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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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picklepikkl said:
On the flip side, though, there is also value in preserving their "culture"
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In all honesty, the We don't really have a culture. They are essentially a single hermit member of their own species, whose long term memory isn't strong enough to remember their own parent, or even the location of other members of their species.

Imagine finding a single highly intelligent but completely isolated hunter with superpowers in the woods somewhere. He doesn't remember where he's from, but his life is otherwise fine in his opinion. After a bit of back and forth the hunter likes not only you, but also your town, though he doesn't understand it. He also literally shits solid gold ingots by the way. I can see arguments into making sure he doesn't let his incredible hunting skills stagnate out of naivety after he becomes filthy rich, but how important is it to preserve his "culture" beyond what he himself cares about?

Not to mention that this We is probably not the only We in the world. So there's probably not much culture being irretrievably lost.
 
[X] [WE] Scavenge the Gauntlet
[X] [WE] Bounty System


[X] [COLLEGE] 5 favors for a full translation of the Cathayan books
[X] [LIBRARY] Linguistics (Dwarf Antiquarian), The Eonir of Laurelorn (Imperial Extensive & Esoteric, Dwarf Extensive), Waystones (Imperial Extensive, Dwarf Extensive)



[X] [BOON] I know just what to spend it on...
 
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[X] [BOON] Save it until the Karak is wealthy enough to afford my ambition.

I really don't want to use the boon until the Karak is in a better position.
 
Rafin said:
In all honesty, the We don't really have a culture. They are essentially a single hermit member of their own species, whose long term memory isn't strong enough to remember their own parent, or even the location of other members of their species.

Imagine finding a single highly intelligent but completely isolated hunter with superpowers in the woods somewhere. He doesn't remember where he's from, but his life is otherwise fine in his opinion. After a bit of back and forth the hunter likes not only you, but also your town, though he doesn't understand it. He also literally shits solid gold ingots by the way. I can see arguments into making sure he doesn't let his incredible hunting skills stagnate out of naivety after he becomes filthy rich, but how important is it to preserve his "culture" beyond what he himself cares about?

Not to mention that this We is probably not the only We in the world. So there's probably not much culture being irretrievably lost.
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Yeah, that's why I put culture in scare quotes, because I couldn't think of a better short term for it. Identity?

At such a point in time that the We themselves (itself? themself?) comes to us and goes "we have decided that hunting isn't a fulfillment of our values anymore, we'd like to put our efforts to other purposes, let's just trade silk and labor for shinies and food," then by all means, I want to respect the We's self-determination and go "yeah, ok, go for it." But I am extremely leery of telling a hunter culture, even a "culture" that consists of exactly one person, that hunting is a waste of their time and it would be simpler if we just traded with them for all their food needs. Even if it's true and they would believe us!

It's like the principle of Chesterton's Fence. I don't know what value "maintaining their identity as hunters" has to the We, and so I don't want to mess with it. If they want to discard it, OK, that's their right and they're the ones (one? argh grammar!) qualified to have opinions. But until that point, I'm gonna support options that preserve it.
 
BoneyM said:
You sit down with the Weaver currently wearing the Ivory Circlet on one leg, and begin to discuss the possibilities.
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I wonder how much that Ivory Circlet is worth in terms of protein? Or in terms of raw silk. I imagine that once the we get an idea of buying stuff getting another of that would be the first thing that they would want.
 
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picklepikkl said:
Yeah, that's why I put culture in scare quotes, because I couldn't think of a better short term for it. Identity?

At such a point in time that the We themselves (itself? themself?) comes to us and goes "we have decided that hunting isn't a fulfillment of our values anymore, we'd like to put our efforts to other purposes, let's just trade silk and labor for shinies and food," then by all means, I want to respect the We's self-determination and go "yeah, ok, go for it." But I am extremely leery of telling a hunter culture, even a "culture" that consists of exactly one person, that hunting is a waste of their time and it would be simpler if we just traded with them for all their food needs. Even if it's true and they would believe us!

