Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Honestly, if people want to see the standards for human magic improve, the best way to do that is to arrange for the methods of education to be improved so that lower minimum talent is required to produce a useful graduate thus widening the pool of potential candidates for making discoveries and teaching students.
 
The best way to raise the standard of human magic is to kill every human apprentice and journeyman. The average skill level of human wizards would skyrocket.
 
The best way to raise the standard of human magic is to kill every human apprentice and journeyman. The average skill level of human wizards would skyrocket.
In a way the current system already does a lesser version of that, sending Journeymen out into the world means that many will die preventable deaths but those that survive that crucible are often more competent than they would be if they had undergone a safer education. The Colleges have decided that a fewer number of good Magisters is more desirable than a greater number of merely adequate ones.
 
One thing I'm really feeling is that our trip to Ulthuan is a bigger deal than we realised. I think we really want to get all our ducks in a row first, whether that's higher level skills, learning side skills, learning the rest of the spellbook, etc.

Well our first forays into magic spell creation were highly mathematical, on the other hand it does seem she's diverged over time, but hopefully some of that's still sitting there and will assist when it comes time to work backwards and make the spell learnable by rote.

Well, BoneyM did say:

Yes, Mathilde's personal idiom is very logical and modular, and at least part of that is because her first significant foray into advanced magical theory was the Matrix.

That sounds pretty close to the Sapherian approach

In fact, it also sounds pretty close to what the dwarven approach to Runesmithing may be like as well, so there may be some inspiration to take from the grammar and how arcane Khalazlid is put together.
 
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One thing I'm really feeling is that our trip to Ulthuan is a bigger deal than we realised. I think we really want to get all our ducks in a row first.

Eh... not saying we ought to do it immediately but there's not that many ducks to get in a row. The sword style and some further Battle Magic learning perhaps? Anything beyond that is ultra-rare (Cataclysm spells) or outright new stuff.
 
That sounds pretty close to the Sapherian approach

In fact, it also sounds pretty close to what the dwarven approach to Runesmithing may be like as well, so there may be some inspiration to take from the grammar and how arcane Khalazlid is put together.
It also seems likely to work well with certain multi-wind combinations, particularly Hysh and Chamon. Whether that means spell "translation" like we're looking at with the Hounds, or multi-wind projects in rituals or enchantments is harder to say.
 
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One thing I'm really feeling is that our trip to Ulthuan is a bigger deal than we realised. I think we really want to get all our ducks in a row first.

I think we are already kind of overprepared for the Elfcation, we'd do very well as we are right now. But I certainly wouldn't say no to even more prepping, after all we do want to blow those low Elven Expectations out of the water!
 
Eh... not saying we ought to do it immediately but there's not that many ducks to get in a row. The sword style and some further Battle Magic learning perhaps? Anything beyond that is ultra-rare (Cataclysm spells) or outright new stuff.

Before going, finish the sword style, learn Elven diplomacy basic from the colleges. Make our own battle magic murder spell based on burning shadows and fog.

Also do Tongs that's the one that even the most basic level of success in that action is enough to stop a high mage being able to call Mathilde an apprentice under their schema.
 
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I think we are already kind of overprepared for the Elfcation, we'd do very well as we are right now. But I certainly wouldn't say no to even more prepping, after all we do want to blow those low Elven Expectations out of the water!
I think there's also some merit to selecting one or two things as projects to work on while there? For instance, it makes sense to work on our swordplay if we're dueling dark elves a third of the year, or our stealth/infiltration if we're asked to play the scout or spy. Adding a bit of our experiences with the elves to a skill or two the way we incorporated dwarven tunnel fighting into our sword mastery would be interesting.
 
I think there's also some merit to selecting one or two things as projects to work on while there? For instance, it makes sense to work on our swordplay if we're dueling dark elves a third of the year, or our stealth/infiltration if we're asked to play the scout or spy. Adding a bit of our experiences with the elves to a skill or two the way we incorporated dwarven tunnel fighting into our sword mastery would be interesting.

Shadow Warriors are probably going to be excellent Psychological Warfare teachers, that is one of their hats after all. I expect a point or two in that.
 
Honestly, the thing we should prioritise learning the most whilst on the Elf cation is shadowmagic from the Elves there, their traditional casting method that isn't aiming to turn their mages into high mages likely has a lot of ancillary stuff that wasn't included by Teclis in the college syllabus and I think it would highly desirable to learn as much of that as possible. We should also ofcourse join at least one of the forays or missions into fighting the Dark elves whilst using the protector coin to generate enough favour to return either here or to the elven mainland to try and get insight into magic from other places.

