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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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uju32 said:
Why do you think that Mathilde was the only scheme in motion, as opposed to the one that was obviously successful?
Ranald is not the only advocate of patience and positioning and contingency planning.
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I would like to remind you that the failure state of a theoretical "sacrifice Abel to free Mathilde" gambit is not "Van Hal died for no gain and the Sylvania campaign failed" but rather "Van Hal died for no gain and now Stirland has to deal with an angry and competent magic-user equipped with the Liber Mortis and a grudge against Sigmar". Which, knowing SV, would probably result in either Vlad von Carnstein getting revived or Belegar having to thank the living dead as a major reason Karak-Eight-Peaks got reclaimed.

It is an utterly unacceptable risk to take unless Sigmar was sure it wouldn't happen, and if Sigmar knew enough to make sure it wouldn't happen he would also know enough to ensure the same results would happen without killing Abel. Like my old suggestion of "clear Abel's crisis of faith via clearly divine/miraculous ressurection(doing literally anything) and then give a divine message to have Abel send Mathilde to help Belegar". We know that Gods can talk to their followers, and when Ranald (much lower on the totem-pole than Sigmar) is physical enough to let an random mage of above average piety know he was sorry for failing to save Abel, Sigmar sure as fuck can do something similar. Even if he has to go through Kasmir to do so.
 
uju32 said:
Why the hell do you think this makes Abelhelm special in the Empire?
As opposed to all those other Sigmar-worshipping people who die with family they are worried about and things they have left undone?

Abelhelm was anywhere from his mid forties to his fifties when he died, having lived a dangerous life hunting magical threats for the Empire, fathering multiple children, and guarding the Liber Mortis. There are Witch Hunters who don't survive their first case. Children who die in the cradle. Soldiers who die in their first battle with Sigmar's name on their lips. Elector Counts who died faster, especially in Stirland.

His family are guarded by Sigmarite Templars. He even got to say goodbye to some of his friends.
The idea that he was owed more, while IC belief for a grieving loved one, just holds zero water as an argument.
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Ummm... I think that there may be a misunderstanding here.

The feeling of betrayal does not exist because Abelhelm was considered "not special enough". It exists because Abbelhelm is special in the wrong way, an aberration.

You see, spellcasting priests in general and Kasmir in particular usually succeed in divine healing. This is not our world where the null hypothesis is "failure". It's a world where the null hypothesis on magical healing is "success".

This changes things a lot. It changes things from "why was Abelhelm not important enough for Sigmar to interfere" into "why was a person that embodied the ideals of Sigmar better than most, saved countless people and could save countless more, given less grace than the randos Kasmir healed"? I must stress I am not denigrating the randos, every life is precious. I am simply asking why Abelhelm's, in particular, wasn't when he has done so much good.

And yes, OoC it was because of a dice roll, but that does not actually explain the why. Boney always makes an in-character reason for dice rolls, and as far as Mathilde and the questers are aware, that reason is that Sigmar is a poo-poo head.
 
storryeater said:
And yes, OoC it was because of a dice roll, but that does not actually explain the why. Boney always makes an in-character reason for dice rolls, and as far as Mathilde and the questers are aware, that reason is that Sigmar is a poo-poo head.
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Specificaally, as far as Kasmir (who is our Sigmar expert) is aware, the reason is "because Sigmar needed Abelhelm quickly".
BoneyM said:
"I've spoken to Morrites, but they can't or won't tell me much. I don't know if Abelhelm is sequestered within Morr's realm or if he's by Sigmar's side. But the only possible reason that I can see for him not healing Abelhelm is that he's doing more good there than he could here." You can think of another explanation, but you manage to swallow it down
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With the added possibility that maybe Sigmar just does favour random civvies over Abelhelm.

storryeater said:
Sigmar did not save Abelhelm, but through me He has saved hundreds since. So either the life of Sylvanian peasants are of greater import than an Elector Count that spent his life fighting, or Sigmar decided Abelhelm's work was finished."
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Raigel said:
i don't know if it was mentioned before.... but the towers are gounded in the mountain!

That means that everything that gets sucked up by the grounding goes straight to energy reserves.... frick.... we need a functional college straight away!!!

Also, i really hope we can create to belebro a new bro, thorbro. We, albeit unknowingly, gave him and the karaz ankor a powerful boost. And grombribro really should step in and give thorgrim some encouraging words.

