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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Ganurath said:
Less necromancy, more shipping. Panoramia's lineage shows magical talent is hereditary. The wizards need to make like King Kazador and his wife.

And before you suggest both, I'm concerned that Dhar might adversely impact fertility.
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Pfft, those biological systems are way too slow for our purposes. Once you find a suitable pairing, it then takes, what, 20 years to grow a new mage? And that's not counting the time needed to find two wizards suited for each other and cast the spells to make them compatible!

On the other hand, raising them with necromancy would only take like a couple of days, tops. A much faster growth rate, especially once you get some new apprentices to help you out. (Though, again, that's not counting the time to find wizard corpses)

Also, I think Skaven proves that Dhar does not have an exclusively negative effect on fertility, not that we in any way want to use them as an example.
 
DragonParadox said:
Most elves eventually die of old age (or at least can grow weary of the world and fade). But as the Witch King and a handful of other notable heroes show the rules are not for everyone.
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I don't know why you're making that distinction, tbh. There are certainly outstanding individuals but the discussion seems to be about the elves taken as a whole. In that context elves are definitely mortals.

Going by your standard humans are the most immortal of all races, having produced oodles of immortals of varying types.
 
Omegahugger said:
Pfft, those biological systems are way too slow for our purposes. Once you find a suitable pairing, it then takes, what, 20 years to grow a new mage? And that's not counting the time needed to find two wizards suited for each other and cast the spells to make them compatible!

On the other hand, raising them with necromancy would only take like a couple of days, tops. A much faster growth rate, especially once you get some new apprentices to help you out. (Though, again, that's not counting the time to find wizard corpses)

Also, I think Skaven proves that Dhar does not have an exclusively negative effect on fertility, not that we in any way want to use them as an example.
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It's only because the skaven cheat at literally fucking everything, at the cost of nothing. This is the race that snorts warpstone like cocaine addicts and yet somehow don't horribly mutate like literally everyone else does. The same race that somehow explosively breeds at ridiculous rates, lives almost entirely underground (where little life actually grows), yet somehow does not totally starve. Like, greenskins cheat a hell of a lot too, but they can't just do fucking everything they dream of just by slapping some warpstone on it, and unlike the greenskins, the skaven maintain an astonishing level of unity and stability despite even their leaders having very short life spans and no magic Waaagh field tying them together.
 
SaltyWaffles said:
It's only because the skaven cheat at literally fucking everything, at the cost of nothing. This is the race that snorts warpstone like cocaine addicts and yet somehow don't horribly mutate like literally everyone else does. The same race that somehow explosively breeds at ridiculous rates, lives almost entirely underground (where little life actually grows), yet somehow does not totally starve. Like, greenskins cheat a hell of a lot too, but they can't just do fucking everything they dream of just by slapping some warpstone on it, and unlike the greenskins, the skaven maintain an astonishing level of unity and stability despite even their leaders having very short life spans and no magic Waaagh field tying them together.
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Sure seems to suggest there's a way to use Dhar without the commonly accepted side-effects.

Maybe something worth a study or two~
 
picklepikkl said:
Hold up, this is way way way too much "benefit of hindsight" analysis. We knew that there was a local conflict between skaven clans, and then later learned that Mors was considered a traitor-clan. We did not know that this meant that there was a civil war throughout the whole of the Under-Empire until Qrech told us, and then we immediately took that upstairs. So, no, I don't think we failed in our duty at all -- I did a quick search through the thread archives and I certainly couldn't find anyone saying "we should go tell the Empire about a full-scale Skaven civil war based on the evidence we've got here!"

Like, even once our Eshin-friend told us that Mors was on the outs, that's not Big Deal News. We had no way of knowing what the scale was, how much fighting was happening, or if they had any allies. It was really important locally, but not at the "immediately inform the Grey Patriarch" level. It was only once we began interrogating Qrech that we discovered that Mors was considered a Traitor-Clan because Pestilens had made a play for power, Mors backed them, and Pestilens and its allies were being destroyed as quickly as possible in the hopes that they could finish the job before the Horned Rat calls time-out. As soon as we knew that, we told Algard, because that has national-level implications, not just local ones.
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I disagree about what level of reporting is worthwhile. Even a regional civil war has huge implications, which is why I want better intelligence assets in place instead of a rumor mill. To free up some of that precious ap. It might not stroke our egos as much as the rumor mill but perhaps it will patch some of the glaring oversites that have come along with the mantra "that's not our job"
 
Omegahugger said:
On the other hand, raising them with necromancy would only take like a couple of days, tops. A much faster growth rate, especially once you get some new apprentices to help you out. (Though, again, that's not counting the time to find wizard corpses)
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While necromancy might yield a better short-term output, magically capable corpses are a relatively scarce commodity, and difficult to distinguish from a mundane corpse. Going Scarlet Empire with the Colleges as a foundation for mystic dynasties, on the other hand, will provide a better long-term yield. Imperial Wizards are kind of Terrestrial Exalted already, anyway. I'm now imagining Mathilde as an Iselsi.
 