It's like the principle of Chesterton's Fence. I don't know what value "maintaining their identity as hunters" has to the We, and so I don't want to mess with it. If they want to discard it, OK, that's their right and they're the ones (one? argh grammar!) qualified to have opinions. But until that point, I'm gonna support options that preserve it.
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I dislike the idea of turning the We into what is basicly a spider swarm shaped human.
I'm happy, even eager, to provide them all the knowledge and help they want and accept, but i also want to let them grow independently with only as much guidance as is needed to keep them, and us, able to co exist peacefully.
And that's not just on them to change to acommodate us, but also on us to acommodate them.
 
ichypa said:
Ah, so that's how you're in literally every thread.


...'Kay.

@Omegahugger I am with you. The We are our babies.


Look man, yesterday I finally hit level 40 with Snikch, had him launch a panicked decapitation strike at Karaz-a-Karak before fourteen full stacks of dwarves marched down my throat because I poked Zhufbar too hard, under the impression that it would maybe cause un-confedations or something, or generate a bunch of rebels that would makes the Dwarves too distracted to declare war on me, perhaps permanently taking out an LL in the process.

Instead, I watched in awe as the entire Karaz Ankor went up in flames and got replaced with Orc Rebels.

I could believe a hyper big brain Eshin plot right now.
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...where'd the orc rebels even come from in the Karaz Ankor?

Did you gambit pileup into a Chaos Dwarf pot?
Muninn said:
Has anyone had any thought what might work as a preserved food option for the we? things are ok now but its not unthinkable that something could interrupt supply for them.
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Assuming we go off regular spiders
They only eat live or recently dead food, which is liquified through digestive enzymes injection. This should be a behavior they COULD move away from, but for a nomadic hunting species its a necessary instinct, their liquid meat based diet should go bad at a rate similar to unprocessed milk in warm environments: within hours. Regardless of their capability to overcome instinct, its quite likely that food missing the signs of being fresh(i.e. not warm) may trigger instinctive revulsion.
However, they do scavenge silk and dead insects just fine, so I'd hazard a guess that dry food surfaces don't count.

Their digestive systems can handle sugars and proteins, but they have limited ability to digest fats(note this is probably due to normal spiders not eating things with a fat content, anything which can eat a rodent can digest it). Normal spiders are capable of feeding on nectar and sugar water, though anything with a fiber/cellulose content cannot be digested and get filtered out, liquid sources of proteins and sugar are digested without using any digestive juices.

Conclusion: they could probably eat honey and cheese, but the amounts they could go through would be rather impressive considering the cost of those. They're unlikely to be practical cost wise.
Soups, stews and some forms of porridge should be digestible if RL spiders are any indication, but I'd advise getting an Amber wizard and some halfling cooks to figure out what works.

Interesting the warpstone filtering is simply an adaptation of RL spiders capabilities: they have a built in filtering system to eliminate solids from their gut.

Garlak said:
... Actually that sounds like a great item to get.

A cloak of Invisibility, Illusion or Intangibility!

Most suggestions I see usually bring up stuff we have no idea if we'll use (the cure candle) or some kind of super-purchase like the speed-of-light thing (a battle spell) which... eh, kind of leaves you feeling like there's probably a better way to do the killing anyway.

But "become sneakier"? That's both: something Mathilde does all the time, and; something straight out of the Ulgu spellbook, rather than another Wind of magic.

So maybe what we should be looking into, is what will make things easier for Mathilde, or what will make it so that she doesn't have to cast the Ulgu spells herself.

Moderately Complicated - Magic 3 required to learn, Magic 5 to cast reliably.
P / Cloak Activity: Allows you to perform an action while appearing to perform something entirely different for up to half a minute.
K / Mockery of Death: Causes someone you touch to act and appear dead for several days, or until you end it. They retain all their senses, including sight if their eyes are open, and will still need to breathe and drink.
K / Pall of Darkness: Creates an area of impenetrable blackness within short range that lasts for about a minute or so.
- This is impenetrable to you as well, even your Magesight.
K / Shroud of Invisibility: Makes you invisible for up to half a minute.
- No limitations. Attack, shoot, scream, do what you like, you stay invisible until it expires or is dispelled.
K / Throttling: Sends ropes of darkness a short distance to strangle the target. Lasts until you choose to stop or your concentration is broken.
- Without magical protection or supernatural toughness, the target is helpless from when the spell hits their throat.

