Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
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SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
not for the dwarves it doesn't. Their engineering feats are actually getting better it's their runic lore that's almost completely lost. So lost relics are pretty much all lost runic items of one sort or another.
It's more accurate to say their engineering is recovering, and now less reliant on runes.
SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
I suppose that's ultimately more accurate. Their abilities to do the things they used to is now more reliant on pure ordinary physics rather than magical feats of engineering, but ultimately solving a problem is solving a problem no matter how you approach it from an engineering stand point so yea fair. That said their lost relics are pretty much all runic from previous ages because they relied on runic knowledge to do what pure physics couldn't at the time.
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It's still silly to think he would throw away or ignore anything else he finds in his search.
He is still someone who is going on adventures to find stuff, getting him to agree to grab old books and tablets and scrolls while he is at it can't be that hard, especially if we agree to help or fund or something while we are at it.
SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
Oh sure I agree with you, lost lore if found is absolutely something I think dwarves would be happy to take home. I'd certainly be up for some old hold spelunking to track down old vaults and armouries for lost lore.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
I'd be wary of any such statements. The guy's millenia old. Certainly our actions have had some impact on him, but to say that it makes prior characterization "meaningless" is to far overstate things.
I did not say it makes his previous characterization meaningless, but rather that it made that particular bit of characterization meaningless and ultimately I do not think it is down to Mathilde alone either, it's the reconquest of K8P in its entirety, having hope where there was none before. Think about the terms in which forging the runes for his anvil were mentioned
'He poured his anger at the enemies of the dwarfs into making runes for his anvil', that is what he was doing in his workshop. There was no hope so he might as well kill some grobi and elgi with his last acts of spite. Now there is hope, real manifest and obvious eight peaks worth of it that Kragg said he would die rather than allow to be lost again. That is not a small change even for someone like Kragg.
It's not that we have changed his character to such an enormous extend (though still probably more than anyone else in the last few centuries). It's that we've changed his circumstances, so now there will be a whole different facet of his character on display.
If you cure someone from a terminal illness, that doesn't change their character, but it will still massively change how they act (which may then cause their character to change, but that's a knock-on effect).
That's just not true though. The rural lower classes do have valuable portable things to steal. Food, mainly. And livestock, potentially*. Most thieves will also be poor and hungry, after all, so that's what they'll steal, the basics to sustain life. You're massively whitewashing thieves and conmen here. It's much easier and safer to steal from and defraud from the poor, as they don't have the security that the rich and middle class have, nor the ability to mobilise people to look for you. The poor will probably lynch you if they catch you in the act as well, but that doesn't mean people won't try.
Nearly all victims of crime will be the poor, because nearly all people are poor. They'll also disproportionately be the victims of crime, simply because their fellow poor will be the people who are most desperate and so will resort to crime, and the people in close proximity to them will also generally be poor. Theft is generally going to be a crime of desperation, just as it very often is in the real world. Warhammer Roleplay doesn't dress up these social realities, it revels in them, and even exaggerates them.
* Sheep (apparently the majority of crimes committed in pre-modern rural England and Wales were sheep theft, according to some studies) and cattle rustling, crop theft, and the like, were common in the pre-modern era, and weren't crimes of violence unless the thief was very unlucky. Not to mention poaching and wood theft from commons where there limits on what an individual household was allowed. Ot the classic practices of changing sheeps earmarks or cattle's brands, or the more individual crimes of shearing sheep that belonged to other people. You name a way of stealing from the rural poor, and people did it. It's the same for the waged urban poor, when they became a thing. They had coin, and so it was even easier. That's where the gamblers and the con men selling snake oil remedies come in more, although they also plied their trade in the countryside.
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The Wisdom of a Saint
Taken from the restricted section of the Grey Order library.
According to the translator, the writer was "clearly a bit of a tosser" and "schouldn't use thieves cant if he wants to be fancy".
My first meeting with the Saint sums up her strange wisdom rather well.
My traveling group was hiding from a group of greenskin we had earlier avoided by the grace of the gods. Our Taalite guide claimed credit, and a wise man knows not to argue about who's god caused a man to faceplant.
I was chosen for the scouting party, because I was able to move without either huffing from exhaustion or moaning about old injuries. Or perhaps because the guide did not appreciate his sons taste in men.
We had been tracking the greenskin as they had been tracking us, and things were getting increasingly dire. It would not be much longer until they found the camp, and then a lot of blood would flow.
The following events happened with such rapidity that I struggled to comprehend them, so the following is a list of impression in my attempt at a chronological order. If it is confusing and inexplicable, then I have successfully conveyed what meeting the Saint is like.
Now, here is the core of her teachings:
Ranald wants to be entertained
This can mean a daring heist, or a brilliant con. It can also mean puns. She named her greatsword "Moonlight Wit", which I suppose is one way to understand the stricture to live by your wits, not your sword. Being a tiny woman likely helps with this, though the contrast is a lot less funny after you've seen her chop through an ork band with the put-upon air of a housewife finding an unexpected patch of weeds in her garden.
If you look for omens or interventions, look for the embarrassing, inconvenient, or silly. If a cat is involved, you know it was Ranald. The chance of intervention goes up as the outcome becomes increasingly funny. It follows then that if you wish for good luck, you must ensure that the failure of your enemy and your own success are more amusing than the alternative. In the following, I will give you a number of ways to ensure this.
…
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Taken from a journal in the collective library of the Grand Conclave, from the dust accumulated, it hasn't been read since it was placed there. From the remote corner it was placed in, there's no expectation that will change.
