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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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OK now that it's morning and not past midnight for me I may as well put down what my thoughts on the idea that Sigmar planned Van Hall's death to get Mathilde to help the dwarfs. It's a little more complex than 'Sigmar is mean' though I can see how it could have come out that way from what I said last night.

So starting from the beginning, the supposed Sigmarite scheme would have involved 'calling Van Hall home', willingly and knowingly letting him die, leaving a grieving young woman with her life in shambles, her dearest friend dead and in possession of the Liber Mortis. This is a book that has been described as being so potent that a single badly translated chapter could turn the pettiest necromancer in Silvania into an existential threat to the empire. What would it turn Mathilde Webber, magister in all but name at that point of the Colleges of Magic into if she decided to wield it in order to turn back death? Did Sigmar have some kind of contingency against one or more imperial provinces being scoured of life? Does he often take those kinds of risks with the lives of his people? It's either unbelievably reckless for infinitesimal odds of success or is cheapens Mathilde's actual moral choice because Sigmar Plans (TM) would have handled everything.

Finally there is another more insidious aspect to this. Sigmar making use of his own priests his own faithful in his plans is fair enough, but manipulating someone who hates him, using that hate as leverage, since the thread's decision to leave the Empire was at least in part informed by the issues Disdain for Sigmar, crosses the lines into turning everyone into a puppet for the greater goal of Sigmar. The comparison to Tzeench was not idle on my part, it robs the character of agency and imposes no limit upon divine meddling all under that most detestable of banners 'the gods hurt you because they love you' (or love other people as the case maybe). Come to think of it there's a bit of Nurgle in there as well...
 
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veekie said:
Well, he WAS a barbarian warlord. You don't get there by being safe and rational!

But, cutting to the point. Just imagine the AP Hell for Sigmar with the stupid dispute going on.
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Yeah I agree that what happened was Sigmar being unable to intervene and OOC I do not blame him for it, though Mathilde does IC. I was just laying out my feelings towards a hypothetical Schemer Sigmar and the reasons behind them.
 
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Unintended Consequences
  • Apocrypha
    • Mathilde walked briskly down the streets of Altdorf in the sweltering summer heat, scowling at nothing in particular as she went about her business. Or at least, it appeared that way. It certainly had nothing to do with the brightly lit torches left spluttering in her wake, their hot fumes dancing her way even as the flames dimmed. Nor did it have anything to do with the large crowds of revelers in the streets, preventing the manifestation of her preferred (and famous!) form of travel. It couldn't possibly be associated with the smouldering banners and stands contributing to the former belonging to the Bright Order, an organization which she held a deep respect for. Even in spite of the occasional implosion. Yes, that includes you, Adela. And it most certainly, absolutely, under no uncertain terms, in no way, shape, or form, undeniably had no connection with--

    "Sigmartag! Best time of the year by far. Don't you agree, Magister? Not the religious parts, of course. Arguing of that kind's no good. But everybody's so happy and cheerful! Oh, and thanks for agreeing to meet me here! I certainly didn't expect your schedule to have an opening this late, you made it sound like you were booked! Ooh, is that a sausage vendor? I think I'll grab one. No, two! Some proper food, that! The halflings do their best, but nothing beats food from home!"

    Her intent for acquiring provisions announced, Panoramia dashed into the crowd.

    "Bah, humbug," grumped Mathilde. What was Sigmartag? An opportunity to pass candy to children? A time for EIC coin-purses to grow fatter than they already were? She had work to do! Ranks to climb, mountains to obtain, spells to earn, favors to claim! "No, Mathilde, nobody wants to listen to your hastily improved revision of a tactically relevant insightful doctrine shattering lecture against the Enemies of Man because we have to celebrate Sigmar. What did he ever do?"

    She closed her eyes and pointed in a random direction, looking to prove her point. A nudge answered her prayer.

    "Praise be to Sigmar! On this glorious day..." a fat priest in gaudy garments droned on.

    "Exactly! I mean, well, fine. That. But just look at him! No combat aptitude at all. And has he even met a dwarf?"

    "Well, yes, once. It was--" a man helpfully interjected.

    "Not you!" Glaring, she turned to the interloper, her shadow twisting unnaturally in the brightly lit festival.

    "Oh my dear Sigmar. That hat. Those robes. And a terrifying sign of magical power. You're the Dämmerlichtreiter! They say you singlehandedly saved all of Stirland!"

    What. Okay, roll with it. "Well, yes, technically..."

    "I'm a big fan. You ended the corrupt merchants behind the Haupt-Anderssens in a single ride!"

    "You're not entirely wrong there, but it was more of a..."

    "You killed an ancient vampire in single combat!"

    "Well okay but that was more luck than..."

    "You tore Castle Drakenhof to the ground with a single glare!"

    "Cannons! That was cannons!"