Fiendishly Complex - Magic 5 required to learn, Magic 7 to cast reliably.
K / Illusion: You create an illusion at short range that can look, sound, and smell like anything you want. Requires near-constant concentration to maintain.
- Illusion will not be solid. If the illusion is implausible enough to raise suspicion, those subject to it might see through it.
K / Substance of Shadow: A single person or item that falls within a shadow becomes invisible, silent, and insubstantial, though they can selective choose to physically affect the world. Lasts until the item or character is illuminated.

And that's when I remembered that illusion has the rider of "Requires near-constant concentration to maintain".

It's hard to keep it up and do other stuff at the same time. That means that if we can get a really good item of illusion, we can use that to cast the illusion, and do other spellcasting ourselves. Of course, the obvious issue might be that... as a Fiendishly Complex spell (one with an attached note talking about how it requires near-constant concentration to boot) it'll be very limited or low-duration as an item, or have other issues... whereas Invisibility is a tier down at Moderately Complicated.

But, if it does work? That could simplify things for Mathilde, if she's trying to be sneaky but needs to cast multiple spells or keep multiple things going.

Also... Other possibilities include enchanted items of "Pall of Darkness." To get literal smokebombs. Or a hangman's rope, enchanted with Throttling; for those stealth kills.

You want some kind of "killer enchanted spell" for an Ulgu wizard? You should probably get something like "Throttling" or an Invisibility Cloak. Rather than Speed of Light. Get something that is suitable for your profession. i.e. Make your usual style more smooth and effective.
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For Ulgu spells, I'd suggest focusing on spells which must be cast many times or which yo uwant permanent effect of.
And I'd note also that I suspect an item of Illusion has a static preprogrammed illusion since you evidently can't modify it on the fly like the real caster would.

Or which you want applied by and on things which are Not The Wizard and have no spellcasting ability.
 
[X] [LIBRARY] Linguistics (Dwarf Antiquarian), The Eonir of Laurelorn (Imperial Extensive & Esoteric, Dwarf Extensive), Waystones (Imperial Extensive, Dwarf Extensive)
[X] [BOON] Save it until the Karak is wealthy enough to afford my ambition.
[X] [BOON] I have no idea what to spend it on. Put the matter aside for now.
[X] [COLLEGE] 5 favors for a full translation of the Cathayan books
[X] [ROOM] Shrine to Ranald
[X] [ROOM] Wolf's Room
[X] [ROOM] Training Hall
[X] [ROOM] Vault
[X] [WE] Scavenge the Gauntlet

Using the Boon right now basically pigeonholes us into things in the mountain that KaK economic aid helps with. For items outside the Karak now is not a great time for large scale investment from Belegar. I'm not interested in the library or College branch so think we should wait.
 
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[X] [WE] Hunt the Mountains
[X] [WE] Scavenge the Gauntlet

[X] [BOON] I know just what to spend it on...

[X] [ROOM] Vault
[X] [ROOM] Shrine to Ranald
[X] [ROOM] Guest Room

[X] [LIBRARY] Linguistics (Dwarf Antiquarian), The Eonir of Laurelorn (Imperial Extensive & Esoteric, Dwarf Extensive), Waystones (Imperial Extensive, Dwarf Extensive)

[x] [COLLEGE] 5 favors for a full translation of the Cathayan books

[X] [DWARF] Have a Grandmaster Engineer have a go at the Stirland Repeater - 8 favors
 
[X] [WE] Hunt the Mountains
[X] [BOON] I know just what to spend it on...
[X] [ROOM] Vault
[X] [ROOM] Trophy Room
[X] [ROOM] Guest Room
[X] [ROOM] Gyrocopter Hangar
[X] [LIBRARY] Linguistics (Dwarf Antiquarian), The Eonir of Laurelorn (Imperial Extensive & Esoteric, Dwarf Extensive), Waystones (Imperial Extensive, Dwarf Extensive)
[X] [COLLEGE] 5 favors for a full translation of the Cathayan books
[X] [DWARF] Have a Grandmaster Engineer have a go at the Stirland Repeater - 8 favors
[X] [PURCHASE] No purchase.
 