Omegahugger said:
Pfft, those biological systems are way too slow for our purposes. Once you find a suitable pairing, it then takes, what, 20 years to grow a new mage? And that's not counting the time needed to find two wizards suited for each other and cast the spells to make them compatible!

On the other hand, raising them with necromancy would only take like a couple of days, tops. A much faster growth rate, especially once you get some new apprentices to help you out. (Though, again, that's not counting the time to find wizard corpses)

Also, I think Skaven proves that Dhar does not have an exclusively negative effect on fertility, not that we in any way want to use them as an example.
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And the best thing is, if you are officially a black magister, those wizard corpses-to-be actively deliver themselves to you!

It's extremely convenient!
 
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SaltyWaffles said:
If the goddamn druuchi can't figure it out, then the fucking skaven sure as hell didn't figure it out either. They just cheat, completely and utterly.
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Actually, how DOES warpstone affect humans? Specifically, how quickly, and what symptoms does it cause?

Because from what we see in quest:
-You can touch warpstone. Its not good for you, but its not going to kill you all that quickly. Its faster to starve somebody to death than put them near a big lump of warpstone to watch them die, but it WOULD shorten lifespan.

-We know from the Libris that ambient Dhar exposure(which Warpstone produces) DOES drive you insane in the Dhar way over time. Symptoms include paranoia, megalomania, schizophrenia, maniac behavior, obsession.

Which suggests to me that the Skaven 'get away' with Warpstone exposure by having simply integrated its symptoms into their society and extending the terminus where they expire from it.
Like, Skaven already have extremely short lifespans. How much of that is systematic warpstone poisoning? Would they even notice when they are born with Fetal Warpstone Syndrome?
Warpstone causes insanity...and Skaven culture is already insane in all the same ways.

And of course, we know the Chaos Gods can protect their followers from some of the consequences of Dhar, if they cared to try.
 
veekie said:
Would they even notice when they are born with Fetal Warpstone Syndrome?
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Ooh! Ooh! That's how you get Stormvermin! See, the tougher black-furred breeds are the ones that committed cannibalism in infancy. Normally, that'd require being crazy aggressive, but if there are vulnerable siblings in the litter...
 
I mean, if people really want to set up a magical kingdom, the border princes are right there.

just have to pretend its a research lab -> research community -> outpost -> branch college etc etc, until its to big to strop.
 
veekie said:
Actually, how DOES warpstone affect humans? Specifically, how quickly, and what symptoms does it cause?

Because from what we see in quest:
-You can touch warpstone. Its not good for you, but its not going to kill you all that quickly. Its faster to starve somebody to death than put them near a big lump of warpstone to watch them die, but it WOULD shorten lifespan.

-We know from the Libris that ambient Dhar exposure(which Warpstone produces) DOES drive you insane in the Dhar way over time. Symptoms include paranoia, megalomania, schizophrenia, maniac behavior, obsession.

Which suggests to me that the Skaven 'get away' with Warpstone exposure by having simply integrated its symptoms into their society and extending the terminus where they expire from it.
Like, Skaven already have extremely short lifespans. How much of that is systematic warpstone poisoning? Would they even notice when they are born with Fetal Warpstone Syndrome?
Warpstone causes insanity...and Skaven culture is already insane in all the same ways.

And of course, we know the Chaos Gods can protect their followers from some of the consequences of Dhar, if they cared to try.
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Warpstone and Dhar are not the same thing. Warpstone mutates you like Chaos does. Dhar just turns you insane.

This is why even the greenskins don't usually use warpstone very much--it fucks you up unless you handle it very carefully...or unless you're skaven, in which case it does fucking nothing to you, despite there being no justification or explanation for this whatsoever. Even the druuchi are careful about using warpstone, and they sure as hell don't go around carrying coins of it in their goddamn pockets. Hell, even the Chaos Dwarves don't liberally use warpstone, and they're the guys who think summoning and enslaving daemons is a grand old time.

EDIT: To give an example: being caught under the light of the moon made of warpstone can either give you chaos mutations or outright turn you into a beastman. That's what warpstone does to humans. Also, vampires can apparently use warpstone somewhat fine because they're vampires, and thus not vulnerable to Chaos mutation (at least not at that level of exposure).
 
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SaltyWaffles said:
Warpstone and Dhar are not the same thing. Warpstone mutates you like Chaos does. Dhar just turns you insane.

This is why even the greenskins don't usually use warpstone very much--it fucks you up unless you handle it very carefully...or unless you're skaven, in which case it does fucking nothing to you, despite there being no justification or explanation for this whatsoever. Even the druuchi are careful about using warpstone, and they sure as hell don't go around carrying coins of it in their goddamn pockets. Hell, even the Chaos Dwarves don't liberally use warpstone, and they're the guys who think summoning and enslaving daemons is a grand old time.

