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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Orkus Majorkus said:
The Fuck Thorim train is still around from what I've seen.
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My issue with Thorgrim is that from what I recall, he was something of a father figure to Belegar. He encouraged Belegar to set of the Expedition to take K8P, gave him supplies and encouragement and money, and sent him off. And when Belegar returned having taken 3 peaks, thinking, "Yeah... yeah, I can do this thing! I might be able to make this work!" what was Thorgrim's response?

"How long can your foothold last? Long enough to take some vengeance? Strike out some grudges?" Thorgrim never believed in Belegar, not for a moment. It was all about striking out some grudges.

Mind you, this is a case of, "Thorgrim told you what he was." He was the High King who announced an Age of Vengeance. He was the one who decided that the dawi are doomed and all that mattered was striking out every last grudge. Belegar should have known... but he didn't. Somehow Belegar managed to get the idea that Thorgrim believed in him.

"How long can your foothold last?" Man. I think that was maybe the cruelest line in the entire quest. Oh, characters have done far worse things, but never before or since have we seen someone so close to another person say words quite so crushing.
 
Abhorsen said:
But every religion has their own version of evil fanatics.
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The problem is that when it comes to Sigmar our encounters with those fanatics keep being with them in positions of authority, making it very easy to believe that the Theogonist would be one of them.

If some low-level worshippers of a god are the fanatics who take it in the wrong direction, that's a problem. If the head of the church is actively promoting fanaticism it's a far bigger problem.

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The comparison of all the different people who sent corrupts and incompetents to be part of Stirland's council doesn't endear me to the Sigmarites as much as it makes me think Mathilde needs to become Imperial Spymaster as that's the only one of the positions she can plausibly replace.

Well, that or head of a Lahmian conspiracy :p
 
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BoneyM said:
The Spymaster sent an embezzler, Talabecland sent a coward, the Colleges sent a spy for the Vampires, and the sop to the locals was shockingly incompetent and naive.
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The Colleges sent a spy for the vampires... who was also an embezzler.

[ ] Money don't grow on trees, and I got bills to pay. (+100 personal gold, -100 discretionary gold, almost no risk)
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DISCRETIONARY GOLD EMBEZZLED: 100
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;)
 
TalonofAnathrax said:
I literally never noticed this. I'd always just assumed that he was normal. Is the EC's infrastructure-builder person meant to be a combat position or something? Would things have gone better if he'd been less afraid to work on a road getting raided by intangible ghost monsters or whatever?
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BoneyM said:
Herr Schultz hasn't suggested a single course of action that takes him outside the safety of Wurtbad's walls. Van Hal is tired of it, and wrote in an order.
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It was pretty subtle since we never interacted with him that much.
 
Darth. said:
Been reading the wiki and I know the End Times thing is bs, but also, just, what? Yes let's stop keeping the millions of daemons out of our homes because of one idiot/lunatic/heretic. Smh. Honestly this alone would justify covertly (not the doomed to fail unsubtle sucker-punch to the balls attempt that the thread is suggesting), working to reduce the political influence of the Sigmarite Cult.
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While ordinarily, I'd agree, the fact that Gelt had murdered an Elector Count, been working with a Daemon of Tzeentch and had used necromancy to fight his way out of an attempt by the Reiksguard to arrest him, after he attempted to assassinate Valten, commonly held to be the Herald of Sigmar, it looked less like Gelt was a random lunatic or a heretic and more that the Auric Bastion was a trap. It probably didn't help that the Bastion was based on the work of a vampire though.

End Times was BS, but most (and the worst) of the BS was from Book 3 (the one where Malekith was the true Phoenix King all along) onwards. It was still railroady, but it didn't obliterate decades of built up lore, which was people's major problem with it. Also that it destroyed the world, but that was a sales problem.
 
reignonyrparade said:
They are genuinely not All The Same, the sigmarites are uniquely prone to this problem.
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Suppose it might be a side effect of being an everyman's god, who can be worshipped in any domain if it involves working for the good of the Empire. You end up with a lot of people in said empire thinking that there's no need to worship other gods, since all the things they cover can be done in Sigmar's name too.
 
