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The problem is that the Coin doesn't make you supernaturally convincing, it just makes people believe you believe what you are saying.

Like, in real life, I believe that the dude who stands on street corners yelling about a conspiracy to destroy the country believes what he is saying. I do not think he is trying to trick me. But I also think he's, to put it charitably, off-base. If a complete unknown starts spreading rumors, then even if people believe she isn't lying, they still have no reason to trust her information; they'll never believe you're lying, but they might believe you're wrong, or just crazy. So I don't think we could stir up discontent in Marienburg using the Coin; at least, not without the benefit of pre-existing contacts or other avenues for disseminating information.
We would need to act according to basic compenetence
Did I say that we should shout on the street like a crazed loon? Please don't assume that we will do it in the stupidest way possible

We could put actual effort into it. We use a disguise to just mention it at a bar that we say heard an elf say that the King would never support Marienburg. We then as someone else mention something similar, repeat, pretend to be multiple people. Later pretend to be a wealthy merchent and mention they heard something etc.
If someone hears this more than once how would they react? Do you think the empire lacks agents in Marienburg that could help.

We spread as many different rumours as possible. The goal is to make people doubt that messing with the empire at this time is a good idea...
 
I suppose we can just ask Ranald to ask his GF Shallya for some eternal youth for us.

Huh, I basically called it.

"But that was in '62. You must be..."

She feigns horror. "You ask a lady about her age? How gauche!" She grins. "Literally the oldest trick in the book - or at least, in our book. Do nice things for Shallyans, turn up the charm, and a few miracles later you're back in the flower of your youth.

Reminder to everyone, if we want to turn back the clock at some point we just need to start grinding that Shallya favor.

Asking ourselves "What Would Ranald Do" really will provide us with the answer to all of our problems.
 
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We could put actual effort into it. We use a disguise to just mention it at a bar that we say heard an elf say that the King would never support Marienburg. We then as someone else mention something similar, repeat, pretend to be multiple people. Later pretend to be a wealthy merchent and mention they heard something etc.
If someone hears this more than once how would they react? Do you think the empire lacks agents in Marienburg that could help.

We spread as many different rumours as possible. The goal is to make people doubt that messing with the empire at this time is a good idea...
I am not assuming we'd do it in the stupidest way possible; spreading rumors in a bar, though, isn't going to get us far. You and others have proposed pretending to be various wealthy figures; the issue is that Marienburg knows that the Empire has Grey Wizards. Marienburg has their own college where people study Ulgu, they aren't stupid, they will be prepared for magical disguises and spies. If we stay in the pubs and don't attract large amounts of attention, this has the problem that we have not attracted large amounts of attention. If we take means to stand out and make our words more notable, this has the problem that we are now standing out in a city that is aware that its chief rival has access to shadow wizards, and which has them too.

Deceiver is optimized for putting supernaturally believable falsehoods into the ears of people who have reason to believe you know what you're saying, like with Qrech. It is not good at agitprop. It would be different if we had access to Marienburgites who knew us, or already knew a cover identity of ours; we could flip the Coin, tell them lies, and be confident that we would be believed and they would then take action based on that. But we aren't reasonably going to be able to establish that credibility in this sort of environment; certainly not without getting caught up in some Spy vs. Spy bullshit as their counterespionage wizards do their things. The other side is allowed to be competent too.
 
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I am not assuming we'd do it in the stupidest way possible; spreading rumors in a bar, though, isn't going to get us far. You and others have proposed pretending to be various wealthy figures; the issue is that Marienburg knows that the Empire has Grey Wizards. Marienburg has their own college where people study Ulgu, they aren't stupid, they will be prepared for magical disguises and spies. If we stay in the pubs and don't attract large amounts of attention, this has the problem that we have not attracted large amounts of attention. If we take means to stand out and make our words more notable, this has the problem that we are now standing out in a city that is aware that its chief rival has access to shadow wizards, and which has them too.

Deceiver is optimized for putting supernaturally believable falsehoods into the ears of people who have reason to believe you know what you're saying, like with Qrech. It is not good at agitprop. It would be different if we had access to Marienburgites who knew us, or already knew a cover identity of ours; we could flip the Coin, tell them lies, and be confident that we would be believed and they would then take action based on that. But we aren't reasonably going to be able to establish that credibility in this sort of environment; certainly not without getting caught up in some Spy vs. Spy bullshit as their counterespionage wizards do their things. The other side is allowed to be competent too.

I think you're putting a little too much emphasis on the coin. As a Gray Wizard, the spells we have access to allow us to create societal upheaval very easily. It's the entire reason behind why the Gray Order is so strict-- a rogue Magister with Ulgu can make a very big mess if left unchecked. With Doppelganger we can pretend to be literally anybody, including elves or dwarves or vampires. With Illusion, we can make a public spectacle of any manufactured event we want. Etc. The Coin is just one more tool on top of that that allows us to manipulate patsies easier.

