Alright, I posted it earlier - why aren't they wearing high quality armor? Beastmen bodies do not suddenly make them suicidal or detest civilization, or solve their population problems (maybe that one). They'd be kitted up to the nines if they're outside in the wastes even if they're Beastmen. It's far more plausible that they're breeding Beastmen and binding them to ease their population issue.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
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- Tags
- warhammer warhammer fantasy fantasy be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist pansexual protagonist ck2 quest divided loyalties mountain vietnam ranald is real this is a dwarf quest (dwarfs) this is maybe an elf quest this is not a vampire quest this is not an empire quest try it and find out open voting
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Shard dragons are not Beastmen. It's using runes to bind Chaos entities is blasphemy.
- Location
- Burgundian Netherlands
There's a few theories going around that disagree.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I'm honestly curious as to what lied beyond the veil even if it is dangerous.
[x] ACTION: Ask the local tribes to get confirmation of how long Cor-Dum has been here, and a story of how he arrived. Maybe send some Winter Wolves and Hubert(or just Hubert)somewhere to ask, Hubert knows Khazalid right? Or maybe send Johann?
[x] ACTION: Dig up some of those bones to confirm how they died.
[x] THEORY: The crater and missing mountains are due to Morghur translocating or teleporting here. Physical signs point to Morghur having been holding the area against nomad raiders for a very long time, and history implies that he's not been seen in the old world since approximately when Karag Dum would have come under attack during the Great War against Chaos. He's been here this whole time. Magical signs and, less reliably, intuition about Borek, point to there being something uncorrupted in that mountain in the middle. Theory continued: Borek expected Morghur, Morghur favors Borek, Borek isn't chaos-aligned(he had the chance to prevent us from acting on Vlag, but he didn't, and was, in fact, happy about the result). Obvious conclusion, Morghur is aligned with Borek in some way apart from alignment to chaos. Less obvious conclusion: Morghur is aligned with Karag Dum because he was a dwarf. That is to say, the first incarnation of Morghur was born a dwarf, far longer ago than merely 300 years ago. And Dwarf souls that never have the rites to send them to the underearth are ejected from the aether, and reincarnated into new bodies to live another life, over and over again. Morghur was originally a secret shame of Karag Dum, his first incarnation was a dwarf that went into the chaos wastes and was changed into what he is now. Possibly someone who followed Grimnir, then had the shame of coming back alive/having his soul corrupted by chaos down to the core so as to cause disaster when reborn, possibly someone else important to Karag Dum's history, important enough to remember rather than burying or forgetting to dull the shame. They have formed a pact with Morghur to defend them and probably isolate them from everything outside, but it is still uncertain whether they've actually fallen into corruption, maybe chaos dwarves now, maybe not.
[x] Action - Approach Cor Dum
[x] ACTION: Ask the local tribes to get confirmation of how long Cor-Dum has been here, and a story of how he arrived. Maybe send some Winter Wolves and Hubert(or just Hubert)somewhere to ask, Hubert knows Khazalid right? Or maybe send Johann?
[x] ACTION: Dig up some of those bones to confirm how they died.
[x] THEORY: The crater and missing mountains are due to Morghur translocating or teleporting here. Physical signs point to Morghur having been holding the area against nomad raiders for a very long time, and history implies that he's not been seen in the old world since approximately when Karag Dum would have come under attack during the Great War against Chaos. He's been here this whole time. Magical signs and, less reliably, intuition about Borek, point to there being something uncorrupted in that mountain in the middle. Theory continued: Borek expected Morghur, Morghur favors Borek, Borek isn't chaos-aligned(he had the chance to prevent us from acting on Vlag, but he didn't, and was, in fact, happy about the result). Obvious conclusion, Morghur is aligned with Borek in some way apart from alignment to chaos. Less obvious conclusion: Morghur is aligned with Karag Dum because he was a dwarf. That is to say, the first incarnation of Morghur was born a dwarf, far longer ago than merely 300 years ago. And Dwarf souls that never have the rites to send them to the underearth are ejected from the aether, and reincarnated into new bodies to live another life, over and over again. Morghur was originally a secret shame of Karag Dum, his first incarnation was a dwarf that went into the chaos wastes and was changed into what he is now. Possibly someone who followed Grimnir, then had the shame of coming back alive/having his soul corrupted by chaos down to the core so as to cause disaster when reborn, possibly someone else important to Karag Dum's history, important enough to remember rather than burying or forgetting to dull the shame. They have formed a pact with Morghur to defend them and probably isolate them from everything outside, but it is still uncertain whether they've actually fallen into corruption, maybe chaos dwarves now, maybe not.