Omegahugger said:
I was specifically thinking of a time when SV repeatedly lobbed increasingly larger firestorms at the enemy territory, burning everything in their paths, and then was shocked when the token decent enemy hero refused to switch sides on account of all the burned villages (and also his friends that we'd killed over the course of the war, though IIRC that was secondary).
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What quest was that?
Redshirt Army said:
Imagine what the thread would be up to if you hadn't posted that snippet of the Throne of Power regaining power. A lot of people would be right on board with Belegar on the "fuck Thorgrim" train.
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A lot still are. But imagine what we'd have done to find out what Thorgrim is doing with the energy if we didn't already know OOC.
Jyn Ryvia said:
but one we might want to wait on until the superstitious locals are a little bit more used to our shenanigans and tomfoolery.

let them get used to Mathy brand weirdness at smaller doses first....
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You think the locals will find us weirder and scarier than their previous liege lords?
BoneyM said:
Talabecland sent a coward
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Oh he was supposed to come over as cowardly? I thought he was acting like a sane civilian from an area not as close to Sylvania. I mean if I were to be send to the Haunted Hills because I studied architecture...
TalonofAnathrax said:
Is the EC's infrastructure-builder person meant to be a combat position or something?
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He wasn't even an infrastructure builder. He was a talented architect specialized in castles and fortresses that was supposedly given the position of Learning advisor. Instead he was sent to do stuff that he was grossly overqualified for architecturally speaking, while also having to do those jobs in the middle of horrifying abominations risen from the dead to eat his body and soul.
Briefvoice said:
The Colleges sent a spy for the vampires... who was also an embezzler.
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On the other hand the Spymaster of Stirland had a shit work budget and shit pay compared to the insane ~1/20th of a whole army's pay that the first Military advisor was apparently embezzling.
 
Briefvoice said:
"How long can your foothold last? Long enough to take some vengeance? Strike out some grudges?" Thorgrim never believed in Belegar, not for a moment. It was all about striking out some grudges.
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He definitely believed in his ability to strike out some grudges, and maybe strike out a lot more if he could hold. This isn't the form of belief that anyone wanted, but its the kind Thorgrim had on tap.
 
I think one of the thread problems is that it's hard to remember that for most of the history of the empire: The wizards were actually pretty much the bad guys. and that history isn't going away just like that.

before Telic and the colleges 90 out of 100 times people that selfishly tried to develop their magic ability either
A: blow up and killed everyone around them at some point,
B: accidentally summon demons and made everyone wish that they killed them.
C: lived long enough to be both powerful, and insane enough from dhur poisoning to summon demons/undead and sick them on everyone around them.

back in the shaman days, most of the cults and tribes were ok with a few magic users around, and even the Sigmarites were not originally anti-magic, just anti-bad magic.

but over time Wizards were at the centre of just so much bad shit that the stance of everyone, cult, city, institution, etc hardand. to the point that even if 'magic bad' as not a religious truth, it was a cultural one.

things have changed, and the colleges are slowly showing that its not just an act and that they are not the assholes of the past...

but even for the 'short-live' humans. the very real stories of wizard horrors are still floating around... and they aren't lies or propaganda, they are things that happened, and still sometimes happens when a magic-user goes rouge or fucks up.
 
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Rafin said:
Oh he was supposed to come over as cowardly? I thought he was acting like a sane civilian from an area not as close to Sylvania. I mean if I were to be send to the Haunted Hills because I studied architecture...
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That's fair, but Abelhelm would have chosen someone made of sterner stuff if he'd had a free hand, and if one was so inclined they could definitely get miffed at Talabecland for prioritizing someone they had hooks in over someone better suited for a Stirland posting.
 
