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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Aranfan said:
What is Omegahugger's theory anyway? I missed the discussion.
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Omegahugger said:
So I have a theory on the timeline here.

There are three points that I think are worth keeping in mind:
1: Borek, by all accounts, didn't think that Karak Dum had fallen when he started this expedition.
2: The very second he took a look at it now, he thinks they need forgiveness from the Ancestors.
3: Most crucially, Borek did not seem surprised to see Morghur

I really do like the "Morghur was born into a Karak Dum family, who managed to runically contain his nature" theory. It's a theory that's fully congruent with what we know is possible and it is fits with BoneyM's stated views that anyone can be redeemed. The problem is that it in at of itself doesn't explain why Borek only thinks Karak Dum is beyond saving now, when he clearly has to have known Morghur's existance from before he left it. Something has to have changed between the two points, and we do have to do some finagling -and indeed some blatant guessing and assumptions- to make it fit, but I think it can be done.

So what I think could've happened is this:

Before Karak Dum got swallowed up by the Chaos Wastes, Morghur got killed in Bretonnia and got "reborn" to a family in Karak Dum. Since Dawi are notoriously resistant to mutations, the actual "growth" of Morghur got slowed down enough for Karak Dum's runesmiths (renowned as among the greatest) to be able to develop a way for pre-Morghur to retain his sanity and literal grip on reality as he grew up. This is not inherently different from what the rune of Valaya does, so it is not an impossible feat to imagine. The dwarves of Karak Dum now had a fully sapient and very powerful Beastman living peacefully among them, a fact that they chose to keep secret because let's be honest, the vast majority of Order factions would not believe for a second that this could actually happen.

So now Borek leaves Karak Dum, which notably was still part of a mountain range at this point, to make sure help actually arrived for the oncoming Chaos Storm. Probably with a tearful goodbye from Morghur, because that's how fiction rolls. And the warning was not heeded, Dum got swallowed up, Vlag disappeared, Borek swore vengeance and the rest is history.

Karak Dum then spends somewhere between 20 and 200 years under siege from the Chaos forces, where Morghul naturally participates in defending his home. The scene seems dire and impossible (because it is), and so the Dawi decide to go radical. Using the genius of their runesmiths and bits of ancestral beastmen knowledge stuck in Morghul's mind, they manage to make their waystone appear and/or act like a non-corrupted herdstone. Which is what made the Beastman forest (that Mathilde described as disturbingly familiar, which means it is similar to Imperial forests in some way Mathilde can't explain) appear in the mountains, where a forest of that type wouldn't normally be able to flourish. But since that isn't enough to ward off Chaos forces, I think what they eventually did is rely on Morghur's metaphysical nature as a world-altering demigod to either attract beastmen to their cause or to turn themselves into something beastmen like. Which are obvious enough ideas as last-case solutions that they were probably discussed before Borek left, and that he then recognised on sight once he got here.

I also think this pure herdstone is what caused the desert to appear, by rendering the surrounding landscape "unliveable", but I'll admit that that's the shakiest part of this already shaky theory.
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[X] ACTION: Gain more information.

Fuck it, fine, I gotta know. Can't rely on Boney telling us what it was when we're gone. If the quest ends the quest ends.

Curiosity kills the cat and all that.

Honestly, I really want Omegahuggers wild conspiracy theories to be true.
 
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Garlak said:
It would help if we knew how Morghur normally acted -- not just in terms of "would he do X thing like headpat?" but also "does he scream and blabber like a madman and act crazy" -- because mere bindings might get him to not harm the right people but they won't get him to behave civilly or sanely.
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I have to think we are totally misinterpreting the head-patting as any kind of "gesture of affection". As I said a little bit back, it seems much more likely to me that "Morghur" needed to inspect Borek in some way to grant him entrance, that the inspection required touching him, and that the top of Borek's head was a perfectly normal choice for a spot to touch him given their comparative sizes.

185 years is a long time even for a dwarf. I'm pretty damn sure it didn't recognize him by sight or anything.
 
A big part of the Beastman culture is being abandoned by one's parents in the wilderness, a not insignificant analogy to the Karack's situation. If Morghur has avatar-preserved memories of being abandoned by parents, the one time *he isnt* probably holds a lot of sway.
 
My computer isn't working at the moment so this is about as complicated as I can Make a vote.

[X] Action: Go up to the edge of the ring and shout out a demand that Borek come out and meet you or prove himself a traitor and a coward.

I do think we should at least mention how weirdly moghur is acting. No matter what Borek is or what moghur thinks he is, it would never show another being affection.

Even if borek was literally its child it would never show borek such affection.

Whatever this is, it at bare minimum isn't the being it appears to be. This should be brought up in whatever theory gets through.

Also, spell check is the worst. I had to respell this post like 20 times.
 
