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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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veekie said:
Hardly. The best sources aren't the only sources and neither the Empire nor Bretonnia has any control over this other than banning the export of timbers entirely, they change hands multiple times routinely.
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That sort of timber is, or should be, a strategic military resource for any power with naval concerns. I would be surprised if they don't have people at least trying to monitor movement of timber suitable for masts and keels.

Another thought I had, was that the option to finance the Empire actually positions Barak Varr better in the long run, because it gets the Empire used to not shipping through Marienburg. So, once the canal is ready, more people will be ready to ship southward.

That said, there's a much higher likelihood of Marienburg ending up with a major Grudge against it than with the blockade-breaking option, I would think.
 
I am never a fan of the "Deity X is super secretly this Chaos deity in disguise" theories. All it does is serve to make the world seems smaller and more boring. The very last thing Warhammer as a setting needs is more Chaos.

It also ... doesn't particularly make sense? If the Chaos Dwarves are willing to worship a Daemon ... Tzeentch wouldn't have to make up a fake alter ego as a fake deity Hashut, Tzeentch could just show up and earn their loyalty in the same way.

Similarly, if the Great Horned One was Nurgle ... don't you think the Skaven would act a little more like a typical Nurgle follower? Like, ever?
 
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veekie said:
With more economic clarity it goes like this:
-Marienburg relies more on trade for income than the Empire does. A Blockade would hurt them more on a losses per day basis.

-Marienburg has less compulsory expenses than tha Empire. They don't maintain a standing army, they hire mercenaries, they can instantly drawdown their military expenses to a far greater extent than an Empire which must maintain standing garrison forces.

-By being the ones threatening the Blockade, you can assume the top ten families on the council that decided this have already ensured they and their allies have the personal wealth to weather a potential blockade for a time. By contrast the Empire's ruling class would not be prepared for losing access to silks and spices and would tend to want to capitulate.

-Note that this does not kill any other trade.
--The Empire's riverine trade is thriving regardless, its large enough. What they really lose is on the exotic goods trade which is the most lucrative tax wise. For food and metal they have internal sources along river routes which are better than buying oceanic cargo...however, prices will rise because these items are as cheap as they are because Marienburg provides competitive prices, in the absence of competition expect domestic traders to take a me-first mentality for price fixing.
--Marienburg continues trading with Bretonnia, Tilea, Estalia and Araby just fine, but they lose a lot of profitability, because they can't buy cheap imperial steel with Arabyan spices to flog to Bretonnia for cheap Bretonnian grain to flog to Tilea. Their other trade partners will swiftly shift to gouge them now that they can't exploit Imperial price differentials to bargain other parties down.


As for the ironclads, realistically the ironclads are mainly dealing with :
-Shore batteries. Even at human quality, you can put more and longer ranged artillery fire onto structures than ships.

-Wizards, both domestic(Azyr, possibly Ulgu if they learned from the Ulthuan sea mages tradition), expatriate(this is a literal roll of the dice whether theres actual high mages in residence willing and able to intervene) and mercenary(mercenary listings have Arabyan djinn summoners, rogue imperial Magisters, and IIRC theres some chaos sorcerors, self taught wizards, and necromancers on those listings, if you were willing to pay and didn't have the Imperial bias against unsanctioned magic). Yes, the dwarves aren't helpless against it, but when magic is in play assuming that your side is immune is...hubristic. Barak Varr does not have Kragg on board with his Anvil or Thorek's swarm of dispel dispensers.

-Bloody stubborn idiots. If they were rational, sensible people they'd fold when they see the ironclads show up. If they were rational people they'd fold when they see the ironclads sink their fleet.
--If they weren't, then just about anyone could take potshots at passing trade traffic out of spite. Would be unlikely, but assuming that nobody would be so stubborn would be missing the point of the setting.
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Good points! I would posit counterarguments.