Mind, I don't actually want to take the action, but claiming that it's not feasible for a Gray Magister to sabotage things and spread misinformation doesn't make sense to me.
 
I've got a weird question about this.

How does this interact with disguises? Like, if we set the coin to Protector for whatever reason, disguise ourselves for intrigue purposes and act to protect people ... do we get the Rep bonus or does the Disguise get the Rep bonus, assuming we don't reveal ourselves?

Also, does this activate if we try to protect people but fail?
We can make some educated guesses, but we don't know.

We've never tried the Protector face.
 
Huh, in that case ... I sort of want to put on a disguise as a Ranaldian, like, wear a mask of Ranald and a Priest outfit or something, and go save some lives while using the Protector coin. Get him some more worshipers + positive public reception.

The last time Ranald got any amount of power he went as hard as he possibly could, making his follower the Empress, so I'm really curious what he'd do if we increased his income at all.
That reminds me of A Sword Without a Hilt, where King Viserys goes around pretending to be a Badass Priest of the Old Gods to drum up support for them. I'm in.
 
You do know we're only giving suggestions about what could happen for the dwarfs, its really none of our business getting involve with Marienburg considering the amount of work we got, if the Empire wins or loses is up to them but I do hope our influence with the dwarfs would be enough to put some brakes to any dumb war with the elves.
 
[X] No, but they could help break the blockade
[X] They can make up for the loss in trade

Since we're offering advice of what the dwarves are willing to support instead of deciding what happens outright, both sound very like probable scenarios to me. The dwarves can decide to ignore Marienburg's threats by using alternate routes or send a fleet to bust some heads. The strategic, diplomatic, and economic assessment is a bit out of our wheelhouse, I think.

Either way, the Empire can count on their support.
 
and next thing I know our mutual friend shows up grinning and bulging with stolen power and saying 'you won't believe what Mathilde did'

I know I've been talking about this scene a lot, but I love how Ranald puts on exactly zero airs. All the other deities put on this whole sanctimonious, holy, you are part of something bigger and more important then yourself air, not Ranald.

Ranald shows up at you're house in the middle of the night going "check out this totally rad thing my pal did, let's go have an adventure."

Ranald is the best. Even the two priests we found hanging out in Stirland's sewers made it seem like Ranald was super chill with them.

He treats his worshipers like his pals, like he's someone you can relax around and actually get to know, while most other deities treat their followers like servants that need to do exactly what they say. I think that's pretty great of him.
 
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He was also willing to risk his entire existence to save us on that Mork stunt, so yeah. (A bad roll could have gone very badly for Ranald, per Boney as I recall)
He's that good mate who also sometimes gets into terrible, horrible trouble on a dare. And likes to get you tangled up in his schemes, too.
 
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Poptart raises valid points about infeasibility of Marienburg blockading the Empire for very long, but honestly I am not entirely convinced. Sure, their wealth relies on Empire trade going through them, but they are explicitly said to have deeper coffers than the Empire does. If they are stubborn enough to keep up the blockade for any length of time, it could hurt the Empire and Karaz Ankor significantly, and the risk of some Elector Counts doing something dumb is fairly high.

Whereas against Barak Varr ironclads, as Poptart also pointed out, they have absolutely no chance without extremely powerful backup from Ulthuan, and there's no way Ulthuan will send Dragonships to fight Dwarfs over Marienburg where they don't even really have a treaty. Threatening to break the blockade, or even actually doing so, seems to me like a better option on average.
My point about Marienburg being unable to sustain a blockade is not about the relative depths of their coffers to the Empire's. The Empire is the fantasy!HRE, Marienburg is the fantasy!Netherlands. Of course Marienburg has deeper vaults. My point was that A) The Empire has a productive economy that is not trade, whereas Marienburg's surroundings are literally called- (puts on reading glasses, peers at map) -"The Wastelands," which does not speak well to their ability to maintain any positive income balance during times of trade disruption; and B) that the option to have the dwarves subsidize Imperial losses to the blockade does not match up Marienburg and the Empire's coffers, but rather Marienburg and the Karaz Ankor's. I simply don't believe that Marienburg could physically have stockpiled more gold in the entirety of their existence for the sake of their survival than the dwarves have over the past five decades for Sunday brunch funds.

Also, yeah, still agreed that a war would indeed be an inevitable victory. Ironclads are just too much of an edge, with no corresponding counter for Marienburg that the Empire and Karaz Ankor together cannot match or exceed. I maintain we do not need that edge. And Ulthuan...if they had enough of a stake in Marienburg to go to war over it, they would be making that clear. For much the same reason that Marienburg would be blockading now if they could afford to do it, Ulthuan has no reason to make unclear noises unless they want to discourage a course of action without accidentally placing themselves in the position of having to do anything concrete about that. If they wanted Marienburg untouched, they would make that very clear. They're High Elves. They're far too arrogant to have a soft touch about expecting their clients to remain untouched. If they really wanted it, they'd say so, with not the slightest notion that their audience might object. And pragmatically speaking, soft-pedaling the threat without demonstrating resolve just makes it less likely to be heeded.
 