I can already picture it: he got on the gyrocarriage, looked at us really hard thus telling us to keep our trap shut, stayed out of everyone way during the flight and when we finally meet thorbro he gives him a really hard headwash to put his head on straight again and actually tells him he knows about the "secret" functions and that they can autorepair if there is enough of them active, thus making him start considering the retaking of other holds. AND will also tell him to be a real bro to belebro and his (murder-)adorable pocket loremaster.

@BoneyM, i summon ye from the unfathomable depths of the earth and implore you to give this unfortunate soul and it's brethren some light!!
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But there's no actual questions in that post.
 
@BoneyM , I apologise for bothering you in Christmas, but since you are here, I may as well ask:

If we use a Great Deed in a way that would produce another Great Deed (as a direct result, not a rules lawyer result, say, if we get evidence the Grand Theogonist is a chaos cultist and we use the deed to make the Emperor listen to us and consider the evidence, not if we ask for a barony and then use it to raise an army and kill chaos worshippers) would that be a wash (+-0) Great Deed wise, or would that refund the Great Deed we spent due to us using it in such a way for a true +1?
 
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BoneyM said:
Shackle inaccessible, the rest long unpowered and no longer understood.
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You know its probably a bad sign my immediate reaction to this is assuming K8P puts enough juice into the system is "turn one on, lets see what happens :D"

Not in the least cause the pump one sounds like it would at a minimum drown at least one province.
 
Zero Gravitas said:
That's true but also really not an argument for Mathilde to have any loyalty towards Sigmar or any Sigmarite institutions. Indeed a grudge wouldn't be inappropriate.
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Do note that the Empire is a Sigmarite institution, before you go further.

Zero Gravitas said:
Like it is pretty indisputable that Sigmar has been a net drain and entirely unhelpful. Maybe the meeting with the Ulricans will provide an opportunity to balance the scales...
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This is untrue.

The conspiracy that was blackmailing Mathilde and her Master had it's members uncovered by Sigmarite Templars. Ranald put his finger on the scales of the investigation, but it was launched by an ex-Witch Hunter, and carried out by Sigmarite worshippers, trained by Sigmarite institutions.
The Grey Order killed them, but they didn't do the scut work.

Hell, the vast number of Stirlanders who came on the expedition here were also Sigmarites IIRC.
Polytheists, mind, but still Sigmarites.

Before Abelmar's death, Mathilde quite literally went to Kasimir, Priest of Sigmar, for healing after training accidents.
And I distinctly remember Mathilde and Kasimir using a mix of Divine Sigmarite magic and Shadow magic to slaughter the Singing King's army.
No complaints about Sigmar then.

Mathilde's grudge is personal, and colors her view of everything. Do not consider it to be gospel.
As the example of Thorgrim just demonstrated vividly, personal animus does not mean the other person is not doing as good a job as can be done.
Omegahugger said:
I would like to remind you that the failure state of a theoretical "sacrifice Abel to free Mathilde" gambit is not "Van Hal died for no gain and the Sylvania campaign failed" but rather "Van Hal died for no gain and now Stirland has to deal with an angry and competent magic-user equipped with the Liber Mortis and a grudge against Sigmar". Which, knowing SV, would probably result in either Vlad von Carnstein getting revived or Belegar having to thank the living dead as a major reason Karak-Eight-Peaks got reclaimed.

It is an utterly unacceptable risk to take unless Sigmar was sure it wouldn't happen, and if Sigmar knew enough to make sure it wouldn't happen he would also know enough to ensure the same results would happen without killing Abel. Like my old suggestion of "clear Abel's crisis of faith via clearly divine/miraculous ressurection(doing literally anything) and then give a divine message to have Abel send Mathilde to help Belegar". We know that Gods can talk to their followers, and when Ranald (much lower on the totem-pole than Sigmar) is physical enough to let an random mage of above average piety know he was sorry for failing to save Abel, Sigmar sure as fuck can do something similar. Even if he has to go through Kasmir to do so.
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-Perhaps IC Sigmar thought he had a better grasp on Mathilde's loyalties than you'd think.

Perhaps Abelhelm getting time to talk to stage a dramatic deathbed scene, and hand over both the Liber Mortis AND the list of conspirators who were blackmailing Mathilde was not entirely coincidental IC, even when no one else who charged the gates with him did.
Perhaps Sylvania was being Sylvania, and the gods don't act freely there without significant cost.

