rather than his though misleading (in this case incomplete) counsel. 'Giving false counsel' is historically oathbreaking, though I do not have the oath Mathy swore IC to compare.
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- Chicago
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- She/They
Sorry, but what do you think PUBLICLY DECLARING THE HIGH KING A THIEF IS? Like, there is a strong possibility that this leads to a whole bunch of Mathilde's friends and the empire's allies suddenly dropping everything to murder each other, and you would prefer that to letting Mathilde's personal sense of honor get smudged a bit?
Especially because the *best case* is the Belegar finds it in himself to just swallow being stolen from. That's a cruel trying to do to a friend.
- Location
- Austria
Yeah, this.
Both Belegar and Thorgrim are oauthbound to stay their course and not stop. And dwarfs are nothing if not stubborn. Mathilde is in position to prevent a collision, if she lies to Belegar, or wash her hands away from all the responsibility because "it would be on him and so not my problem".
I think it would be extremely irresponsible for Mathilde to see potential political disaster and make no effort to avoid it because "if it happens it would not be on her". She is Lady Magister, one of most respected individuals of the time period, she has to take responsibility sometimes instead of washing her hands off the situation ASAP.