I remember reading here or somewhere that the Vampire Counts' equivalent of galleons and ironclads is a flying castle. Is that true? I can't find any lore supporting it.
 
Earlier on, it was asked if we could strongarm Brettonia into not exporting food to the marienburgers, to a resounding "no", but how possible would it be to just use, like, normal diplomacy instead of strongarming?

Like, even going against the inevitable bribery attempts from the 'burgers, you might be able to make a solid enough argument to the brets that the Empire proper would be worth backing here, with the right incentives.

(I'm not really sure how you'd go about that, though; would you try to go through the nobility to get orders passed down, or would you need to negotiate with the merchants themselves because of their weird state of autonomy?)
This is actually a pretty good idea - we wouldn't need to strongarm the Bretonnians or whoever into not exporting food to Marienburg if we just out bid them or bought up all the food before they could get to it. It'd obviously be super expensive due to Marienburg having loads of dosh to get into bidding wars with - but it's really a question of whether this is more expensive than trying to shift the Empire's trade over land to Barak Varr.

That just might end up being cheaper, too - it'd be much more treasure up front to keep outbidding Marienburg but jacking up food prices in Marienburg an order of magnitude or so this way would produce major freaking unrest in the city really darn quick. Not to mention putting a fair bit of hurt on the oligarchs wallets to burn through their reserves real fast, as not only would they be losing money due to an embargo but they'd have a massive drain on their treasury from trying to outbid Barak Varr.

@BoneyM would this sort of offensive economic warfare be a valid option for the dwarfs to pursue rather than the more defensive option of subsidizing the Empire's shift to overland trade?

I am not assuming we'd do it in the stupidest way possible; spreading rumors in a bar, though, isn't going to get us far. You and others have proposed pretending to be various wealthy figures; the issue is that Marienburg knows that the Empire has Grey Wizards. Marienburg has their own college where people study Ulgu, they aren't stupid, they will be prepared for magical disguises and spies. If we stay in the pubs and don't attract large amounts of attention, this has the problem that we have not attracted large amounts of attention. If we take means to stand out and make our words more notable, this has the problem that we are now standing out in a city that is aware that its chief rival has access to shadow wizards, and which has them too.

Deceiver is optimized for putting supernaturally believable falsehoods into the ears of people who have reason to believe you know what you're saying, like with Qrech. It is not good at agitprop. It would be different if we had access to Marienburgites who knew us, or already knew a cover identity of ours; we could flip the Coin, tell them lies, and be confident that we would be believed and they would then take action based on that. But we aren't reasonably going to be able to establish that credibility in this sort of environment; certainly not without getting caught up in some Spy vs. Spy bullshit as their counterespionage wizards do their things. The other side is allowed to be competent too.
Yeah, if it actually comes to the point where Mathilde spends the AP to head to Marienburg to do stuff we're not going to fart around with the kind of time sink fancy intrigue games takes - it'd fit Mathilde's skillset and personality much better to just assassinate one or two major players and maybe leave their heads in the beds of a couple more alongside a letter telling them to knock the embargo shit off.

Not to say that this would be a trivial thing to do, seeing as how Directorate members probably have the best protection money can buy, but two separate 25-favor dwarf artifacts + the Coin means Mathilde has way better gear for breaking, entering, and murdering than basically anybody is equipped to deal with - and in terms of skill is probably at least as good as anybody the Directorate would have on retainer.
 
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I remember reading here or somewhere that the Vampire Counts' equivalent of galleons and ironclads is a flying castle. Is that true? I can't find any lore supporting it.
I don't think the Vampire Counts ever had anything in Man O' War? I suppose the closest would be Dreadfleet, where Count Noctilus' ship is basically a small Black Ark made from his own Sylvanian castle, but that's a rather special case rather than something they'd all do.

Edit: Yep, just checked, and there's info for the Empire, Bretonnia, Dwarfs, High Elves, Dark Elves, and Orcs, but no Vampires.
 
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[X] No, but they could help break the blockade

The guy we're giving this to is a diplo guy, I think it's safe to assume he'll threaten with the stick before whacking them with it. Some dudes literally just got a lesson that you do not fuck with dwarves and expect them to back down or play by your rules, so even if the local monopolists are idiots they shouldn't be calling it as a bluff.

Frankly, they should not be willing to risk everything on maintaining a full monopoly on all external trade goods when they've already got a guaranteed one on Elvish stuff. Yeah, this is going to cut into their bottom line badly, but I bet the only reason they're willing to risk it is because they know full well that the Empire is overstretched right now. And just like the Empire, they didn't take the dwarves having a vested interest into account.

If they're actually so greedy that they're willing to go to the mat versus whatever the Empire can rustle up plus the dwarves then I'm feeling that they deserve to be on the enemy list.
 
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