Everyone has a unique interpretation of Magesight. Through Illusion you can share what your magesight looks like to you. It doesn't particularly matter WHO the intermediary is, as long as their brains are safe for Ulgu to jack into to load the illusion rendering palette, the important part is establishing a common point of reference.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
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- warhammer warhammer fantasy fantasy be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist pansexual protagonist ck2 quest divided loyalties mountain vietnam ranald is real this is a dwarf quest (dwarfs) this is maybe an elf quest this is not a vampire quest this is not an empire quest try it and find out open voting
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
It's an enchantment if it relies on people being there to manually make adjustments to it. It's probably a ritual if it updates in real time. An enchantment might be able to detect changes and update the map, but you'd have to both have a method of sensing the changes and understanding what it's sensing and how to apply that to the map, at which point you're looking at an intelligent enchantment which is the territory of Bad Things.
I'm pretty sure the enchantment version of this relies on having dwarves turning knobs and pressing buttons to update it. Which is fine! A perfectly respectable outcome. But a ritual would do it better, if at greater expense.
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King Arthur
The Once and Future King
The Keys to Death Mountain.
They only work because each race has their own magical signature distinct from each other, and magic can be specifically set to target that signature and only that signature.
So, the radar pings if it hits a Green Skin or Skaven, but it won't go off for a loose goat or a boulder or whatever, and it just syncs the spot where it pinged Skaven on the map.
- Location
- Chicago
- Pronouns
- She/They
Because radar and sonar both depend heavily on bring wave-forms, with the math required to manipulate waves and extract information from them bring well understood, to us at least. Magic seems to function on a different set of metaphors and behaviors, so it sounds kinda like trying to make a radar that send out puffs of smoke and displays images based on the smoke that returns to it: unlikely to get you anything but a crude image of the wind current immediately around your device.
I don't think there is a 'sensor' spell of any kind that doesn't function off a semi-physical tripwire, like Alarm. And that even returns info to the caster among the connection of sympathetic magic, rather than physical location. (As best I can tell from the discussion of the way the alarm spell worked when we raided out first mound.)
I'm betting it's going to be more that each intermediary produces a different display schema, rather than only being able to support a user with a display schema close enough to the original creator. Could be wrong though.
- Location
- Brazil
Why would we ever try and cover the entirety of K8P with a single, massively complex self-sustaining spell when we could simply place a bunch of magical sensors or what have you that ping the projection on the map room when non-dwarf non-human creatures pass them by?
MAP is perfectly capable of rendering whatever we want. Projecting a globe doesn't require you to cast a spell that covers the planet, why would projecting the Karak require a spell that covers the Karak? It's a hologram.
MAP is perfectly capable of rendering whatever we want. Projecting a globe doesn't require you to cast a spell that covers the planet, why would projecting the Karak require a spell that covers the Karak? It's a hologram.
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- Location
- Utrecht
We don't have the kind of mass enchantment such a thing would require.
- Location
- Chicago
- Pronouns
- She/They
Again, because magical sensors and 'pings' are purely theoretical at this point, so assuming them dodged one of the actual hard parts of doing the spell.
SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
That's not what he's saying to do.
You make lots of little sensors, that feed the information to a master device that can understand what the little sensors send. You don't make one massive magical enchantment.
Well, that may be true and so we need to research the topic and find out. This also has implication for the seviroscope, if you can't do a sensor you can't do a seviroscope.
- Location
- Brazil
Then get better at enchanting. Risking blowing ourselves up because we are too lazy to crank out a hundred petty magic sensors is absurd.
King Arthur
The Once and Future King
That's exactly what College Favor is for.
chocolote12
A Penguin Flailing Against The Keyboard Of Life.
I'm describing a spell from the Approved Spells list.
Also, is anybody super frustrated at the 'your message is mostly quotes or spoilers' thread friction thing? Because it's not enough that your post meets the minimum requirements, the stuff you're quoting also isn't allowed to be too large.
Edit for clarity:
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Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
That... is very confusing. Like, what exactly is the full process here that requires a person? As far as I can tell, the Seviroscope is detecting magic, routes said information through a person's brain, and then casts an illusion spell based on the information? Why wouldn't we just cast an illusion spell ourselves? I still don't see what the other person is doing there unless They're the ones casting Illusion, which would require a Grey Wizard who knows that spell.
I... I'm just very confused as to what, exactly, you're proposing, and how it gets past the problems we're already facing.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
Across the entirety of Karak Eight Peaks if you wanted any kind of fidelity it would need to be in the tens of thousands at the very least.
"Routing said information through a person's brain" is an explicit failure state, because Kragg is a dwarf and can't have magic running through his head. The entire point of the project is to avoid that very outcome, or we'd just slap an enchantment of Windsight on something.
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- Location
- Brazil
Depends on how capable they are. Regardless, as a Karak project we can draw upon College resources as much as we need to.
