Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
But until we can demonstrate an artificial soul of some sort, a seiverscope it's going to need a person in it.

Agreed. That's why I'm pushing the idea of pairing a wizard and runesmith and trying to get a runelord to produce a Rune of Brotherhood based item that works on the two of them to allow the Runesmith to pick up what the wizard sees.

No, I doubt a Rune of Brotherhood alone is enough, hence it being a combo Wind magic and Runic item.

As an aside, I think we should get the Wind runes and AV courses done soon. I'm vaguely curious what a runesmith could do with an item containing Power Stones and Wind runes.
 
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Regarding the Seviroscope:
The tricky part is translating the magical environment to raw data that an unthinking enchantment can handle, not translating raw data to a visual form.
Given that Illusion is capable of silencing firearms, and the only restriction I see in the spellbook in-thread is that it can't actually make anything physical, it looks like the tricky bit is creating something that will do the parsing of sensor data.

In other words, for the simplest form of automated Seviroscope, it would be an entire room, hopefully relatively isolated from outside Winds, with sensors all around, going to an enchantment which analyzes the information the sensors are picking up (this is the tricky bit), and then sends that to a device which uses either MAP or Illusion to display it in a (presumably visual) format.
 
We could easily write a paper on this conversation. So easily.

Skaven Numeral Psychology maybe?

Just write down exactly what he said here, word for word, and then analyze the War of K8P using this as a lens.

This is huge.
Do you want to send more wizards to Frederheim while trying to figure out how things explode after the number six? Because that's how wizards get sent to Frederheim.
 
Do you want to send more wizards to Frederheim while trying to figure out how things explode after the number six? Because that's how wizards get sent to Frederheim.
This is very valuable information that, more then just a report on tactics in the conventional sense, will help us figure out what they will do, how they will react, and why in certain situation.

This is especially relevant when it comes to the Dawi as their existence is basically "I have Skaven there, Greenskins there, sometimes more enemy factions there, and we are all in one giant stalemate" and this is the exact sort of information that will help them develop an awareness of how the Skaven will react as those situations develop.

When the main front of warfare against the Skaven is almost completely dictated by multiple factions fighting against other, knowledge of how Skaven navigate and think of those situations from a first hand source is one of the most valuable things in the world.
 
I want to re-emphasize the idea of a perpetual, because I suspect that it is quite possible to find someone with amazing mage sight but almost no control over the winds. As Johann might appreciate, this is an important job that only needs about 1/3 of a wizard to be the best in the world. ;)

That's the kind of thing I'd expect to be covered in Winning the War Below, 2483.

Put it on the book jacket.
 
Anything that requires a human component is out for me. It's an easy shortcut in a lot of ways, but it allows for human subjectivity, which prevents the real goal of establishing a comprehensible and consistent method of understanding the winds without being able to see them yourself. Human wizards can already be trained to see this stuff; the point is to let Dwarves do something consistently without having to include 'ask a human that'll only be useful for the next forty years to help you out' as a step.

Including humans is fine when the occasion is 'we need a giant monster to cage match another giant monster' and the selection criteria is 'the guts to cage match a giant monster as another giant monster', but not so much when the occasion is every-day lab work and the selection criteria is magical talent.
 
My personal suspicion is that we'll have less interference with runepriest's inherent antimagic if we use the MMA(P)P and translate everything into visuals rather than Illusion and engage all senses, but that is purely supposition. But that's one of the reasons I've been interested in Dwarf Antiquarian Sevir books, which might help us get a better understanding of how dwarves perceive and interact with the Winds of Magic.
We actually know a decent amount on how dwarfs perceive and interact with Winds - part of it from fluff descriptions of assorted towers (the key part is the bit about Thorek considering repelling everything but Ulgu a useful mental exercise for his apprentices), but the big insight is from the Waaagh and Peace lectures where it's mentioned that Runesmiths perceive magic as pulses/presure on their Valaya-granted magic repelling blessing.

That tells me that while Mathilde interprets her Windsight visually (so would find turning it into visual representation easier), dwarfs are far more likely to react better to auditory information - because sound would be a much closer fit to their current pattern.

The bit about Thorek considering selective repelling is actually pretty important, because thinking on that really clicked for me when I watched the video on the Fourier transformation posted last page - it's applicability to picking specific frequencies out of a blob of intensity variations from competing patterns is pretty much exactly how dwarfs (who can only directly perceive the relative intensity of the force on their protection from magic) would pick out different types of magic.