-Marienburg can indeed draw down forces fairly freely, but those forces are then at loose ends. They either move on to other employers (not happy, not disastrous) or remain in Marienburg and cause trouble for the place that just let go of much of its security forces (positively miserable). Even if they all spontaneously decide to take up farming in the Wasteland (spectacularly unlikely), the thriving merchant empire is now heavily divested of much of the security on which its trade necessarily relies, hitting what profits remain further. Leading me to:
--Marienburg's position means that its trading policy is as reliant on the Empire as the Empire's is on them. You note this, but I feel you understate the issue. With Marienburg losing the primary flow of goods on which they rely while simultaneously having to draw down large amounts of security forces to make bank, it'll be a pirate heyday as Marienburger captains travel less familiar routes with much less security. Their prestige would suffer as heavily as their profits.
-Marienburg is threatening a blockade. If they were entirely confident in their ability to maintain it, they would have opened with one to make the Empire's ruling class feel the bite. Would have shown willing, and driven the magnitude of the consequences of non-cooperation home. It's not like relations could get any worse, there are already significant factions calling for a reconquest. If they aren't already doing it, they have a reason.
-Your notes on how and why this would hurt the Empire, I of course do not contest. It would hurt. That's why I advocate for begging Dwarven compensation, to ease the sting and heighten the public and noble willingness to endure the blockade.

As for ironclads:

-I did acknowledge wizards as a threat. However, what I emphasized was that the Marienburgers will have to contend not only with ironclads specifically pre-runed out the ass, no Kragg on hand required, but with whatever non-Battle mages the Empire can spare -- and for a conflict of this magnitude, the Empire can likely spare them in bulk. Marienburg could of course resort to the grab bag you posit, but I'll note that part of that grab bag will be mercenaries which you yourself noted are destined for force reductions in the event of a blockade. Even if mages aren't cut directly, they'll be a part of a shrinking garrison riding herd on increasingly-rowdy former parts of the garrison -- especially with a war that leaves them unable to depart the city. Focus will be split. My bet is not that the ironclads are invincible against magic; my bet is that specifically enchanted for anti-magic ironclads supported by all the mages the Empire can spare to humiliating the city-state trying to humiliate them for the fourth or fifth time can deal with the magical forces that could be mustered by a city-state specifically under heavy financial strain. I bet that they can deal with it in acceptable form, particularly given that it's the only plausible threat to them.
-Marienburgers shooting at passing ships is a possibility, but I personally would discount it as a serious threat. To meaningfully disrupt trade they'd need large troop formations or an artillery piece, neither of which would be invisible to the still-present ironclads (and either of which would be virtually impossible to keep supplied once all trade to the city dies because the docks were razed). It also simply may not be practical to have the full width of the Reik under fire from shore batteries at its mouth; it's quite a big river, after all. They have the chain for a reason, and a part of that may be a lack of reach to bombard the center. Mages remain a concern, as ever -- but then the assets at risk from counter-battery fire are almost irreplaceable, less reliable, and could be countered by several different assets the dwarves and Imperials will have on hand. And, finally, stubborn fools who will bombard passing merchant ships are stubborn fools who might also be eyeing the manors of the greedy burghers who got them into this mess. Either is unlikely, but either is equally likely. I wouldn't consider it, myself.
 
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CornyBones said:
What are the odds the elves want Marionburg sacked so that (a. They have the option to resettle the city. and (b. it gets them out of what ever sort of agreement they have with The Ten.
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None whatsoever. If the Empire took the city the Empire would damn well hold onto it, and by an earlier WOG the Elves are only bound by the treaty if they say they are.
 
This is my current book wish list.

Bretonnian Extensive The Empire (100gc)*, Bretonnian Extensive Trade (100gc)**, Dwarven Antiquarian Sevir (100gc, 2 DF), Imperial Antiquarian Divine Magic (100gc, 2 CF), Imperial Antiquarian Enchantment (100gc, 2 CF), Imperial Esoteric Chemistry (250gc)***, Bretonnian Extensive Chemistry (100gc), Imperial Esoteric Engineering (150gc)****, Bretonnian Extensive Engineering (100gc), Dwarven Extensive Engineering (100gc).
Total cost: 900gc, 4 CF

* Marienburg and the Empire are both covered under The Empire of Man books. Both are heavily relevant in current events, current events that Mathilde may well get involved in. It'd be a good idea to get a bigger bonus there.
** Less relevant to the Marienburg situation but still relevant, and they'd be useful in dealing with the peat trade in Talabecland.
*** I believe that Chemistry would help with the AV safety action by telling us about methods and tools to handle dangerous materials. It may be that it's another subject that'll help with the action, in which case we should get something else.
**** We have a rather sizeable amount of skaven technology, most from Skryre but some also from Moulder, and we're gonna get Johann to study them soon. Given how much tech there is here, the rewards from getting this many Engineering books will be quite high. I think we should get the dwarf books even if Johann can't read Khazalid (can't remember if he can or not); we're gonna be studying the brass orb ourselves, and the higher the bonus, the less chance of something going catastrophically wrong.
 