Or perhaps things really were that dire that such a gamble was considered necessary.
The confluence of a skaven civil war centered on K8P and a god-favored Grey Wizard making for the best chance of retaking K8P before the Karaz Ankor's battery reserves ran down is not a common combination of events.

Because do remember that the Dawi are a critical backstop for the Empire. If they fail, it significantly complicates the Empire's strategic situation.

-Order Gods, at least AFAIK, don't often talk freely to their followers AFAIK. Whether by choice, or because the worshippers won't understand.
Ranald's more social than many of the other male gods, but I have to point out that at Abelhelm's bedside, and for most of Mathilde's stay in Stirland, he did not talk either.

I get the impression that Mathilde's now-Heroic piety and special relationship with a fairly social god are very much skewing our impressions and expectations of the normal god-worshipper relationship.

-I can't swear to it, but I'm fairly sure that Mathilde has never been average Piety.
Average anything is around 10 IIRC.
She started around Piety 15.
 
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uju32 said:
It might even help explain why the skaven seem to have a hard-on for Dwarven Karaks in particular.
If they are basically stable sources of tamed magical energy, I can see how the Grey Seers or the Horned Rat in particular would find uses for that.
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K8P was generating warpstone constantly. It seems likely that subverting the waystones to make more warpstone is the goal.
 
uju32 said:
Why the hell do you think this makes Abelhelm special in the Empire?
As opposed to all those other Sigmar-worshipping people who die with family they are worried about and things they have left undone?
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In this case, it'd be the fact that Sigmar very specifically had a chance to do something, and didn't. Yes, we know out of character that it was because the dice said so. In character, even Kasimir, an extremely pious priest was shaken by his god apparently abandoning him when he was needed if not most, then a lot more than usual.
 
picklepikkl said:
Maybe? The skaven seemed to ignore Kvinn-Wyr, though, which is where the warpstone-covered waystone was located, which seems to run counter to this hypothesis.
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The trolls had Kvinn-Wyr. We don't know when they got it, or whether Clan Mors had been working on taking/holding it prior to the start of the civil war - only that the trolls had it by the time we arrived, and that killing off that many trolls would have been hellish and any Skaven clan that tried it during the civil war would have been extinguished.

Skaven are known to seek out warpstone, but that doesn't mean they'll kill themselves to do so when there's an impassible obstacle.
 
kingreaper said:
Skaven are known to seek out warpstone, but that doesn't mean they'll kill themselves to do so when there's an impassible obstacle.
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I mean...you say that, but they very nearly did that against Nagash.

They only stopped after very nearly collapsing the under empire and nearly getting at least one member of the council of thirteen killed.

TBF also the fighting only stopped cause Nagash was barely in a better state.

I think its best to say that once an obstacle that gives them a headache presents itself they'll wait and figure out a sneaky-cunning way to get through first.
 
Hey so, first time making a comment here, and I had some thoughts about Valaya. We've gotten some pretty sweet lore on the ancestor gods, and I've gotten the impression that dwarves express worship through good work, that their gods do not act through miracles but through dwarves acting by their teachings. Grimnir seems to be waxing in worship with Thorgrim declaring an Age of Vengeance, with good work being in the form of clearing out grudges. Grungni might have been the most venerated ancestor god during the dwarves' partnership with the elves, with all of the focus on runic and magical progress.

It just makes me wonder, was Valaya ever given importance to this degree? I mean, she IS credited as the founder of most karaks, dwarven culture, khazalid, protection from magic, and runes. Yet, she's seen almost as a simple fertility goddess, or one of ale. Reading about Gazul having an aspect that was not fit to be discussed anywhere made me think if Valaya had something of the same.

Valaya is ancestor god of Home & Hearth, Healing, and Brewing. Not only that, she's seen as the protector of dwarves. So, two things stand out to me. Home & Hearth, and protection. Home & Hearth screams 'god of civilization' to me, which seems, y'know, important given how much pride and being dwarves put in their culture. Protection is such a recurring theme in dwarven history and myth, with dwarves having to defend themselves again and again throughout time. So good work is by protecting the Karaz Ankor? Now, that is pretty broad, but considering she is seen as the Ancestor Queen, it might be something left to the royal clans who have the ability to act on the broader side. It brings me to the next headcanon step, that the three primary ancestor gods be seen as patrons on a descending level.