This probably also explains why Thorek's senses are poorer - because the dwarf method best works for measuring absolute amounts of magic, can be applied to detecting different types of magic (if well educated and good with mental math), but runs into the rough equivalent of the Heisenberg Uncertainty principle when trying to figure out what magic is behaving when in it's normal state because they can't observe the magic without disrupting it by interacting with it.
 
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We need to invent a device that applies fourier transform to winds of magic and runes... and displays the graphs with a MAP....

And then write a book to translate what those readings mean :)
 
We actually know a decent amount on how dwarfs perceive and interact with Winds - part of it from fluff descriptions of assorted towers (the key part is the bit about Thorek considering repelling everything but Ulgu a useful mental exercise for his apprentices), but the big insight is from the Waaagh and Peace lectures where it's mentioned that Runesmiths perceive magic as pulses/presure on their Valaya-granted magic repelling blessing.

That tells me that while Mathilde interprets her Windsight visually (so would find turning it into visual representation easier), dwarfs are far more likely to react better to auditory information - because sound would be a much closer fit to their current pattern.

The bit about Thorek considering selective repelling is actually pretty important, because thinking on that really clicked for me when I watched the video on the Fourier transformation posted last page - it's applicability to picking specific frequencies out of a blob of intensity variations from competing patterns is pretty much exactly how dwarfs (who can only directly perceive the relative intensity of the force on their protection from magic) would pick out different types of magic.

This probably also explains why Thorek's senses are poorer - because the dwarf method best works for measuring absolute amounts of magic, can be applied to detecting different types of magic (if well educated and good with mental math), but runs into the rough equivalent of the Heisenberg Uncertainty principle when trying to figure out what magic is behaving when in it's normal state because they can't observe the magic without disrupting it by interacting with it.
Given that we can't know how they interpret it specifically though, I think we'd be better off sticking with visual representations. Both for ease of enchanting what's already a tricky task, but also to avoid tripping them up with something similar-but-different. Unless we somehow got the notes/frequencies exactly the same, it'd probably be a detriment, not an aid.

Also, vision is just better at showing this sort of thing.
 
Given that we can't know how they interpret it specifically though, I think we'd be better off sticking with visual representations. Both for ease of enchanting what's already a tricky task, but also to avoid tripping them up with something similar-but-different. Unless we somehow got the notes/frequencies exactly the same, it'd probably be a detriment, not an aid.

Also, vision is just better at showing this sort of thing.
Hm.

While visual information should be both sufficient and most efficient for the arcane side of things, the partially or fully divine side, which we do not necessarily perceive visually, could potentially be represented through sound. Sound provides a number of variables that can be tweaked and is quite easy to produce magically, and different sorts of vibrations in the air can be overlayed with a visual projection of the arcane side of things without either getting in the way of the other.
 
Anything that requires a human component is out for me. It's an easy shortcut in a lot of ways, but it allows for human subjectivity, which prevents the real goal of establishing a comprehensible and consistent method of understanding the winds without being able to see them yourself. Human wizards can already be trained to see this stuff; the point is to let Dwarves do something consistently without having to include 'ask a human that'll only be useful for the next forty years to help you out' as a step.

Including humans is fine when the occasion is 'we need a giant monster to cage match another giant monster' and the selection criteria is 'the guts to cage match a giant monster as another giant monster', but not so much when the occasion is every-day lab work and the selection criteria is magical talent.

Including a human component is better than fine. It's a significant advantage, as it binds the runesmiths closer to Colleges. It ensures that there will be continual ongoing collaboration between them, and ensures they'll be part of the investigation of Bok.

Subjectivity is an inherent part of what what Windsight is, because it's part of what the WInds are. It is inherently impossible to come up with a comprehensive and consistent method of understanding the Winds, as it's all partially in the eye of the beholder.

We want dwarven runesmiths to be able to see as wizards do, so that they can access alternative perspectives. If we do it properly, runesmiths could collaborate with different wizards to get multiple perspectives. Wizards could also use it to better understand what other wizards see in and of the Winds.
Hmm, based on the Sevirscope speculation so far, I'll agree with @picklepikkl that buying higher quality Dwarf literature on Sevir would be helpful for the project. I wonder if math books would be helpful too, for this sort of thing?

I think learning Arcane Dwarf so we understand more about how dwarves conceptualise and describe magic would be incredibly useful.
 
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The Seviriscope will have the same 'point of view' as its creator. It's not an actual observer, but it'll be created to emulate the senses of one, and while those senses will be inherently biased by our own understanding and preconceptions they will at least be internally consistent; an input is detected, an output is presented.