So I want to try my hand at making another Mathilde as a Total War: Warhammer Legendary Lord omake. So I want to ask the thread for their opinions on something, basically some details I'm not too sure about at the moment:

1: Mathilde's starting Location, currently thinking somewhere in or around Sylvania but not too sure. Other option would be near Karak 8 Peaks which would add a human faction to the region that is typically just Dwarves, Orcs and Skaven.

2. What would her starting bonus units be? Usually each Legendary Lord starts with a set of 3 bonus units, typically a pair of mid-tier units and a single high tier one. Currently my ideas are upper mid-tier cavalry unit in the form of the White Wolves and maybe something for the We spiders. Not sure for the high tier one, had an idea of using the Mammoth Wizard Altar back during that vote but that has passed.

3. Mathilde's mount options. Now obviously Mathilde would have her Shadowstead as her horse option, but most Lords have a more expensive option that tends to be either some kind of monster or a flying unit (or both, looking at you Elves and your Dragons). But what would Mathilde's be? I want to break away from the standard human options of a Pegasus or Griffon, once again considered the Mammoth but that has passed.

Finally there is the matter of Mathilde's unique campaign mechanics, my current idea is that she has 2 main ones. The first is her coin, basically every so many turns you can pick an appropriate bonus based on which face of the coin you choose. The second is a theme of "Stealing" units, although for friendly factions like the dwarves it's framed as more getting them through favors, with a Ranald theme. Basically if you use the mechanic you can temporarily gain access to units which are outright from other factions or reskinned versions of one in other factions (this is mostly a lore thing) so for instance getting some Hex Wraiths which are reskinned as Mathilde's bound Nazghul riders.
 
Jyn Ryvia said:
I think one of the thread problems is that it's hard to remember that for most of the history of the empire: The wizards were actually pretty much the bad guys. and that history isn't going away just like that.

before Telic and the colleges 90 out of 100 times people that selfishly tried to develop their magic ability either
A: blow up and killed everyone around them at some point,
B: accidentally summon demons and made everyone wish that they killed them.
C: lived long enough to be both powerful, and insane enough from dhur poisoning to summon demons/undead and sick them on everyone around them.

back in the shaman days, most of the cults were ok with a few magic users around, and even the Sigmarites were not originally anti-magic, just anti-bad magic.

but over time Wizards were at the centre of just so much bad shit that the stance of everyone, cult, city, institution, etc hardand. to the point that even if 'magic bad' as not a religious truth, it was a cultural one.

things have changed, and the colleges are slowly showing that its not just an act and that they are not the assholes of the past...

but even for the 'short-live' humans. the very real stories of wizard horrors are still floating around... and they aren't lies or propaganda, they are things that happened, and still sometimes happens when a magic-user goes rouge or fucks up.
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(Disclaimer: I may be missing some significant piece of lore here. If so, please be patient, as I may be wrong here, I am merely raising some questions over the assertions above, not necessarily claiming they are wrong)

The way this is phrased, it sounds to me very chicken and eggy. Did the wizards get less accepted because they were dangerous... or did they become more and more dangerous because they were getting less accepted?

I agree there are real dangers here, but human bigotry can exaggerate even non dangers when culture changes, and it wouldnt seem strange to me if wizards became so dangerous as to be "almost always the bad guy" due to the growing cultural hate, not before it.

After all, no other country in the old world has this problem, wizards were only banned in the Empire... and only really that dangerous in the Empire. Estalia, Tilea, Ind, Cathay, wizards are allright. Kislev, well, it has some unique circumstances, but magic as a whole is allright. Brettonia and Araby... are totally unique and cannot be used as arguments in this discussion either way.

Edit: also, in most cases, "selfishly developing your magic ability" is the only way NOT to explode/summon demons on accident, its why apprentices are kept in colleges.
 
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BoneyM said:
That's fair, but Abelhelm would have chosen someone made of sterner stuff if he'd had a free hand, and if one was so inclined they could definitely get miffed at Talabecland for prioritizing someone they had hooks in over someone better suited for a Stirland posting.
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Truthfully I felt like Mathilde was not the only one that was sent by Lahmians. Only she was the one sent directly. More like others too were manipulated to manifacture a stiuation where they could easily takeover and Mathilde was more like ensurance to keep an eye on others who were moved there unwittingly. It was telling the ones we were asked to examine closely were Anton and new Marshal, 2 people most likely to be not send in with their strings.