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[] THEORY: Ranald is havin a lark on us in'he. He stole a karak out of the wastes and plopped somewhere like them mountains outside Araby or Lustria or Naggaroth or wherever who cares it's a good prank
[] ACTION: Pray to Ranald and roll a dice to see what action to take
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

in all seriousness though-
[X] THEORY: The specifics are hazy, but this is a known contingency plan that Borek is entirely aware of, but hoped hadn't been enacted. The result breaks all Dawi notions of acceptability, but Karak Dum survives in some capacity and continues to inflict attrition on every local and visiting Chaos force that want to take a swing at them, so it is considered a lesser evil by the pragmatic Karak Dum.

This is the most likely scenario. I honestly think they decided to learn magic. Why can Dawi not use magic? The ritual done at birth. We know this from Gunnars.
By combining Runecraft with Mage Sight and Magical Proficiency, you can create artifacts similar to the "Hand of the Gods" burning gaze shooting gauntlet we have acquired.
The combination is literally the tech path towards Old Ones' Technology.

Horribly though, the shame of abandoning the Ancestors and embracing such radical ideas would mean that the techniques can not be shared. Even if Dum is the hardest to take hold in all the Karaz Ankor, even if Dum claims more wounds and kills against Chaos than the whole Karaz Ankor they would still be "fallen" as it were.

I just.
[X] ACTION: Turn back

There is no way to learn more about this place and what they have done which doesn't greatly hurt the Karaz Ankor in the short term. I am not against investigation. I think Order could come out with an extremely strong overall win here even if there is a Karaz Ankor civil war because of it.

I.

Them staying Order despite all that has happened? Order but radical (and atraditional) in the extreme? It's maybe the worst outcome for the Karaz Ankor (as we know it) possible.

How many longbeards and elders would go slayer if the established traditions are found, without a shadow of a doubt, to be significantly weaker and less effective than radical adaptation? How much shame would weigh the hearts of the Dawi knowing that their rigid traditions have made them weak to the point of breaking. To the point where one Zhufi of a species only recently civilized with only a small magical history can do more for the Karaz Ankor by the time they're a plaitling than all of dwarfkind can do for themselves in centuries of toil?

Holy. Moly.
I will accept the consequences and cool storylines of investigation. But I think I'd prefer not wrestling with that stuff. Yikes.
 
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[x] THEORY: The specifics are hazy, but this is a known contingency plan that Borek is entirely aware of, but hoped hadn't been enacted. The result breaks all Dawi notions of acceptability, but Karak Dum survives in some capacity and continues to inflict attrition on every local and visiting Chaos force that want to take a swing at them, so it is considered a lesser evil by the pragmatic Karak Dum.
[x] [ACTION]: Turn back.
 
Mopman43 said:
I mean, that's Mathilde's opinion of it.
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Yes, that's what it looked like from a long way away. Maybe it even physically matched the exact motions of a gesture of affection. But just because something looks like something doesn't mean it isn't something else, and doesn't it seem unlikely that Borek would be granted entrance without some kind of inspection?
 
This isn't to satisfy our curiosity, this is a intelligence gathering operation and a potentially unneeded rescue operation. We need the info for Belegar and Thorek to decide what to do with Karag Dum, and see if the dwarves need help or just want to be left alone. If they fall to the Kurgan tribes or something else it would affect the Waystone network which will be a loss to the dwarves.

Karag Dum also holds strategic value, with radical tech and lost tech that the current dwarves have forgotten. The dwarves also need waystone power , not as much since Karak 8 peaks, but still needed to be above the safety minimum power, the dwarves of Thorek.
 
Katahiraga said:
The dwarves also need waystone power , not as much since Karak 8 peaks, but still needed to be above the safety minimum power
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No, I'm pretty sure the section with Thorgrim was pretty clear that K8P being reclaimed put them over the top.

Presumably, Karag Dum and Karak Vlag reconnecting would put them some ways towards being able to activate one of the (other) great works of the Ancestor Gods, assuming they still know how to and have physical access to it. (And we have no idea how much closer it might put them, of course)
 
Rafin said:
I gotta ask again. What makes us think that Morghur can't be naturally affectionate to the Beastmen (and other assorted gribblies like "what the fuck is wrong with you" tyle Dawi) that he personally likes? Only Khorne seems diametrically opposed to affectionate love, because he's the kind of guy who worries about being called gay for not punching everything that moves.
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True. I do think it's possible for him to be that way. I'm just... not sure. I have no idea.

Maybe in his insanity, he holds a twisted affection for gribbles and stuff, and so he would in fact act like this. Or maybe he's sometimes affectionate, sometimes frothing madman, sometimes still and silent and who knows.

It's a little bit more likely for him to be like this if he's been purified tho'. Though, yes, it's possible for him to be like this even as a madman -- just, most things do not normally survive Morghur's affections or attention.


... One thing I'm less sure about is, does Morghur consciously or randomly warp everything in his vicinity?