If you communicate an internally consistent view of an inherently inconsistent thing then that's going to be weird, but the neat thing about points of view is that they're infectious; if you train to view the winds by using the Seviriscope, you're going to see things the same way as it presented them. Imagine every time somebody walked through a doorway they had the same train of thought. Even if they use that baseline for entirely different things, it's still a common touch point for the student's understanding of the winds, which would bind the institution's various understandings of the warp far closer together than this current branching understanding passed down from master to apprentice.

If all that fails, I'm not actually opposed to trying to get daemons involved in this. They're not reliable as a demographic, but they're not all chaos-tainted either, and we just need to offer a sufficient incentive for cooperation. The Magi of Araby manage just fine with their Djinn.
 
You know reading trough all this Seviroscope disscussion I am surprised no one brought up how having an actual mind would be a failure state because to use it it would require a Runelord to trust said mind with their research, to trust it with the insighs on Runelore it would inevitably gather during use. And as far as I am aware the number of potential candidates for such possition is extremely limited.
 
Hmm, based on the Sevirscope speculation so far, I'll agree with @picklepikkl that buying higher quality Dwarf literature on Sevir would be helpful for the project. I wonder if math books would be helpful too, for this sort of thing?

We already have Dwarven books on Sevir, but we lack any books on mathematics. Given how important math can be for certain magics and enchantments, we'll probably benefit from +Math sooner or later even if neither the Sevirscope or MMAPP projects require it.

And on that topic, I think the MMAPP project would benefit from some introductory texts into cartography. Given we want to make a permanent and accurate map.
 
I'm gonna be honest, between Theurgy, Ulgu Tongs, Power Stones, and then AV (we know that studying the coin will give us insight into AV, and studying the coin is step one into Theurgy) ... sevirscope's are pretty low on my research list interest levels.

Edit: Also MMAP's .
 
The Seviriscope will have the same 'point of view' as its creator. It's not an actual observer, but it'll be created to emulate the senses of one, and while those senses will be inherently biased by our own understanding and preconceptions they will at least be internally consistent; an input is detected, an output is presented.

If you communicate an internally consistent view of an inherently inconsistent thing then that's going to be weird, but the neat thing about points of view is that they're infectious; if you train to view the winds by using the Seviriscope, you're going to see things the same way as it presented them. Imagine every time somebody walked through a doorway they had the same train of thought. Even if they use that baseline for entirely different things, it's still a common touch point for the student's understanding of the winds, which would bind the institution's various understandings of the warp far closer together than this current branching understanding passed down from master to apprentice.

If all that fails, I'm not actually opposed to trying to get daemons involved in this. They're not reliable as a demographic, but they're not all chaos-tainted either, and we just need to offer a sufficient incentive for cooperation. The Magi of Araby manage just fine with their Djinn.
I think the colleges of magic would disagree much more vehemently, but granted, maybe we could do something similar to Araby. They did have that one mage show up to Mathilde's seminar.

But I don't really think that line of research is viable without actually going and establishing connections in Araby. We'd be starting from scratch otherwise. A djinn route isn't impossible, I don't think, but would be an absolutely massive time sink. That sounds like something that would consume the quest.
 
Would enchanting our guns with silence actually succeed in making them not make sound when shooting?

Technically yes, but not in a way that you'd want; it would most likely just straight up stop the gun from shooting if I understand how this works correctly.

5. 6 for an unarmed personal transport, 8 for armed, 16 for gyrocarriage.

I had thought that we could purchase a gyrocopter straight up. Was I mistaken?

Does that make it actually silent or just give it the illusion of silence?

If someone fires a gun and no one hears it, does it make a sound?

Will someone operating a silenced cannon eventually go deaf without ear protection?

Next project; work with the runesmiths to combine a rune of disguise with Illusion to hide cannons unlikely places and delight the Rangers.

If I recall correctly there's a one-in-twelve chance on the tabletop that your miscast results in the spell being cast with Irresistable Force, with some minor side-effects like having the spell permanently burned out of your skull.

*sidelong glance at our belt*
Burned out of your skull, huh?

I know we decided on the Dragon Altar, and I don't even necessarily disagree with that ... but should we maybe grab an Anti-Air tower anyway?

You know, if for no other reason then to prevent the first move of an enemy force being to fly directly to our tower and try to destroy it, which I think is pretty well within the realm of possibility.

I'm all for this, and if you're going anti-air I don't see a better option than Blue towers. Also combines well with Hubert deciding he wants to wizard up and be a Wizard of the Eight Peaks.