Valaya is patron of the Karaz Ankor as a whole, with a focus on karaks protecting each other (I'd say that the Thorgrim's aircorps is an example), unity through helping your fellow dwarf, and friendship through drink. And repaying dwarf-friends, like Belegar did! It is striving for unified Karaz Ankor and the future of it. This is seen in her tenets such as 'Always protect fellow dwarves from harm, especially at the hands of a dwarf enemy' and 'Always attend to the needs of the young'.

Grungni is patron of the clans, he taught all the skills that dwarves know, and is the one that fills the most in the life of dwarves. You make good work by honoring your clan and maintaining your hold. 'Render repair upon any such structure when it becomes unsafe.', 'Always work a mine to extract all ore and valuable stone to enhance the well-being of the clan and race.' etc etc

Grimnir is patron of the individual, of the warrior and their honor. He is hero figure and that's how he is emulated in the form of slayers. He's the one you call upon on the battlefield, and in fact, most of his tenets address the reader directly on how to behave on the battlefield 'Always assist a fallen comrade-in-arms.', 'Always press home an attack whenever so ordered by a superior.'

So I just talked about dwarves worshiping through good work, and you can certainly venerate Valaya through her brewing and healing aspects, but don't you think it's odd how Valaya is credited to so much, yet seem... minor compared to Grungni and Grimnir? Every dwarf in the heart of the Karaz Ankor owe their home and way of life to Valaya.
I believe her Home & Hearth aspect, at least on the level of kings and thanes, is purposely neglected. Because... what are you offering? Okay, say you're honoring Grimnir. You have returned from battling the enemies of the dwarves and can proudly say you personally struck out several grudges. That's good work. That's worship of Grimnir. Well, how about Grungni? You and your clan have just finished many axes and breastplates for the hold, excelling in the tireless work of maintaining the karak. That's good work. That's worship of Grungni.
Now say you're a king, someone who can trace their lineage directly to Valaya herself, and you try to venerate her by upholding Home & Hearth. ...Welp, failed step one. Even if YOUR karak is doing well, your duty lies also in the well-being of other karaks. Your neighboring karaks fell thousands of years ago, the Karaz Ankor is weak while many clans are either gone or isolated. Through no fault of your own, through no one's really, a karak expected help as demanded by Valaya, and received none. And so you and your hold did shoddy work. And it will continue to be shoddy work until the hold is retaken and you can make sure it does not happen again. Looking to the rest of the Karaz Ankor, you see you aren't the only one being pretty poor at following Valaya in her protector aspect, and ain't that something.

So you write down the grudges for those responsible, and you act with vengeance in the name of Grungni and Grimnir, and you protect what you have left in her name. But you are still reminded that what you are protecting is what's left of the people you and your ancestors could not save.

And you know, that's gotta be really tough to bear.

I believe that the dwarves are weighed down not only by grudges, but also by failing in an entire aspect of Valaya, Home & Hearth.

(wow this got headcanon-y and long. I was mostly just surfing the warhammer wiki and I was kinda baffled how epic Valaya's accomplishments were, yet still got shunted into a generic fantasy fertility goddess while playing second fiddle to her husbands. 's just ya know, how CULTURE is credited to her, like clans, art, language, fucking *runes*, and it's like, barely given any importance in canon stuff.)
 
kingreaper said:
K8P was generating warpstone constantly. It seems likely that subverting the waystones to make more warpstone is the goal.
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Or it could just be that all that tamed power was being funnelled to the Horned Rat, allowing it to act more freely in the materium.
Dunno how many dwarven karaks are under skaven control though.
So it's just speculation that could be wildly wrong.

adaer said:
In this case, it'd be the fact that Sigmar very specifically had a chance to do something, and didn't. Yes, we know out of character that it was because the dice said so. In character, even Kasimir, an extremely pious priest was shaken by his god apparently abandoning him when he was needed if not most, then a lot more than usual.
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IC, we don't actually know what other demands there were on his time.
As has been demonstrated to us repeatedly by the Ork duo, gods fumble, make mistakes, and have to prioritize resources.
It doesn't always work.

Ranald didn't cheat probability so hard that an Elven healing potion fell into our hands either.
And he attended personally. So there was something up.

Of course, if Sigmar was there, would we have known? We didn't have Avatar then.
Presumably Kasimir should have noticed if he was around.
 
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