[x] Action - Approach Cor Dum
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Ok, what did they bind them with, if not Chaos or runes?
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I'll reiterate that if *Mathilde* doesn't think its an illusion we can pretty safely assume its not an illusion.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
*wakes up and reads*
...huh.
Ok.
Somethong really fucked odd is going on. Borek walked up to Morghur...he walked up to Morghur. He was TOUCHED by Morghur.
Oh yeah, and Morghur is here and apparently made Dum his Herdstone.
But he was touched by Morghur. And isn't a Chaos Spawn.
Well, time to get to the actual discussion. Normally I'd rather take on 4 Greater Daemons than Morghur, nevermind in the Chaos Wastes near his mountain sized herdstone but this is bizarre.
Still, I guess all the runic crap is keeping just looking at Morghur from causing people's eyes to bleed, among other things.
...huh.
Ok.
Somethong really fucked odd is going on. Borek walked up to Morghur...he walked up to Morghur. He was TOUCHED by Morghur.
Oh yeah, and Morghur is here and apparently made Dum his Herdstone.
But he was touched by Morghur. And isn't a Chaos Spawn.
Well, time to get to the actual discussion. Normally I'd rather take on 4 Greater Daemons than Morghur, nevermind in the Chaos Wastes near his mountain sized herdstone but this is bizarre.
Still, I guess all the runic crap is keeping just looking at Morghur from causing people's eyes to bleed, among other things.
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- Location
- Earth
We do know that Runesmiths can control Shard Dragons without Chaos runes.
Could be a variation on that instead of what you claim is the only possibility.
SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
Okay how does the it's just an illusion gibe with Boreks shame?
Read the banner.
NuclearConsensus
Herald of the Thorned One
- Location
- the Philippines
[X] THEORY: Karag Dum is intact, and has a vast illusion of Morghur for protection.
[X] THEORY: Karag Dum has somehow tricked or compelled Morghur to fight the Kurgan tribes.
[X] THEORY: Karag Dum is using a fake Morghur to make the real beastmen fight for them.
[X] ACTION: Attempt to contact the nearby Kurgan tribes for information.
[X] ACTION: Attempt closer examination of Morghur, the beastmen, and the forest.
[X] ACTION: Infiltrate Karag Dum to gather information.
[X] THEORY: Karag Dum has somehow tricked or compelled Morghur to fight the Kurgan tribes.
[X] THEORY: Karag Dum is using a fake Morghur to make the real beastmen fight for them.
[X] ACTION: Attempt to contact the nearby Kurgan tribes for information.
[X] ACTION: Attempt closer examination of Morghur, the beastmen, and the forest.
[X] ACTION: Infiltrate Karag Dum to gather information.
Maybe Cython was right. Maybe the Ancestors are a lot more flexible, and open to adaptation, than conventional wisdom suggests.
"Karag Dum is under an illusion / powerful Runes" doesn't explain why Borek is so ashamed / resigned or why he walked off without an explanation. Clearly there's some shady shenanigans going on.
pucflek
Verified simpleton
- Location
- Czech Republic
I know Mathilde is not stupid, but she will ask if Deathfang has ever seen anything as fucky before right? Because of everyone present, he is the one that had even a chance to ever see something this weird.