We have seen it with a Greenskin Shaman.
He just lost the spell and had some fierce headaches, no literally melted brain.

I'm reluctant to take greenskins as much of a metric for how humans would handle it. Besides, I don't think he survived that battle.

That depends on which miscast table you're using. Boney is more using effects in line with the one from the RPG I believe.

We've also been using magic that came from the RPG and the nature of magic seems to become wilder and more destructive when you hit battle magic, so I'm entirely willing to believe he'd switch over to using, or at least borrowing from, the other table if we started throwing around that sort of heavy magic.

Yeah, from reading the thread this turn, I think most people want to use the tower construction on a "standard" AA option, and the main disagreement I've seen is whether it should be Azyr (and hook into the Blue Tower) or Ulgu (and hook into the Grey Tower and any eventual battery that we put there).

I vote blue tower. Grey has its utility, but if you want dedicated anti-air why not go for Lore of the Heavens? It won't be super-duper useful against an Emperor Dragon, but that's not faulting it as few things are. As I've said before, three towers for wind, lightning and divination, plus whatever madness the runesmiths keep in their own bag of crazy. It'd do a hell of a job shutting down the skies above and beyond what the K8P airforce does.

I'm not opposed to getting the Grey Tower battery, but I see that as a general utility upgrade more than an answer to our specific problem.


Hmm... I wonder if there might a ritual to draw winds out of objects, or if it's possible to design one? Something that creates a sort of 'wind vacuum', for lack of a better term? Because while we know that regular magic can't fix the Chamon issue with Johann's eyes, it strikes me that it might be possible to design a ritual which can.

I'm kind of curious how the Colleges make banners that have the Magic Resist quality. I'm guessing that 'suck all the magic out' is one meth

The Dwarves can personally attest to this.

"Hey, remember when you boiled the dirt of the caldera?"
*Thorek scowls harder*

I'm still not sure anyone had put forwards a workable strategy for building a seiverscope, or other wind-displaying item. My understanding is that much like a language translator, there needs to be a working mind in between the information coming in and the display, since magic has way more going on than a five-dimensional (3d plus time plus color) representation can contain?

And doing that without pushing magic into the user's head is going to be either very tricky, require a perpetual assigned to support, or use a demon.

My understanding is that, while not confirmed, one leading possibility is to filter the zhuf effect through the Rune of Brotherhood so the magic going in is okay for dwarf brainmeats.

One of the thing that makes the Sevirscope project seem so difficult is that people have generally envisioned it taking the form of a pair of enchanted glasses, but we don't need to rely on an item that small. An entire Tower dedicated to displaying the magical content of its interior on a dedicated display would count as a decent success for the purposes of things like Bok, and an Altar-sized item with an attached display of some kind would work for most any purpose. This doesn't actually solve the two problems you put forward, but it does give us more physical and magical space to work around them.

I mean, building a tower that's built to be specialized for reverse-engineering magic items sounds attractive, but other than 'bring the runesmiths in on it' what difference would it be from the magical clean room we already have?

Why not just develop the Ulgu-based physical and spiritual Radar spells (one for detection obstructions, one for detecting anything capable of feeling confusion), and have them return the information to a MMAP room instead of our brain? It'd even be a mono-wind enchantment.

We'd need to research two different kinds of spells, and probably make the enchantments interact in a friendly fashion, so that might be a complication. At the least it'd be something we can't immediately get started on, I think.

Also I wonder if we could get rune-based monitoring systems added in during the construction.
We do have a waagh related trait... have we ever spitballed waagh affecting Ulgu spells? Hmm. Not according to the spell list.

@BoneyM: would a spell that hides an orc from the waagh field be doable? Or something that messes with the greenskins ability to sense the Waagh? Maybe have a Universal confusion effect propagate along the Waagh field? (I.e. effectively increasing it's range and area... but only against Greenskins)

Trying to think of something to top Waaagh and Peace

Now there's an idea. Have something like a Tyranid synapse effect, but instead of boosting the capabilities of Creatures of Waaagh it degrades them, either robbing their valor, weakening their arm or sapping their resolve. Maybe make it a battle altar item that enhances dispelling attempts specifically vs Waaagh-based spellcasting (using insights we learned from the Waaaghbane trait), but with an ambient aura consistent with, say, Melkoth's Mystifying Miasma that propagates through the Waaagh?

I can only imagine what runesmiths would think if we invited them to help with this project. "Well obviously we have to include a grudge rune [orcs], but how would that work?"
 