Windherder could potentially be exercised by watching a high mage weave a high magic spell and seeing how that's done. Not because we could mimic it directly but because it will what actual high magic looks like and Mathilde will have a better idea of how to direct other wizards.

The teclisian method which is supposed to lead to High mages treat our state as "End of the apprenticeship" I suspect the Nagarythe spell tradition which is also going to be scientific and thus we should be able to learn from them, they wont treat Magic 7 as the end of magical learning, they presumably have a much wider range of spells and things that could be learnt as well as knowledge of magical lore that is Ulgu adjacent.
 
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Eh... not saying we ought to do it immediately but there's not that many ducks to get in a row. The sword style and some further Battle Magic learning perhaps? Anything beyond that is ultra-rare (Cataclysm spells) or outright new stuff.

I'd want to get our Diplomacy higher but finishing off Bretonnian and Kislev diplomacy, and learn an elven diplomacy skill at the least.

I'd prefer to have bound some Apparitions by that point, and know an Apparition + Mist based battle magic spell. I'd like to have learned Gazul's Lore and Arcane Khazalid, so that we can contrast the knowledge of one elder race with that of another.

THere are some long shots we might want to consider like learning better mathematics, or analytical philosophy/logic, if that exists in the setting, as that might work with Mathilde's magical paradigm in interesting ways.

I think we are already kind of overprepared for the Elfcation, we'd do very well as we are right now. But I certainly wouldn't say no to even more prepping, after all we do want to blow those low Elven Expectations out of the water!

I'd say we're not really that prepared, to be honest, based on what we've learned about unique an opportunity this is.
 
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I'd say we're not really that prepared, to be honest.
I think it's a question of goals. It sounds like you want to come at it like...a person with a doctorate attending a series of lectures just adjacent to their field, while I'm more interested in it as one of the last classes a graduate student takes before writing their thesis. Less a broadening of mastery learned from a specialist, more a part of achieving that mastery by taking advantage of the demonstrations of someone more skilled.
 
Journeymen and Perpetuals can't even access the full spell list though.

Also there's the question of magical prowess: Mathilde has sort of spoiled us in regards to typical expectations for Magisters - she got 7 Magic when she made Magister and then got to got to 8 and then 9 within 3 years. Johann - who is older than us if I remember correctly - has just recently reached a whooping Magic 7. Even Regimand - an accomplished senior magister just doesn't want to deal with Battle Magic beyond the borderline Smoke and Mirrors whilst Mathilde can cast certain BM spells without risk and is currently inventing BM spells.

It seems that going into higher tiers of Magic is really rare and the risks are frontloaded only if one wants to stay in their lane and cap their advancement (for example a Magister that just doesn't learn BM).
Perpetuals - They simply don't have the ability to learn, since a Perpetual is stuck at like, Magic 1 or Magic 2, if they aren't one of those who need magic suppressors to live. Theres nothing keeping an Apprentice's Master from teaching them any spell except their ability to not explode casting said spell.

Journeymen - They don't have free access to the spell list, but a Journeyman can write to their Master for any learning materials, which, if the Journeyman is in good standing or backed by a request from their employer, could be any spell their Master accepts. This is mainly a responsibility thing, a Journeyman isn't tested yet, so their ability to expand their capabilities is gated by the Magister in charge of them.

As for magical ability...your syllabus gives you up to +5 Magic on its own, if you can complete it. And I'd note your spell knowledge could apparently decay if unused. So if you're relying on spells you can't cast reliably to obtain a particular rating you must cast said spells riskily at least infrequently to maintain that rating.

Without traits, from what I recall of the spellbook mechanics:
If you started with Magic 1, you could get to Magic 3 without taking any risks, and you could TOUCH Magic 4 if you lived dangerously with Moderately Complicated spells.

If you had a base of Magic 2, you could get to Magic 4 without taking any risks, but getting to Magic 5 requires taking risks, and the risks will continue until you learn all the Moderately Complicated spells, stabilizing there. You could then learn Fiendishly Complicated spells to get you to Magic 6, but you'd probably decay down to 5 if you don't take some risks regularly. If you DID take some risks you'd eventually either die, cripple your magical ability or pick up the right trait/arcane mark to go to the next bracket.