The Kurgan believe it's Morghur, and the field is literally littered with their bones. If it isn't Morghur, then what has been killing them?
She'll try, but she's fully expecting him to be mysterious and smug when she does.
[] THEORY: Gor Dum is either a mutated dwarf or controlled by a dwarf, look at how he reacted to Borek.
Also, it seemed to recognise Borek as a kin. Chances are it's someone of his direct family who mutated. The reaction (or lack of there of) of the beastmen in the trees makes me think they might be what becomes of dwarves when they mutate.
I that case, a question would be whether all dwarves mutated or if they sacrificed some of their population (slayers?) to create a new race that would hold back their enemies.
Also, it seemed to recognise Borek as a kin. Chances are it's someone of his direct family who mutated. The reaction (or lack of there of) of the beastmen in the trees makes me think they might be what becomes of dwarves when they mutate.
I that case, a question would be whether all dwarves mutated or if they sacrificed some of their population (slayers?) to create a new race that would hold back their enemies.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Lol at "OMG they bound the most POWERFUL entity in the old world" Morghor isn't even the most powerful Beastman character. Let alone the most powerful being in the Old World.
Even if that is true the Karaz Ankor is not, so unless said Ancestor shows up in person to explain things everyone in Dun is under a death sentence for their actions.
Omegahugger
Inattentive Idiot
So I have a theory on the timeline here.
There are three points that I think are worth keeping in mind:
1: Borek, by all accounts, didn't think that Karak Dum had fallen when he started this expedition.
2: The very second he took a look at it now, he thinks they need forgiveness from the Ancestors.
3: Most crucially, Borek did not seem surprised to see Morghur
I really do like the "Morghur was born into a Karak Dum family, who managed to runically contain his nature" theory. It's a theory that's fully congruent with what we know is possible and it is fits with BoneyM's stated views that anyone can be redeemed. The problem is that it in at of itself doesn't explain why Borek only thinks Karak Dum is beyond saving now, when he clearly has to have known Morghur's existance from before he left it. Something has to have changed between the two points, and we do have to do some finagling -and indeed some blatant guessing and assumptions- to make it fit, but I think it can be done.
So what I think could've happened is this:
Before Karak Dum got swallowed up by the Chaos Wastes, Morghur got killed in Bretonnia and got "reborn" to a family in Karak Dum. Since Dawi are notoriously resistant to mutations, the actual "growth" of Morghur got slowed down enough for Karak Dum's runesmiths (renowned as among the greatest) to be able to develop a way for pre-Morghur to retain his sanity and literal grip on reality as he grew up. This is not inherently different from what the rune of Valaya does, so it is not an impossible feat to imagine. The dwarves of Karak Dum now had a fully sapient and very powerful Beastman living peacefully among them, a fact that they chose to keep secret because let's be honest, the vast majority of Order factions would not believe for a second that this could actually happen.
So now Borek leaves Karak Dum, which notably was still part of a mountain range at this point, to make sure help actually arrived for the oncoming Chaos Storm. Probably with a tearful goodbye from Morghur, because that's how fiction rolls. And the warning was not heeded, Dum got swallowed up, Vlag disappeared, Borek swore vengeance and the rest is history.
Karak Dum then spends somewhere between 20 and 200 years under siege from the Chaos forces, where Morghul naturally participates in defending his home. The scene seems dire and impossible (because it is), and so the Dawi decide to go radical. Using the genius of their runesmiths and bits of ancestral beastmen knowledge stuck in Morghul's mind, they manage to make their waystone appear and/or act like a non-corrupted herdstone. Which is what made the Beastman forest (that Mathilde described as disturbingly familiar, which means it is similar to Imperial forests in some way Mathilde can't explain) appear in the mountains, where a forest of that type wouldn't normally be able to flourish. But since that isn't enough to ward off Chaos forces, I think what they eventually did is rely on Morghur's metaphysical nature as a world-altering demigod to either attract beastmen to their cause or to turn themselves into something beastmen like. Which are obvious enough ideas as last-case solutions that they were probably discussed before Borek left, and that he then recognised on sight once he got here.