We'd need to research two different kinds of spells, and probably make the enchantments interact in a friendly fashion, so that might be a complication. At the least it'd be something we can't immediately get started on, I think.

Also I wonder if we could get rune-based monitoring systems added in during the construction.
It's one action to develop the sentience detection spell, two if we want to goldplate and go for the spell to detect physical things. Working them into an actual MMAP room array or whatever is its own project, but all the components are available right now.

We also know that we can vote for contingency actions (going for both an immediate action and an action that has the other as a prerequisite), so if we went all in (and weren't punished for our hubris :V ) we could theoretically get it done in a single hyperfocused turn.
 
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'opens mouth about the possibility of inforcing the illusion of death so hard they die'.... 'closes mouth as this would only lead to a big fat no from boney'.
This is exactly how Okkam's Mindrazor works.



Instead of spending Favor on a gun to make it hold a spell that's a peer to, or comparable to, Shadow Knives we should just cast Shadow Knives instead. It just seems... yeah. Wasteful.
Just to build on this, but I think there's one solid reason to get a Shadow Knives single-shot gun despite the advantages of the spell: range. If you've got a particularly long-ranged weapon, like an Araby jezzail or a Hochland long rifle, that's when it'd be worth it, because then you'd be outranging the vanilla spell.

I actually disagree here - both in that I don't think we know that'd cost 15 favour, and that we have so much Dwarf/Runesmith favour we're unlikely to ever run out. No comment on the rest of the post.
In the Dwarf Rep spoiler near the bottom, you'll see the prices for gun runing is 5/10/15, with the difference being 1 rune, 2 runes, and 3 runes. Only the most simple runes can be used on gun runes, so no master runes. The only non-master rune that increases Initiative is the Rune of Speed, which increases Initiative by 1 per rune. It'd be 5 favours for one Rune of Speed, 10 favours for two, 15 favours for 3. As for dwarf/runesmith favour, I think you're wrong. I highly doubt we'll get that much runesmith favour. As for dwarf favour, we only have 46. Spending 15 favours on a quick draw gun would wipe out a third of our dwarf favour right out, so you really can't be talking about dwarf favour being functionally bottomless.

I haven't been able to find a list of rituals online, and I'll note that we don't know any in the quest because we haven't made any attempt to learn about rituals and what might be available. But I would be extremely surprised if they were somehow less impressive than regular spells despite the long casting time and potentially expensive reagents - if nothing else, Boney wouldn't let them be.
These are all the rituals a grey wizard can do.

The grandiosely-named ritual unfortunately does not summon a dragon. It just causes an earthquake that destroys all buildings in an area the size of a small town.

Messes with a lineage's fertility. Useless to us.


Makes someone dance until they die. Just shoot them with a bullet.


Makes an oathbreaker complete their oath. I can't imagine a scenario that's so likely and important it'd be worth learning this ritual just in case.


Makes the army march any unbarred place across the world over land unharmed in a single night. I could actually imagine how this spell could be useful, but other skills and other spells that cost AP to learn are even more useful.

We could easily write a paper on this conversation. So easily.

Skaven Numeral Psychology maybe?

Just write down exactly what he said here, word for word, and then analyze the War of K8P using this as a lens.

This is huge.
Pretty sure we already put this info in Winning the War Below.
 
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We've also been using magic that came from the RPG and the nature of magic seems to become wilder and more destructive when you hit battle magic, so I'm entirely willing to believe he'd switch over to using, or at least borrowing from, the other table if we started throwing around that sort of heavy magic.
Eh, I doubt it. Those tables work fine for a game, but a lot of the results are uninteresting. Most of them are just explosions of various sizes and one or two don't even do that. Sure, they're more immediately dangerous, but they don't match the tone that the RPG went with, or the Quest has.
 
This is exactly how Okkam's Mindrazor works.

Incidentally, if we learn all seven battle magic spells, rules-wise that makes us a Loremaster like Gelt. If we can get the collegiate rooms of Oh Dear to practice in I wouldn't mind making a consistent 'go to train there' roll until we're full up on battle magic.

Just to build on this, but I think there's one solid reason to get a Shadow Knives single-shot gun despite the advantages of the spell: range. If you've got a particularly long-ranged weapon, like an Araby jezzail or a Hochland long rifle, that's when it'd be worth it, because then you'd be outranging the vanilla spell.

I'm wondering how we could improve K8P's offensive capability, and I find myself wondering about getting a...not sure what the term would be. A battery? of halflings armed with sniper rifles fit to pick off VIPs working from concealed sniper nests all along the outer mountains, winnowing out things like orc bosses and shamans.
 
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