I mean Empress could put the right ideas in right heads to sent just enough incopetents to set up Abelheim for a failure.
 
Sinsystems said:
3. Mathilde's mount options. Now obviously Mathilde would have her Shadowstead as her horse option, but most Lords have a more expensive option that tends to be either some kind of monster or a flying unit (or both, looking at you Elves and your Dragons). But what would Mathilde's be? I want to break away from the standard human options of a Pegasus or Griffon, once again considered the Mammoth but that has passed.
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Well, though I think the trend of adding super mounts has been detrimental to the game, perhaps a gyrocopter would work. Mathilde has spent a lot of time in one of those commuting various places. In fact, I think those are the only other things besides landships or boats that she has ridden in quest.
 
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BoneyM said:
That's fair, but Abelhelm would have chosen someone made of sterner stuff if he'd had a free hand, and if one was so inclined they could definitely get miffed at Talabecland for prioritizing someone they had hooks in over someone better suited for a Stirland posting.
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Got to say I am rather intrigued by the prospect of putting our own council of advisors together.

In most CK quests the advisors are footnotes with a paragraph worth of characterisation between them. In this quest each advisor is a story unto themselves. I would love to see the dynamic from the other side.
 
Ericwinter said:
If you're making those an actual unit instead of just a spell like Golden Hounds, they could probably be one of her unique units.
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Hmm possibly, like I am going to have Mathilde have a unique spell to summon a group of them. Could possibly work as a unique, high tier cavalry unit found at the end of the Wizard building tree.
SurpriseMe said:
Well, though I think the trend of adding super mounts has been detrimental to the game, perhaps a gyrocopter would work. Mathilde has spent a lot of time in one of those commuting various places. In fact, I think those are the only other things besides landships or boats that she has ridden in quest.
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Hmmm possibly, personally I want to avoid giving Mathilde a flying mount to be honest. Perhaps I might skip the upper tier mount and just make it so you can upgrade her Shadowsteed to give Mathilde immunity to fatigue or something along those lines.
 
Sinsystems said:
So I want to try my hand at making another Mathilde as a Total War: Warhammer Legendary Lord omake. So I want to ask the thread for their opinions on something, basically some details I'm not too sure about at the moment:
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For the starting units give her a fellow wizard hero to start with (randomize which of the duckling come along)

Could also be udumgi pikemen (beefier empire linemen with solid armour)

For the legendary mount. Maybe turning shadowsteed into an actual dragon would work well (make it the fastest unit in the game but it can't attack)

Alternatively give her a unique rapid fire teleport spell

You would probably also want to do some quests for Mathilde. As I remember they're part of the game.

In only a very gauge order

- conquer Kazakh drakh as a start.
- make it to Laurelon while allied to the faction that owns it (waystones)
- own Drakenhof
- be allied to Ulthuan and be on nagaryth
- conquer karag Dum (though have it be guarded by dwarves and an allied faction of beastmen)

Maybe also get something if all the old holds of the dwarves are re-taken
 
storryeater said:
After all, no other country in the old world has this problem, wizards were only banned in the Empire... and only really that dangerous in the Empire. Estalia, Tilea,
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Actually, they are banned there too. There certainly isn't a college equivalent there to teach them, which is why those who can get together the money for it make their way to Altdorf's colleges from abroad.
 
Angelform said:
Got to say I am rather intrigued by the prospect of putting our own council of advisors together.

In most CK quests the advisors are footnotes with a paragraph worth of characterisation between them. In this quest each advisor is a story unto themselves. I would love to see the dynamic from the other side.
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We could always necromance ourselves a band of unshakable soul-bound undead councilors. Mathilde may have Divided Loyalties, but her councilors should be Undividedly Loyal to Mathilde and Mathilde alone.
 
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