EDIT: To give an example: being caught under the light of the moon made of warpstone can either give you chaos mutations or outright turn you into a beastman. That's what warpstone does to humans. Also, vampires can apparently use warpstone somewhat fine because they're vampires, and thus not vulnerable to Chaos mutation (at least not at that level of exposure).
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Not sure how canon this is, but sufficient amounts of warpstone can mutate a skaven, atleast it did in one of the Gotrek and Felix novels, but the amounts needed are pretty huge. And considering skaven use warpstone as money, i doubt anyone few would ever get sufficiently exposed on regular basis.
I would guess skaven naturally get rid of whatever mutating influence warpstone has faster than most so they can effectively handle more of it without obvious harm.

the novel had a skaven (stormvermin?) ride on top of a zeppelin over chaos wastes, with occasional warpstorms, the people inside were protected both by physical and magical protections, but the skaven was out in the open and grew lot bigger (rat ogre size) and gained horns.
 
SaltyWaffles said:
Warpstone and Dhar are not the same thing. Warpstone mutates you like Chaos does. Dhar just turns you insane.

This is why even the greenskins don't usually use warpstone very much--it fucks you up unless you handle it very carefully...or unless you're skaven, in which case it does fucking nothing to you, despite there being no justification or explanation for this whatsoever. Even the druuchi are careful about using warpstone, and they sure as hell don't go around carrying coins of it in their goddamn pockets. Hell, even the Chaos Dwarves don't liberally use warpstone, and they're the guys who think summoning and enslaving daemons is a grand old time.

EDIT: To give an example: being caught under the light of the moon made of warpstone can either give you chaos mutations or outright turn you into a beastman. That's what warpstone does to humans. Also, vampires can apparently use warpstone somewhat fine because they're vampires, and thus not vulnerable to Chaos mutation (at least not at that level of exposure).
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Warpstone in this quest is literally solidified dhar tho
 
veekie said:
Actually, how DOES warpstone affect humans? Specifically, how quickly, and what symptoms does it cause?

Because from what we see in quest:
-You can touch warpstone. Its not good for you, but its not going to kill you all that quickly. Its faster to starve somebody to death than put them near a big lump of warpstone to watch them die, but it WOULD shorten lifespan.

-We know from the Libris that ambient Dhar exposure(which Warpstone produces) DOES drive you insane in the Dhar way over time. Symptoms include paranoia, megalomania, schizophrenia, maniac behavior, obsession.

Which suggests to me that the Skaven 'get away' with Warpstone exposure by having simply integrated its symptoms into their society and extending the terminus where they expire from it.
Like, Skaven already have extremely short lifespans. How much of that is systematic warpstone poisoning? Would they even notice when they are born with Fetal Warpstone Syndrome?
Warpstone causes insanity...and Skaven culture is already insane in all the same ways.

And of course, we know the Chaos Gods can protect their followers from some of the consequences of Dhar, if they cared to try.
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Well I imagine warpstone on humans makes them physically mutate, grow paranoid and unstable, reduces lifespans, almost like... Skaven.

*Mind blown*

But for real though, looking at the origin story of the Skaven and that human town I forget the name of, I wouldn't be surprised if Skaven were just humans horribly mutated by warpstone, maybe with said mutations focused by the Horned Rat, over many generations.

Which would neatly explain why Skaven apparentally aren't affected by warpstone poisoning; they are, it's just that the symptoms, reduced lifespan and paranoia, are viewed as racial traits rather than environmental ones.

Could also just be simple natural selection. Maybe the earliest Skaven did need to be careful around warpstone but weren't careful enough so over time only those more resistant remained, which made them be more lax in their caution, which made them worse and so on and so forth. That's honestly expected to have been true in addition to any other factors if there are any.
 
SaltyWaffles said:
Warpstone and Dhar are not the same thing. Warpstone mutates you like Chaos does. Dhar just turns you insane.

This is why even the greenskins don't usually use warpstone very much--it fucks you up unless you handle it very carefully...or unless you're skaven, in which case it does fucking nothing to you, despite there being no justification or explanation for this whatsoever. Even the druuchi are careful about using warpstone, and they sure as hell don't go around carrying coins of it in their goddamn pockets. Hell, even the Chaos Dwarves don't liberally use warpstone, and they're the guys who think summoning and enslaving daemons is a grand old time.

EDIT: To give an example: being caught under the light of the moon made of warpstone can either give you chaos mutations or outright turn you into a beastman. That's what warpstone does to humans. Also, vampires can apparently use warpstone somewhat fine because they're vampires, and thus not vulnerable to Chaos mutation (at least not at that level of exposure).
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We had a goblin with literally prosthetic warpstone teeth, Mathilde and Gretel handled warpstone tokens without more concern than avoiding direct contact .

Direct evidence that immediate harm from contact with small amounts is limited
 
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