fictionfan said:
I wonder how much that Ivory Circlet is worth in terms of protein? Or in terms of raw silk. I imagine that once the we get an idea of buying stuff getting another of that would be the first thing that they would want.
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Given it's an enchanted item, it doesn't really compute that way. You can't buy favors.
 
picklepikkl said:
At such a point in time that the We themselves (itself? themself?) comes to us and goes "we have decided that hunting isn't a fulfillment of our values anymore, we'd like to put our efforts to other purposes,
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I specifically asked @BoneyM because I had similar concerns. But from his answer it seems that at least consciously the We don't have habits or hobbies like that at all. They didn't ask us where to go hunt, they asked us what to do about food without having to leave. I asked BoneyM wether the We had any thoughts or feelings about any of the options that go beyond practicalities and they don't appear to have any.
picklepikkl said:
But I am extremely leery of telling a hunter culture, even a "culture" that consists of exactly one person, that hunting is a waste of their time and it would be simpler if we just traded with them for all their food needs.
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But we aren't doing that. Only two options do that. The option I vote for specifically has the We retaining their Hunter caste as their main food source and uses them to hunt living sentient prey.
The We never cared about the thrill of the hunt. They lived of Skaven and Goblins, going specifically for scouts, stragglers and other easy victims with no backup. And nothing says they will suddenly stick to only scavenging half-dead enemies after battles in the Gauntlet.

The Mountains would definitely hone their hunting skills, but that would be because of new challenges, not because it preserves their old ones I don't even know if the We ever killed and ate anything bigger than an individual Hunter in living memory. And who knows what kinds of beasts the Mountains hold.
 
[X] [WE] Hunt the Badlands

[X] [WE] Hunt the Mountains

[X] [WE] Bounty System

The We don't need to be tame spiders... I think the the Gauntlet is a bad idea, but any of these three ideas are acceptable to me and have merits.

[X] [BOON] I know just what to spend it on...

The Great Library is a long term project that will be plenty affordable as long as it is sensibly paced.

[X] [ROOM] Vault

[X] [ROOM] Shrine to Ranald

[X] [ROOM] Provision Room

[X] [ROOM] Armoury

[X] [ROOM] Wolf's Room

[X] [ROOM] Gyrocopter Hangar

[X] [DWARF] No purchase.

[X] [COLLEGE] No purchase.

[X] [PURCHASE] No purchase.
 
[x] [BOON] Save it until the Karak is wealthy enough to afford my ambition.
[X] [BOON] Save it as a trump card to exploit an opportunity or address an emergency.

I favor the latter, but the former is decent if only to give us time to think of good uses of it.

We don't even need a boat, but a huge library is as simple as spending a huge amount of money. At least a (Runed?) Dreadnought is something utterly impossible to get in any other manner.

[x] [COLLEGE] 5 favors for a full translation of the Cathayan books
[X] [DWARF] Have a Grandmaster Engineer have a go at the Stirland Repeater - 8 favors

If it's secret ninjutsu techniques, we want the original meaning. If it's not, it's just an extra three favor, so we can afford the expense.

And I wrote that dwarf vote, so...

I see there's no stoping the wild overspending on the library purchases. The leading vote has, what, 350 gold out of pocket? That's a large percentage of our remaining cash. And just before our budget is liable to increase, too.

Here:
[X] [LIBRARY] Linguistics (Dwarf Antiquarian), The Eonir of Laurelorn (Dwarf Extensive), Waystones (Dwarf Extensive)

Gets everything we need, without spending a dime out of pocket. Eonir and Waystones won't be relevant for at least another turn.
 
I'm not sure why we are having a dwarf have a go at the Stirland repeater. We don't know how to use a rifle, and I don't want to spend the time to learn (and I'm assuming others don't want to either). In addition, it's unlikely that dwarves will give more dwarven secrets out to humans.
 