I also think this pure herdstone is what caused the desert to appear, by rendering the surrounding landscape "unliveable", but I'll admit that that's the shakiest part of this already shaky theory.
There are three points that I think are worth keeping in mind:
1: Borek, by all accounts, didn't think that Karak Dum had fallen when he started this expedition.
2: The very second he took a look at it now, he thinks they need forgiveness from the Ancestors.
3: Most crucially, Borek did not seem surprised to see Morghur
I really do like the "Morghur was born into a Karak Dum family, who managed to runically contain his nature" theory. It's a theory that's fully congruent with what we know is possible and it is fits with BoneyM's stated views that anyone can be redeemed. The problem is that it in at of itself doesn't explain why Borek only thinks Karak Dum is beyond saving now, when he clearly has to have known Morghur's existance from before he left it. Something has to have changed between the two points, and we do have to do some finagling -and indeed some blatant guessing and assumptions- to make it fit, but I think it can be done.
So what I think could've happened is this:
Before Karak Dum got swallowed up by the Chaos Wastes, Morghur got killed in Bretonnia and got "reborn" to a family in Karak Dum. Since Dawi are notoriously resistant to mutations, the actual "growth" of Morghur got slowed down enough for Karak Dum's runesmiths (renowned as among the greatest) to be able to develop a way for pre-Morghur to retain his sanity and literal grip on reality as he grew up. This is not inherently different from what the rune of Valaya does, so it is not an impossible feat to imagine. The dwarves of Karak Dum now had a fully sapient and very powerful Beastman living peacefully among them, a fact that they chose to keep secret because let's be honest, the vast majority of Order factions would not believe for a second that this could actually happen.
So now Borek leaves Karak Dum, which notably was still part of a mountain range at this point, to make sure help actually arrived for the oncoming Chaos Storm. Probably with a tearful goodbye from Morghur, because that's how fiction rolls. And the warning was not heeded, Dum got swallowed up, Vlag disappeared, Borek swore vengeance and the rest is history.
Karak Dum then spends somewhere between 20 and 200 years under siege from the Chaos forces, where Morghul naturally participates in defending his home. The scene seems dire and impossible (because it is), and so the Dawi decide to go radical. Using the genius of their runesmiths and bits of ancestral beastmen knowledge stuck in Morghul's mind, they manage to make their waystone appear and/or act like a non-corrupted herdstone. Which is what made the Beastman forest (that Mathilde described as disturbingly familiar, which means it is similar to Imperial forests in some way Mathilde can't explain) appear in the mountains, where a forest of that type wouldn't normally be able to flourish. But since that isn't enough to ward off Chaos forces, I think what they eventually did is rely on Morghur's metaphysical nature as a world-altering demigod to either attract beastmen to their cause or to turn themselves into something beastmen like. Which are obvious enough ideas as last-case solutions that they were probably discussed before Borek left, and that he then recognised on sight once he got here.
I also think this pure herdstone is what caused the desert to appear, by rendering the surrounding landscape "unliveable", but I'll admit that that's the shakiest part of this already shaky theory.
You mean like freaking Belegar who was beside himself over what amounted to nothing
A good point I didn't consider, actually. One possible answer is that beastmen bodies do in fact transfer some of the instinctual hate of civilization and civilization's trappings on those transformed. Another is that they are equipped - we've seen silhouettes, not how they actually look, "Morghur" excepting. Third theory is that everyone who transformed made an equivalent of a Slayer Oath, and thus does not wear armour to kill themselves faster.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I suppose it's possible that Morghur was reborn as a Dwarf newborn.
- Location
- Earth
Neither our Light Order guys nor our Celestial are listed to have those spells, but sometimes we don't get all the spells they have.
Now is the time to ask them, if they have those. @BoneyM