So, suddenly I want to see what would happen if we went to Marienburg with the Coin set to All The Lies, and begin spreading rumours that the head families are clearly infiltrated by Vampires who want to use this economic war to break the alliance between the Empire and the Dwarves, and weaken the humans so that they can take over easier.
 
SakSak said:
So, suddenly I want to see what would happen if we went to Marienburg with the Coin set to All The Lies, and begin spreading rumours that the head families are clearly infiltrated by Vampires who want to use this economic war to break the alliance between the Empire and the Dwarves, and weaken the humans so that they can take over easier.
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Then people will believe that we're a crazy person who sincerely believes in some really out there conspiracy theories. The Deceiver doesn't make people believe lies, it makes people believe we think we're telling the truth.
 
SakSak said:
So, suddenly I want to see what would happen if we went to Marienburg with the Coin set to All The Lies, and begin spreading rumours that the head families are clearly infiltrated by Vampires who want to use this economic war to break the alliance between the Empire and the Dwarves, and weaken the humans so that they can take over easier.
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Probably be ignored as the local crazy doomsayer, maybe get a bottle thrown at us if we become annoying enough.
"THE VAMPIRES ARE POISONING THE RIVERS TO TURN THE FISH INTO MUTANTS"
"That's Old Lady Grey. Just don't make eye contact."
 
We could be doing it in different disguises though. And I am pretty sure Mathilde is skilled enough to start a wave of rumors especially with the Coin to help.

Would require Belegar to send us in a Special Mission though.

Belegar: Release the Weber!
 
TimEd said:
We could be doing it in different disguises though. And I am pretty sure Mathilde is skilled enough to start a wave of rumors especially with the Coin to help.

Would require Belegar to send us in a Special Mission though.

Belegar: Release the Weber!
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Actually yeah, could disguise ourselves as members of the Ten with magic and blast away with the Deceiver.
 
picklepikkl said:
I am not assuming we'd do it in the stupidest way possible; spreading rumors in a bar, though, isn't going to get us far. You and others have proposed pretending to be various wealthy figures; the issue is that Marienburg knows that the Empire has Grey Wizards. Marienburg has their own college where people study Ulgu, they aren't stupid, they will be prepared for magical disguises and spies. If we stay in the pubs and don't attract large amounts of attention, this has the problem that we have not attracted large amounts of attention. If we take means to stand out and make our words more notable, this has the problem that we are now standing out in a city that is aware that its chief rival has access to shadow wizards, and which has them too.

Deceiver is optimized for putting supernaturally believable falsehoods into the ears of people who have reason to believe you know what you're saying, like with Qrech. It is not good at agitprop. It would be different if we had access to Marienburgites who knew us, or already knew a cover identity of ours; we could flip the Coin, tell them lies, and be confident that we would be believed and they would then take action based on that. But we aren't reasonably going to be able to establish that credibility in this sort of environment; certainly not without getting caught up in some Spy vs. Spy bullshit as their counterespionage wizards do their things. The other side is allowed to be competent too.
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Marienburg may know that the Empire has grey wizards. There's probably even some magical defenses. But even the Empire has great trouble with greys mindfucking people(that's why the vow of poverty is a thing). It's possible Marienburg decided to spend all their wizardpower locking down as tight as they can, and debatable if that would stop us (or any other Lord Magister). If they did, great! That means we won't have to deal with them fucking with channel projects. We should encourage that.

And that's without even getting into the fact that have a divine artifact from the god of liars and thieves. We can spread (mundane) rumors with mundane disguises (Mathilde can certainly pull that off) to damage general moral (because the mood on the street matters a whole lot in a siege situation), rob merchants to give them something else to think about, kill particularly evil people, and be utterly untraceable with the night prowler. She's an unholy terror with that.
Or just tells lots of people that they are utterly fucked if the Empire and Dwarfs get truly pissed off. Repeat that enough, and the leaders will have a hard time getting them to hold on through a blockade. Because the normal people will be losing their job, and they have a lot less reserves.
 
Andres110 said:
Actually yeah, could disguise ourselves as members of the Ten with magic and blast away with the Deceiver.
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There's also plenty of ways to plant evidence and get it found, and so on and so forth. We probably have access to all those documents detailing the Vampire's usual form of operations, and we're looking for the Peat sellers in Sylvania.
... actually, how sad would it be if they actually were supporting the vampires to help keep Roswita pinned down, and Talabecland was just a front? I don't actually think that's the case, but it wouldn't surprise me. After all, if the Empire has a successful example of revanchism, how hard would it be to continue that?
 