The actual construction and installation could be dead simple. Hell, we could even run some wind-conductive materials inside the walls, sealing it with the most basic rock-melding rune we've seen used before in the construction of our towers. That removes the need for wirelessness, and it's all grunt-work.
- Location
- Utrecht
That's not what i said either. By mass enchantments, i was referring to the possibility of mass produced enchanted items. Enchantments with the winds, even petty enchantments are not consistent. Deterministic enchantments is the domain of runes.
- Location
- Brazil
As long as they roughly work the same way, then that's fine. We are not talking any extravagant effect here.
And again, depending on how capable we make them, we could need a few as eight or nine.
King Arthur
The Once and Future King
Take a moment to think about how hard we've avoided Battle Magic. We've literally never voted to learn or use it.
Rituals are more dangerous, trickier and harder to do, and we'd probably have to design them ourselves from scratch which is a real pain to do.
I'm not saying never do rituals, just that a ritual should be the absolute last resort, if we can get by with enchantment we should do so even if it's more work, just like we've always gone into active warzones without Battle Magic, because it might be more work but it's also a lot safer.
Rituals are more dangerous, trickier and harder to do, and we'd probably have to design them ourselves from scratch which is a real pain to do.
I'm not saying never do rituals, just that a ritual should be the absolute last resort, if we can get by with enchantment we should do so even if it's more work, just like we've always gone into active warzones without Battle Magic, because it might be more work but it's also a lot safer.
Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
That's part of what I'm having trouble understanding, because it sounds like that's exactly what's being proposed, except also using said person to somehow cast Illusion? It just doesn't make sense. Anything that needs an operator doesn't make sense because it runs into the same issue of communicating things to the runesmith, and if it were as simple as casting an illusion, we would have done that. To be honest, I have no clue how a Seviroscope would even work, but this probably isn't it. Hell, if I didn't have faith that Boney wouldn't give us such a massive prompt and mystery as Bok while making him impossible to figure out, I would probably give up on the whole thing.
That or I am just tired and having brain difficulties at the moment. One or the other.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
We have no idea if all rituals are more dangerous than Battle Magic. The fact that one of our ducklings (Gretel or Adela, I forget which) has learnt about rituals and actually has ritual implements in her abode would strongly suggest that the Colleges think it's not nearly as dangerous, or she wouldn't be allowed.
EDIT: Designing a ritual might be, but we won't know until we take the class.
Oh sure, @veekie is barking up the wrong tree entirely. IIRC we've been told we can't use Illusions for the Seviroscope for exactly that reason.
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Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
So I'm not going insane. That's good. Really, this is why I think we should probably learn Arcane Khazalid, to see if we can't just recognize and identify these Runes. It makes a little more sense than trying to translate utterly unique magical senses and the understanding of how they work to a person with completely different senses without actively touching their mind. That's like trying to describe color and sound to a blind, deaf man by poking them in a particular pattern.
- Location
- New Brunswick, NJ
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Nope, there's no word of boney on this. Believe me, I've checked. @Redshirt Army made a post where he theorized that Illusion wouldn't work because it interfaced with viewers' brainmeats, but the QM has not weighed in on this.
My personal belief is that Redshirt is mistaken, because otherwise a whole host of things which we know use Illusion and do work more or less "objectively" (moving the sun for the Eye of Gazul, enchanting guns to be silent and lack muzzle flash) wouldn't work the way they do.
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Uh, we haven't been told that at all. Its an unexplored avenue which requires translating one subjective information source to another one without a common language.
The first step is a full blown research action to point-by-point perform a comparison of what a keen magesight can pick out vs what a keen runesmith picks out. Followed by comparing what wizards and runesmiths differ from their own colleagues to pin down individual variations.
The actual enchanting itself is quite a ways down, the Illusion is just the 'easy' part(so much as a Fiendishly complicated spel lcan be said to be easy), to create a research tool that the first step can use - Mathilde could make an Illusion of her own Windsight, but she has no points of reference for anyone else's windsight, and the pool of people who can both cast Illusion and are willing and able to do it for her for this research is very slim.
An item which allows any Ulgu mage to pipe their magesight to the Illusion would be a start, but merely a start.
Actually making a sevirscope requires designing and constructing the magical equivalent of a charge-coupled device to observe and translate observations to readings. You need something which can be contained, and which reacts to magical forces uniquely, and then to capture those reactions and translate them mechanically into an information display.
- Location
- Chicago
- Pronouns
- She/They
Ah! I think I get it. The point is to display winds in a way that allows dwarves to see them. The other person is a combination of sensor and translator, to see the winds and convert them into a MMAP so they can be referenced by third parties. The scope would be to do it automatically, either removing the need to cast and update a MMAP while concentrating on windsight, or an attempt to automate the detection and translation process as well as the MMAP projection.
If we need a person or if it can be automated is, I assume, where the disagreement is.