If you got to a base Magic of 3, you could simply learn the whole spellbook and stabilize at Magic 7, never taking risks at any point.

But, as far as I can tell, most wizards just plain start at Magic 1. Your options are:
-Get a staff - Staves are the product of quite a bit of skill investment and tedious labor. Simply by getting a staff you have the potential to master the basic spellbook given risks. The biggest thing you could probably do for the Colleges Magisterial graduation rate is to have every Journeyman start out with a staff...but theres a lot more graduating Apprentices than Magisters willing to make staves. You don't get the attention of a good staff turner without doing something standout, which usually means something risky.

-Get a Familiar - You get a familiar. You then need to roll the obsession gacha over and over to get the magic boost trait, as well as an external weak point. Its not a bad risk if you're a shut in academic wizard.

-Get the Arcane Mark - Absolutely not safe to get at all. It involves casting a LOT of spells in stressful conditions, without rolling "you asplode". A Journey puts the wizard in a good position to get it.

-Get a +magic Trait - This is rare as hell. It requires taking significant magical risks or natural talent, with no guarantee of the outcome unless you're a Quest Protagonist and had some level of say over what kinds of traits you wind up with. This is what Mathilde got as her breakout skill. A Journey puts a lot of novel stressors to get one.

So presuming there's an average career path at all, I'd expect a 'normal' academic wizard career path to be: Graduate apprenticeship with Magic 2, grind their way up to Magic 4 over their Journey, acquire a staff and familiar at some point and work the familiar until you get +Magic out of it(probably becoming very Obssessed, but its not a big deal for an academic), learn something from the last spell bracket, then pass the Magister exams and settle for a life of squeezing out the minimum publishable unit. They'd never be looking at Battle Magic, but will never be more than "pretty decent" at magic.

What got Mathilde there at this rate was that she had:
-A +magic trait out of her Windsight talents.

Then she got the following after graduating:
-A +magic familiar out of the box, thanks to Ranald.
-A +magic Staff she made herself.
-Finished the spellbook.

Mathilde basically got carried by her Windsight.

E: Noting this is very simplified, you can miscast spells you can cast reliably too, and learning a spell is never entirely safe even if you had the Magic for it. Some people have talents or anti-talents like Johann ensuring they can only get half the spellbook Magic ratings.
If we wanted a typical new Magister, start of expedition Johann was apparently a fairly fresh Magister who spent most of his advancements on Gilding.

E2: Also the Grey College may not be representative since they put a lot of value in nonmagical skills.
 
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I think it's a question of goals. It sounds like you want to come at it like...a person with a doctorate attending a series of lectures just adjacent to their field, while I'm more interested in it as one of the last classes a graduate student takes before writing their thesis. Less a broadening of mastery learned from a specialist, more a part of achieving that mastery by taking advantage of the demonstrations of someone more skilled.

Given what we've learned about magical paradigms, I think that we have to treat it like the first, not the second.

So presuming there's an average career path at all, I'd expect a 'normal' academic wizard career path to be: Graduate apprenticeship with Magic 2, grind their way up to Magic 4 over their Journey, acquire a staff and familiar at some point and work the familiar until you get +Magic out of it(probably becoming very Obssessed, but its not a big deal for an academic), learn something from the last spell bracket, then pass the Magister exams and settle for a life of squeezing out the minimum publishable unit. They'd never be looking at Battle Magic, but will never be more than "pretty decent" at magic.

It depends. D you start from the perspective that every Magister is an exceptional hero of their own story, as that's the only way you graduate from being a Journeyman? If so, the Magisters in the making probably start with Magic 2, and they take lots of risks as Journeymen that get them further along the magic track, which thanks to survivorship bias looks very survivable - because everyone who made it to Magister did it.
 
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My opinion is that if people think we're ready to ride into hell then we're ready to go on the Elf Vacation.

It might be nice to do some other things like diplomacy before we go there. But those are stretch goals. We're not going to the tower of Hoeth. We're going to the the Shadow warriors because of our skill at getting Druchii. That's what they are more likely to care about. We've gotten along with Asarnil (who is the very definition of a prickly elf) and the ambassador with less diplomacy score than we have now.

If we go with all the preparations some people want we'll never go. Because people's stretch goals seem to be "Make Mathilde Volans 2.0 or human Telcis" before we can so much as think of going.
 