    "Marvelous! Together, with dwarves?"

    "Of course! We couldn't have done it without the Throng of Zhufbar. And spending time in Karak Eight Peaks has-"

    "My word. You must be the greatest Sigmarite of our age!"

    What.

    "The strictures are clear. You've promoted the unity of His Empire by paving the path to Sylvania and killing His enemies, you've spent the last few years aiding Dwarves, you've..."

    Right, time to go. Making sure the man was still distracted counting speech points with his fingers, she cast a hasty Invisibility and retreated. Mindhole was also a seriously appealing choice, damn the consequences.

    "Panoramia!" she called out, hopping to look over the heads of the crowd. "Where-are-you-get-over-here-we-need-to-go-now!"

    Ugh. Sigmartag.
     
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  • Apocrypha
    • Actually everything that happened in this quest is a Tzeentch plot all along.

    BonyM is actually writing down the 'what has been and will be' of Mathilde Webber in relation to Tzeench's plot to level the strengths of other deities and cause Max Chaos.
     
    NHO said:
    Worse. He's gonna prevent looming End of Dwarves just to spite you.
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    Belegar raised his gauntleted hand towards Thorgrim. "I am incorrigible." He then snapped his fingers.

    Power reserves restored, the voice echoing in Thorgrim's head said.

    There was a moment of silence. Then--

    "I need a drink," Thorgrim declared. "...on second thought, make that a whole barrel."
     
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    BoneyM said:
    But there's no actual questions in that post.
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    Uh... right... i was all excited and forgot to write it...sorry...

    Is there a way for us, using our multi-sight to realize that sometime has gone on between the crown of belebro/K8P and thorbro crown/KaK?

    Also can we eventually try to make sure that belebro and thorbro actually ear each other out and don't come to wordy fisticuff, thus reaching some kind of understanding?
     
    HanEmpire said:
    What rolls? What did I miss over the holidays?
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    The dual somewhat heated thread topics of Thorgrim not sending assistance and Abelhelm dying. They were just terrible rolls. There was no preplanned conspiracy and it's been weird to read, well skim, all the posts about how terrible a given person or god is when it was just the result of a dice roll.

    I mean I get it, kind of, as it's somewhat of a bazaar game, but it seems odd to me to adamantly and sometimes emotively ascribe complex Tzeentchian plots and ill motives to random chance. There could be no such premeditated plan in either case (because we saw the key rolls), and it's all post-hoc pattern-searching for meaning and ascribing made-up motives... when the reality is we just had low rolls, which were translated in accordance with the principles and agenda of the game and world.
     
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    Yes, but the in-game past, present, and future all bend to accommodate the results of said rolls. Thorgrim might have only been so brusque and unsupportive due to one or two bad rolls, but now that they happened he is forevermore the kind of person who would make such decisions (barring character development due to, you guessed it, rolls).

    Also, a bad roll could have been adjudicated differently. Like, Thorgrim could have not answered the message at all because he was currently involved in fighting off a bigger Waaagh somewhere else. But BoneyM decided that the current situation makes more sense, given his world, the characterization of everyone involved, and the specific number on the dice roll.
     
    If you take that view it seems rather unfair to blame Thorgrim. He's then just a pawn of the dice.

    I mean yes, I also was quite shocked and maybe even angry, initially, at the response he sent. But... it was the dice, you know? Similar with Sigmar and Kasmir fucking up his healing rolls.

    By all means look for pattern and meaning, it's very human, but then also getting strongly emotive about the patterns and interpretations being ascribed...
    Rafin said:
    Also, a bad roll could have been adjudicated differently. Like, Thorgrim could have not answered the message at all because he was currently involved in fighting off a bigger Waaagh somewhere else.
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    To me, as a GM, that would have been a higher but still failing roll. "Can't help, but for a comprehensible reason". The 2 for Thorgrim means you pretty much have to ask "what is the second worst possible way he could decline." So no, I don't think it could have meant Thorgrim was just overcommitted elsewhere.
     
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    Alliterate said:
    To me, as a GM, that would have been a higher but still failing roll. "Can't help, but for a comprehensible reason". The 2 for Thorgrim means you pretty much have to ask "what is the second worst possible way he could decline." So no, I don't think it could have meant Thorgrim was just overcommitted elsewhere.
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    I was about to write something echoing your post, but decided against it, cos of said echo.

    Question for you: what would have been the worst way he could have reacted? I can't think of anything that stays in character...
     
    Alliterate said:
    If you take that view it seems rather unfair to blame Thorgrim. He's then just a pawn of the dice.

    I mean yes, I also was quite shocked and maybe even angry, initially, at the response he sent. But... it was the dice, you know? Similar with Sigmar and Kasmir fucking up his healing rolls.