Lightwhispers said:
That sort of timber is, or should be, a strategic military resource for any power with naval concerns. I would be surprised if they don't have people at least trying to monitor movement of timber suitable for masts and keels.

Another thought I had, was that the option to finance the Empire actually positions Barak Varr better in the long run, because it gets the Empire used to not shipping through Marienburg. So, once the canal is ready, more people will be ready to ship southward.

That said, there's a much higher likelihood of Marienburg ending up with a major Grudge against it than with the blockade-breaking option, I would think.
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That sort of timber is used by every country in large quantities. This is a world with sea monsters, any oceanic trade ships are built tough out of necessity.

You may as well try to regulate steel because it makes swords
PoptartProdigy said:
Good points! I would posit counterarguments.

-Marienburg can indeed draw down forces fairly freely, but those forces are then at loose ends. They either move on to other employers (not happy, not disastrous) or remain in Marienburg and cause trouble for the place that just let go of much of its security forces (positively miserable). Even if they all spontaneously decide to take up farming in the Wasteland (spectacularly unlikely), the thriving merchant empire is now heavily divested of much of the security on which its trade necessarily relies, hitting what profits remain further. Leading me to:
--Marienburg's position means that its trading policy is as reliant on the Empire as the Empire's is on them. You note this, but I feel you understate the issue. With Marienburg losing the primary flow of goods on which they rely while simultaneously having to draw down large amounts of security forces to make bank, it'll be a pirate heyday as Marienburger captains travel less familiar routes with much less security. Their prestige would suffer as heavily as their profits.
-Marienburg is threatening a blockade. If they were entirely confident in their ability to maintain it, they would have opened with one to make the Empire's ruling class feel the bite. Would have shown willing, and driven the magnitude of the consequences of non-cooperation home. It's not like relations could get any worse, there are already significant factions calling for a reconquest. If they aren't already doing it, they have a reason.
-Your notes on how and why this would hurt the Empire, I of course do not contest. It would hurt. That's why I advocate for begging Dwarven compensation, to ease the sting and heighten the public and noble willingness to endure the blockade.

As for ironclads:

-I did acknowledge wizards as a threat. However, what I emphasized was that the Marienburgers will have to contend not only with ironclads specifically pre-runed out the ass, no Kragg on hand required, but with whatever non-Battle mages the Empire can spare -- and for a conflict of this magnitude, the Empire can likely spare them in bulk. Marienburg could of course resort to the grab bag you posit, but I'll note that part of that grab bag will be mercenaries which you yourself noted are destined for force reductions in the event of a blockade. Even if mages aren't cut directly, they'll be a part of a shrinking garrison riding herd on increasingly-rowdy former parts of the garrison -- especially with a war that leaves them unable to depart the city. Focus will be split. My bet is not that the ironclads are invincible against magic; my bet is that specifically enchanted for anti-magic ironclads supported by all the mages the Empire can spare to humiliating the city-state trying to humiliate them for the fourth or fifth time can deal with the magical forces that could be mustered by a city-state specifically under heavy financial strain. I bet that they can deal with it in acceptable form, particularly given that it's the only plausible threat to them.
-Marienburgers shooting at passing ships is a possibility, but I personally would discount it as a serious threat. To meaningfully disrupt trade they'd need large troop formations or an artillery piece, neither of which would be invisible to the still-present ironclads (and either of which would be virtually impossible to keep supplied once all trade to the city dies because the docks were razed). It also simply may not be practical to have the full width of the Reik under fire from shore batteries at its mouth; it's quite a big river, after all. They have the chain for a reason, and a part of that may be a lack of reach to bombard the center. Mages remain a concern, as ever -- but then the assets at risk from counter-battery fire are almost irreplaceable, less reliable, and could be countered by several different assets the dwarves and Imperials will have on hand. And, finally, stubborn fools who will bombard passing merchant ships are stubborn fools who might also be eyeing the manors of the greedy burghers who got them into this mess. Either is unlikely, but either is equally likely. I wouldn't consider it, myself.
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-The drawdown would not be consequene free, no, but as historical Venice did, its actually too defensible, the important part is to make sure to either fire them overseas or provide transport off at the time of termination, so they turn bandit elsewhere and becomes NotYourProblem.

-Yes, absolutely, the dependency is reciprocal, and I've repeatedly reiterated, this is playing chicken, its looking to see who pulls out first when their hands are both in the same vise. Ultimately its an intimidation play, you can't ensure a win, but you can ensure the other party loses if you're willing to also lose.