Yeah, my impression is that Magic 9 is Good no matter what paradigm you're using, and if you're weaker it's because the other side just has more institutional experience than you do.

Every Magic Paradigm is viable, the Elves are just the best because they have thousands of years of lore behind them and a lifespan that lets them take a long and safe approach to magic. Any of the single Winds taken to their absolute limit is probably inferior to High and Dark magic only in range of applications, and certainly not power is my impression. (And I bet--for instance--a supreme grandmaster of Ulgu at Magic 10 and fully attuned to their Wind to the point of becoming something else is probably going to be better at timespace bullshit than most Archmages for instance)

And the Masteries are how a single wind surpasses the multi-wind conglomerations.

I'd say honestly the only thing barring us from making a big splash in the Elfcation are a bit of shoring up of our diplomacy.
 
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My opinion is that if people think we're ready to ride into hell then we're ready to go on the Elf Vacation.

That doesn't follow because one I don't think we're ready to ride to hell, I want another year of preparation and in the end significant chunks of our prep time ended up being devoted to the fog path spell. It's very useful for the expedition as a whole but does little for Mathilde.

Two the elf vacation has very different goals than the dwarf expedition.


Yeah, my impression is that Magic 9 is Good no matter what paradigm you're using, and if you're weaker it's because the other side just has more institutional experience than you do.

Every Magic Paradigm is viable, the Elves are just the best because they have thousands of years of lore behind them and a lifespan that lets them take a long and safe approach to magic. Any of the single Winds taken to their absolute limit is probably inferior to High and Dark magic only in range of applications, and certainly not power is my impression.

And the Masteries are how a single wind surpasses the multi-wind conglomerations.

I categorically disagree, you're taking what BoneyM said and jumping way to far ahead with it into a position utterly unsupported. The Elven Paradigm means that human magisters can reach greater heights with one wind than a High Mage can with one wind. That high mage is thanks to having literally all possible result space from high magic available able to do what ever we could do but it would take a more complicated spell whilst also having access to every other wind and high magic it's self for the truely insane things.

There's also the fact that High Elves can live for literal thousands of years, essentially the heights that a High mage could be able to reach over time should eclipse anything a human magister will reach because we'll die long before then. Immortality from magic in the empire has literally one example. Elspeth, no one else is known to have been alive for much longer than they should have. Yes wizards live longer in general but what they don't do is ignore ageing.
 
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My opinion is that if people think we're ready to ride into hell then we're ready to go on the Elf Vacation.

It might be nice to do some other things like diplomacy before we go there. But those are stretch goals. We're not going to the tower of Hoeth. We're going to the the Shadow warriors because of our skill at getting Druchii. That's what they are more likely to care about. We've gotten along with Asarnil (who is the very definition of a prickly elf) and the ambassador with less diplomacy score than we have now.

If we go with all the preparations some people want we'll never go. Because people's stretch goals seem to be "Make Mathilde Volans 2.0 or human Telcis" before we can so much as think of going.

We're not at all ready to ride into Hell though...

I don't think these things are stretch goals because the point of the elfcation prep isn't to do the bare minimum we can so the Expedition has a hope in hell of surviving, which is what the preparations for Karak Dum are about. The elfcation prep is so we maximise the (time discounted) benefits we can extract from the trip.
 
That doesn't follow because one I don't think we're ready to ride to hell, I want another year of preparation and in the end significant chunks of our prep time ended up being devoted to the fog path spell. It's very useful for the expedition as a whole but does little for Mathilde.

Two the elf vacation has very different goals than the dwarf expedition.

I think the warning we just got here is that Old World politics are getting spicy, and we really don't want to be in a position where we're out of play when they all come to a head.

Remember, we'd have already been back here by the time this shit kicked off if we had left at the first opportunity, and we would have been able to commit our full focus to this investigation. As it stands, we're stuck with our preliminary findings--plus what our subordinates can figure out in our crash program before we get on our way.

Like, holy hell, the whole point of being recognized as a Lord Magister is a nod that "Yeah, you're a genuine badass on the world scale, not the top tier but enough that the top tier can't just casually disregard you." If a Lord Magister can't play a key role in an expedition not even into the heart of the Chaos Wastes, then how does anyone ever get anything done in this setting? On the spot it immediately says that Dragomas' backstory is bullshit because he'd have evaporated the moment he left the Old World kiddy pool because he'd have run into a random encounter that flattens him.