    By all means look for pattern and meaning, it's very human, but then also getting strongly emotive about the patterns and interpretations being ascribed...

    To me, as a GM, that would have been a higher but still failing roll. "Can't help, but for a comprehensible reason". The 2 for Thorgrim means you pretty much have to ask "what is the second worst possible way he could decline." So no, I don't think it could have meant Thorgrim was just overcommitted elsewhere.
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    The thing is if we do not ascribe agency to the characters in the quest the entire edifice of the story crumbles, their actions good or bad mean nothing therefore the narrative means nothing. The dice is just an OOC tool for deciding how the story will go, it's not an excuse for poor action nor a reason to discount good action in character.
     
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    IronFist said:
    I was about to write something echoing your post, but decided against it, cos of said echo.

    Question for you: what would have been the worst way he could have reacted? I can't think of anything that stays in character...
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    On a 1? I'd have been thinking "hmm, could there be an actual disaster befalling the Karaz Ankor right now?" Maybe some further rolls.
    If I already had the failing power system in mind, that would've been a candidate.


    DragonParadox said:
    The thing is if we do not ascribe agency to the characters in the quest the entire edifice of the story crumbles, their actions good or bad mean nothing therefore the narrative means nothing.
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    That seems to presuppose we discount the hundreds of people very engaged in the agency of the protagonist. Which I don't think we should do, so I want to reject that statement.

    Regardless, there's a difference between ascribing motivations- which I empathise with and understand- and getting worked up over those ascribed motivations.
     
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    While dice may control actions, the limits of what can be acchieved need to also be set to fit the characters.
    Thorgrim just, not sending aid, is very unlikely event, but not impossible, and he has plenty of reason not to send more good copters into their likely deaths. And he also had no reason to expect the reclamation to succeed, nobody had, it was an insane level of protagonist power and rng just lining up just right to change the world.
    I think lot of the dislike simply comes from reader bias towards Mathilde, and from hindsight.

    Sigmar, bit more difficult to understand as we have little knowledge of him as a person, and even less of his activities at the time.
    Maybe he genuinely was too busy (not omnipotent), maybe he was not even aware of the prayer (not omniscient), maybe it was an insane plot to get Mathilde to go liberate K8P (almost certainly not), maybe Van Hal was needed to save the afterlife (probably not).
    I'm personally going for a mix of Sigmar not being all powerful or all knowing, and Van Hal not being that important in the greater scheme of things except maybe in hindsight (and his death may have ended in making the world a better place than he ever could have in life).
     
    Alliterate said:
    That seems to presuppose we discount the hundreds of people engaged in the agency of the protagonist. Which I don't think we should do, so I want to reject that statement.
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    That is rather besides my point which was about the commonly agreed upon illusion of the world with which we the players engage in. Here let me give an example:

    *roll 100 for Gunnars intervention*

    *Gunnars saves Mathilde from being trussed up and air mailed to KaK at the very least*

    Someone then suggests that maybe we owe Gnnars some help with his task since he was so helpful to Mathilde IC.

    "That as just a high roll, we don't owe him anything," comes the reply.

    Do you see how disengaging that is?
     
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    DragonParadox said:
    The thing is if we do not ascribe agency to the characters in the quest the entire edifice of the story crumbles, their actions good or bad mean nothing therefore the narrative means nothing. The dice is just an OOC tool for deciding how the story will go, it's not an excuse for poor action nor a reason to discount good action in character.
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    How the hell do we explain Sigmar's refusal to heal Von Hal, then? Like, there is no conceivable reason for him to not heal him other than RNG deciding "nope" and taking the matter out of his hands. Divine magic's entire point is that it's reliable and consistent. Unless Sigmar has developed advanced precognition and learned that Mathilde wouldn't end up joining the K8P expedition unless Van Hal died, and that her joining the expedition would make all the difference in the world, there is no conceivable reason for it.

    Sigmar doesn't need to be omnipotent. One of his spellcasting warrior priests was desperately calling for a healing spell. Even if he were somehow blind to the immediate area around one of his warrior priests during a spellcasting, that act alone should have given him all the info he needed.
     
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    SaltyWaffles said:
    How the hell do we explain Sigmar's refusal to heal Von Hal, then? Like, there is no conceivable reason for him to not heal him other than RNG deciding "nope" and taking the matter out of his hands. Divine magic's entire point is that it's reliable and consistent. Unless Sigmar has developed advanced precognition and learned that Mathilde wouldn't end up joining the K8P expedition unless Van Hal died, there is no conceivable reason for it.
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    well, for one thing actually personal power matters with divine magic in the RP priests have magic ratings just like wizards. Divine magic is safer but arguably no less reliable in terms of actually successfully achieving the miracle than a wizard casting a spell is.

    The difference is priests aren't at any risk of tzeentchs curse or miscasting and exploding.
     
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