We've been working on the assumption that his warping-field is indiscriminate and uncontrollable, from the wiki, but we have no idea if that's true or accurate in this quest. It could be that for the purposes of most observers in this quest's world, most people can't freaking tell if Morghur warps stuff on accident or on purpose or willingly or not, because all they see is the results. They don't see inside his head. Nor do they see him as what he's like when at a "home" so who knows.

Either way though... The fact that Borek didn't get warped and transmuted by Cor-Dum is...

I don't know.

Does it weigh things towards the "Probably bound somehow? Bound, and then Dwarfs are put on the FOF, so he physically can't Warp them" possibility? Or towards the "They somehow purged him of Dhar?" possibility?

Maybe Morghur reaching out and headpatting Borek was him trying to do the warping-and-changing on somebody, which he does with affection as he's essentially spreading a blessing. And then failing because the Dum Dwarfs naturally put Dwarfs on the whitelist to not ever be warped by him (or because Dum Dwarfs have other defenses against things or workings of Dum).

Or maybe he reached out and poked Borek because he's not an insane Dhar-tained monster anymore. Not sure.


... I suppose I kind of feel like, if Morghur was a huge mass of Dhar, Mathilde would have noted it in her observation of him?

Instead, she says that reality screams when he gestures, but... that could be the case from using heavy magic and transformation magic. There are polymorph spells in the Winds of Magic after all. There are also spells like the Final Transformation from Chamon which will transmute you to gold and thus totally freakin' kill you. So, hostile transformation or polymorphing effects, which nevertheless are not Dhar.

And yet, instead, Mathilde is not hyperventilating and going "holy fuck that's a lot of Dhar." (Then again, Vampires were able to hide Dhar taint... then again, would Cor-Dum bother to do so?)

... Still.

Weird. Very weird.

I'm glad the vote is phrased as "Mathilde will present the leading theories and courses of action as possibilities to the rest of the Council." The leading theories and courses of action. Not just the one leading one. So... Probably the theories viewed as most reasonable-sounding or the most likely ones, will get offered. (Same for courses of action to take.)

Which's good. Because it's hard, and kind of wrong, to just give a single definite "It must be like this" theory or answer to this. It would ring false if we gave a theory like that. Instead, we present the things we have figured out, or the things we thing are likely or possible. And then let everybody else voice their ideas and opinions and speak their mind. And then, probably the expedition council votes to either go home or stick around for a little bit or to send Mathilde to investigate or send a Dwarf in or maybe they vote to camp for a few days, in order to see if Borek comes back.
 
I don't think this is the case, but I don't want to leave this as a problem for future us and find out 10 years from now that the waystone is converting to a herdstone and we need to do something before it floods every karak with dhar.

We are here right now. Worst comes to worst we can input the "waystone self destruct pass code" the colleges taught us.

I don't think the Hold is hostile but if it is we need to blow it up now instead of later, and if it isn't asking for an explanation is harmless.
 
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So a lot of these theories are inconsistent with what we actually know about quest-reality.

why do we think there was any chaos-taint burning?
The crater could equally be the result of some other form of magic, or from Morghur teleporting here.
 
Mopman43 said:
This ain't really his stomping grounds.

I mean, this isn't Morghur's either*, but at least he's got the whole "die then spawn again elsewhere" thing going on. Malagor would have to get up here on his own.
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Malagor can fly. It's not that huge a deal.

*Honestly, I would not be surprised at all if Morghur actually hangs out in the Chaos Wastes when he's between spawnings- my personal theory for what's going on is that Morghur happened across Karag Dum some time after Araloth burned him to a crisp with OoA sap, and the Runemasters managed to capture him because they figured he'd just respawn if they killed him. Then one of them had the idea of using him, and the debate over that was ongoing when Borek left to seek aid
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Morghur hangs out in the Arden Forest.
 
guyfromtheplace1 said:
So a lot of these theories are inconsistent with what we actually know about quest-reality.

why do we think there was any chaos-taint burning?
The crater could equally be the result of some other form of magic, or from Morghur teleporting here.
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It's a useful explanation that covers both the crater and the reduced ambient dhar levels. Speculation and deduction is all we've got to work with.
 
EVA-Saiyajin said:
Malagor can fly. It's not that huge a deal.
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He's never been seen outside the Empire and we're over 1000 miles away. And why would he?

EVA-Saiyajin said:
Morghur hangs out in the Arden Forest.
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That's why I said between spawnings.

Like, it's not instant. He usually seems to be out for a couple hundred years. Yes, in terms of the regular world, the Forest of Arden is his locale of choice when he's not actively trying to eat Ariel's soul.
 
So, here's a thought.

What if there was a runic array set up to keep the beastmen from actually entering the Karak, but still having them "worship" the waystone as a Herdstone. An illusory array meant to convince the beastmen that, for all intents and purposes, the Karak was conquered and under their control, even though it wasn't.

It could have even been attuned to alter the behavior of the Beastmen as runic controls on their behavior grew ever-more complex over the centuries.

Edit: I have not been reading the thread enough. I am confused and scared.
 
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