Except it didn't happen, he left as a Journeyman and came back as a Lord Magister equivilant. Clearly, the world beyond the Old World isn't a level 30 epic campaign setting that just agrees not to casually swallow the Old World as a prank, for fun.

Is Mathilde the strongest in the setting? God no.

Is she however someone that can play ball in the big kids court? Absolutely, almost to a fault because the sheer scale is causing a lot of the fun personal characterization that exemplified the early stages of the story to fall to the wayside in favor of more grand, sweeping gestures. And claiming she isn't is just straight up pushing the 'Humans are garbage and don't amount to anything' memes that Boney just spent a good portion of today trying to refute.
 
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That doesn't follow because one I don't think we're ready to ride to hell, I want another year of preparation and in the end significant chunks of our prep time ended up being devoted to the fog path spell. It's very useful for the expedition as a whole but does little for Mathilde.

Two the elf vacation has very different goals than the dwarf expedition.

It also depends on what you mean by ready. I personally think we are ready to cut and run if things get bad enough. Anything beyond that is up in the air and I'm assuming our visit to Ulthuan seeks more than just living through the experience.
 
I think the warning we just got here is that Old World politics are getting spicy, and we really don't want to be in a position where we're out of play when they all come to a head.

Remember, we'd have already been back here by the time this shit kicked off if we had left at the first opportunity, and we would have been able to commit our full focus to this investigation. As it stands, we're stuck with our preliminary findings--plus what our subordinates can figure out in our crash program before we get on our way.

Like, holy hell, the whole point of being recognized as a Lord Magister is a nod that "Yeah, you're a genuine badass on the world scale, not the top tier but enough that the top tier can't just casually disregard you." If a Lord Magister can't play a key role in an expedition not even into the heart of the Chaos Wastes, then how does anyone ever get anything done in this setting? On the spot it immediately says that Dragomas' backstory is bullshit because he'd have evaporated the moment he left the Old World kiddy pool because he'd have run into a random encounter that flattens him.

Except it didn't happen, he left as a Journeyman and came back as a Lord Magister equivilant. Clearly, the world beyond the Old World isn't a level 30 epic campaign setting that just agrees not to casually swallow the Old World as a prank, for fun.

I don't think a Lord Magister of a College is a genuine badass on the world scale. At all. You're one of the top what, fifty wizards in one of the many countries of the world, one that has one of the youngest formal magical traditions. The top tier should be able to casually disregard you, because while you may be one of the top players of your division, you're still a long way from the Premier league, to use a football analogy.

Also, generally, this is Warhammer. People don't get anything done in this setting if your scale involves doing anything successful in the Chaos Wastes.

And Dragomas came back being able to turn into a spellcasting Emperor dragon. That is actually level 30 epic campaign territory.

Also, Mathilde isn't the one Grey Wizard in all the world. She can go off to Karak Dum secure in the knowledge that the rest of the College has this. She doesn't need to do everything in the world personally.
 
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Remember, we'd have already been back here by the time this shit kicked off if we had left at the first opportunity, and we would have been able to commit our full focus to this investigation. As it stands, we're stuck with our preliminary findings--plus what our subordinates can figure out in our crash program before we get on our way.
And right after we blew through the college favor we might have used to pull someone to investigate, too. Honestly, "a Lord Magister pulled some strings to get Grey eyes on the investigation of an attack on a Dwarf ship, dropped some clues into your lap, then ran off to explode daemons or something" sounds like such a great staring point for a Grey Wizard quest that I'm disappointed not to get to set it up.
 
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I don't think a Lord Magister of a College is a genuine badass on the world scale. At all. You're one of the top what, fifty wizards in one of the many countries of the world, one that has one of the youngest formal magical traditions. The top tier should be able to casually disregard you, because while you may be one of the top players of your division, you're still a long way from the Premier league, to use a football analogy.

Also, generally, this is Warhammer. People don't get anything done in this setting if your scale involves doing anything successful in the Chaos Wastes.

I mean here's Mathilde herself on the subject of expedition success:

"Do you think it will succeed?"

"Succeed," you muse. "I think it'll find out what happened. I think that if it's necessary, I can make the Expedition turn around. And I think that in the worst case scenario, I can make it home."

If we are somehow actually wildly successful that can be a sign she is moving up in the world.
 
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