-Not against your point in this case, but against a widespread assertion that Marienburg cannot do anything to Ironclads other than wail and gnash teeth.
--Also the Empire's wizards and wizard agents are as of last information, committed to many fronts, and they can't redirect those without taking a hefty loss elsewhere. Certainly you could probably pick up a handful of Journeymen to support with, but more than that would be difficult.

-Stubborn fools are mostly a concern for addressing maximized human costs - dwarf reaction to stubborn fools is usually to out stubborn them and then crush them flat along with much of their vicinity after all. Sure, Marienburg's leadership behavior has been predatorily mercantile, but they're still on the side of Order and share a faith with Mathilde to boot, I'd prefer they not be harmed more than necessary to make them stop being dumb.
 
People keep talking about the Dealer as a fifth face for Ranald, but, uh, it's probably not. It's probably just another name for one of his previously established faces, not an entirely new face/aspect.

BoneyM said:
The merchants that worship him claim Ranald the Dealer is another name for Ranald the Gambler. Those that deal with them often insist that it's more likely to be the Night Prowler or the Deceiver.
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Probably. If I'm reading that right.

Unless of course the GM changed their mind or the circumstances have changed in the last 3000 pages which, you know, would be valid.
 
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Andres110 said:
I have an idea.

First, we steal all of the Ten's money with the power of magic, the Coin, and possibly stealth.
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We should probably wait until we're a Lord Magister for that, or we might have trouble figuring out what to do with all the money.
Actually, I forget. Does Lord Magister free us from the. Vow of Poverty as a whole, or just the need to tithe Part of our income?
 
Ericwinter said:
We should probably wait until we're a Lord Magister for that, or we might have trouble figuring out what to do with all the money.
Actually, I forget. Does Lord Magister free us from the. Vow of Poverty as a whole, or just the need to tithe Part of our income?
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Lord Magister means we no longer have to tithe any of our earnings, but we're still bound to the Vow of Poverty.

However, I have to remind people that the Vow of Poverty does not prohibit us from making money. What it forces us to do is spend that money on practical uses. So long as we're not hoarding it or spending it on impractical things, it is entirely ok to do things with the explicit goal of making money.
 
PoptartProdigy said:
I did acknowledge wizards as a threat. However, what I emphasized was that the Marienburgers will have to contend not only with ironclads specifically pre-runed out the ass, no Kragg on hand required
---
My bet is not that the ironclads are invincible against magic; my bet is that specifically enchanted for anti-magic ironclads
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Please point to the information - given by the GM - that makes you believe that there are dwarven capital ships covered in runes.
No-one using this argument has shown any.
 
Ericwinter said:
We should probably wait until we're a Lord Magister for that, or we might have trouble figuring out what to do with all the money.
Actually, I forget. Does Lord Magister free us from the. Vow of Poverty as a whole, or just the need to tithe Part of our income?
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Unless a duration or release condition is mentioned when the Vow is sworn, capital-V Vows are forever.

That said.

Firstly, if they're not confident you're not going to use the Grey Wind to abuse the citizenry of the Empire to make or steal money for shits and giggles, you don't get to be Lord Magister. The Vow exists primarily to weed out the unwise and/or greedy earlier in their careers, and while a LM is still technically bound by it, there's also no one especially likely to call them on it.

Secondly, Lord Magisters are able and expected to operate on a scale where "obscure magical materials from the ends of the earth", "large-scale social engineering" and "hiring multiple mercenary companies on short notice" are absolutely valid work expenses. Having the money on hand to do those things when required is almost impossible to argue as a violation of the VoP unless they're visibly spending most/all of it on their own personal luxury.
 
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I propose that once Mathilde becomes a Lord Magister, we use her resources to help make the Empire self-sufficient in terms of military supplies. Suffering existential crises whenever the burghers get pissy is a terrible state to be in. No more imports.
 
Andres110 said:
Lord Magister means we no longer have to tithe any of our earnings, but we're still bound to the Vow of Poverty.

However, I have to remind people that the Vow of Poverty does not prohibit us from making money. What it forces us to do is spend that money on practical uses. So long as we're not hoarding it or spending it on impractical things, it is entirely ok to do things with the explicit goal of making money.
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Ah, okay then... still don't really need that much money. Or any, really, our existing sources of income are more than enough for our purposes, and they'll be growing exponentially soon anyways. Maybe use it for charity? The Shallyans could probably use a good chunk of gold...
 
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