[X] [WE] Hunt the Badlands
[X] [WE] Hunt the Mountains

[X] [ROOM] Vault
[X] [ROOM] Shrine to Ranald
[X] [ROOM] Trophy Room
[X] [ROOM] Guest Room
[X] [ROOM] Wolf's Room
[X] [ROOM] Training Hall
 
TotallyNotEvil said:
So, besides a big library, what else do people have in mind for the Boon?

I only feel it's "nice", so not really worth the expense.
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A while ago I tried to keep track of the things that had some traction before giving up.
Jyn Ryvia said:
1: Pimped Dreadnought: (once paid off boon is done, might break the K8P bank, might be hard to manage, pimping)

2: Research lab Ironclad: .( far less likely to break the bank, more a floating lab than a than DOOMship, might be underselling the boon.)

3: Sanctuary! ( K8P will welcome wizards and offer Sanctuary if the empire ever bans them again) ( no initial cost to dwarfs, possible unforeseen problems, more narratively cool than something useful unless shit really hits the fan.)

4: EIC monopoly on goods like Spider silk (what it says on the tin, college might see it as one step too far.)

5:First pick from the vaults. (get the coolest stuff, there needs to be stuff worth it that we can't get without the boon.)

6: Custom made gyrocopter/gyrobomber (pimping, can go where we like when we like, kind of already have the practical benefit of this.)

7: Empire calls for aid, the dwarfs of K8PS answers (what it says on the tin, by word of Boney: Empire big, K8P small, anything that the empire needs help with might kill all the dwarfs.)

8: Belegar's hand in marriage (its a meme, but if people are going to keep meming it I'm listing it.)

9: fund and support research projects. (get Research done without having to share credit. its all stuff we could do on our own if we got our shit together)

10: Dwarf engineering guide for humans (humans learn more of the Dwarfs secrets, might be possible, probably not in Belegar's power, but he'll try.)

11: Runes for wizards? (K8P's makes runes for new journeyman, ducklings have a better chance at living college happy, not really doing stuff for Mathy herself.

12: Second peak for humans/halflings etc to live in. (more space, currently a lot of space in Kark Nar)

13: permission for that K8P Institute for Wizards (Hogwarts, but still need to get permission from the College of magics side of things.)

14: The Great Library of Karak Nar: space and a yearly budget to buy books on as many places and topics as possible (or realistic) with a loresmastrer (or three ) on stuff whose job it is recopied and guard as needed. (what it says on the tin, may have to look after it.)

15: Help Dwarfs? (not ignoring you guys, but I need a actual game plan, its all over the place.)

16: Establish fund and support a K8P Research Institute, with Mathilde as the first Director. (what it says on the tin,not connected to Colleges of Magic, will have to look after it)
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Hope it helps
 
veekie said:
...where'd the orc rebels even come from in the Karaz Ankor?
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Letting public order fall to -100 as dwarves generates orks instead of dwarf rebels, presumably due to the unity of their people and the ablity of orcs to grow from any fungus infestation you don't clean. This makes a bit less sense when it's the entire civilzation at once.
 
Mopman43 said:
Given it's an enchanted item, it doesn't really compute that way. You can't buy favors.
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Well there is a conversion somewhere because the colleges do have uses for money, but it is an extremely expensive conversion. Our body weight in silver at a good time only got 1 college favor. They need 3 college favor.
 
Mopman43 said:
You can't buy favors.
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You probably can. Mathilde maybe can't due to sensible game design reasons, but NPCs should definitely be able to, as long as it isn't us players trying to push some loophole past BoneyM. I mean honestly, giving a Dwarf a shit ton of gold should be worth him using his influence among his people to get you things. Same goes for a noble buying magic items or man hours from the colleagues by using an influential Wizard friend as an intermediary.
 
Abhorsen said:
I'm not sure why we are having a dwarf have a go at the Stirland repeater. We don't know how to use a rifle, and I don't want to spend the time to learn (and I'm assuming others don't want to either). In addition, it's unlikely that dwarves will give more dwarven secrets out to humans.
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It's not for us, it's for the factory. And yes, they will, as niter factory and Gotri-Anton exchange already showed in the past.
 
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