I journeyed to Karag Eight Peaks at the behest of Ranald. I know many shun my choice to worship all the gods of man in this regard especially, yet in dire straits they all turn to him regardless. I simply pay my respect beforehand, and so don't find myself in such circumstances.
The journey itself was mostly uneventful, though still unpleasant since one of the other travelers kept making eyes at my son. I knew the type, and feared he would only break his heart. In this, I was sadly proven correct. I am grateful that by the grace of Ranald, the fool lost most of his traveling funds on gambling, and so he couldn't stay long enough to do true damage, and it taught my son a necessary lesson.
I mention this, because it illustrates the lesson that crystalised for me during my stay:
As the gods of men are family, so are we all. So trust in your brothers and sisters, and if you aid them, they shall smile on you. For all his bad reputation, Ranald is no different in this.
Consider Dame Mathilde: You shall not find a child of Sigmar more well regarded among dwarfs anywhere on this earth. Yet she is a known devotee of Ranald. How could this be, if he is truly the god of thieves and liars? They would not stand for it.
Incidentally, I had the chance to discuss theology with the Dame, and she had great insights, especially into the relationship between Ranald and Shallya. There's some very unfortunate claims there, which the Lady handily and compellingly denied. In fact, she claims that the most favored follower of Ranald she has known also enjoys great regard in the eyes of the Lady of Mercy.
This is once again proves the truth that a true follower of the gods cannot only serve one of them. Instead, we must …
AN: Inspired by the Beatified trait, and me wondering what kind of lessons people may learn from Mathilde. And surprisingly on topic, given the ongoing discussion of theology.
According to the translator, the writer was "clearly a bit of a tosser" and "schouldn't use thieves cant if he wants to be fancy".
My first meeting with the Saint sums up her strange wisdom rather well.
My traveling group was hiding from a group of greenskin we had earlier avoided by the grace of the gods. Our Taalite guide claimed credit, and a wise man knows not to argue about who's god caused a man to faceplant.
I was chosen for the scouting party, because I was able to move without either huffing from exhaustion or moaning about old injuries. Or perhaps because the guide did not appreciate his sons taste in men.
We had been tracking the greenskin as they had been tracking us, and things were getting increasingly dire. It would not be much longer until they found the camp, and then a lot of blood would flow.
The following events happened with such rapidity that I struggled to comprehend them, so the following is a list of impression in my attempt at a chronological order. If it is confusing and inexplicable, then I have successfully conveyed what meeting the Saint is like.
- Orks laughing
- A cat shoots out of bushes
- Ork startles, hits another ork
- Shadow horse bursts out of bushes, Saint Mathilde in it
- Orks screaming, striking each other
- Orks screaming, striking at the Saint
- The Saint, unarmed
- The Saint, bisecting two orks in one swing with a sword taller than herself
- A black cat, sitting on the head of living ork
- The Saint, shooting an ork
- The guide, charging the orks
- The rest of use, following a moment later
- A black cat, sitting on the head of a dead ork
- Bashing an ork with a rock, because it kept moving
- Getting kicked in the cup by a pair of ork legs missing everything above the waist
- Finding my dagger returned to me, still stuck in an ork fist
- The Saint grumbling about busy work
- Helping the guide search for his missing teeth
Now, here is the core of her teachings:
Ranald wants to be entertained
This can mean a daring heist, or a brilliant con. It can also mean puns. She named her greatsword "Moonlight Wit", which I suppose is one way to understand the stricture to live by your wits, not your sword. Being a tiny woman likely helps with this, though the contrast is a lot less funny after you've seen her chop through an ork band with the put-upon air of a housewife finding an unexpected patch of weeds in her garden.
If you look for omens or interventions, look for the embarrassing, inconvenient, or silly. If a cat is involved, you know it was Ranald. The chance of intervention goes up as the outcome becomes increasingly funny. It follows then that if you wish for good luck, you must ensure that the failure of your enemy and your own success are more amusing than the alternative. In the following, I will give you a number of ways to ensure this.
…
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Taken from a journal in the collective library of the Grand Conclave, from the dust accumulated, it hasn't been read since it was placed there. From the remote corner it was placed in, there's no expectation that will change.
I journeyed to Karag Eight Peaks at the behest of Ranald. I know many shun my choice to worship all the gods of man in this regard especially, yet in dire straits they all turn to him regardless. I simply pay my respect beforehand, and so don't find myself in such circumstances.
The journey itself was mostly uneventful, though still unpleasant since one of the other travelers kept making eyes at my son. I knew the type, and feared he would only break his heart. In this, I was sadly proven correct. I am grateful that by the grace of Ranald, the fool lost most of his traveling funds on gambling, and so he couldn't stay long enough to do true damage, and it taught my son a necessary lesson.
I mention this, because it illustrates the lesson that crystalised for me during my stay:
As the gods of men are family, so are we all. So trust in your brothers and sisters, and if you aid them, they shall smile on you. For all his bad reputation, Ranald is no different in this.
Consider Dame Mathilde: You shall not find a child of Sigmar more well regarded among dwarfs anywhere on this earth. Yet she is a known devotee of Ranald. How could this be, if he is truly the god of thieves and liars? They would not stand for it.
Incidentally, I had the chance to discuss theology with the Dame, and she had great insights, especially into the relationship between Ranald and Shallya. There's some very unfortunate claims there, which the Lady handily and compellingly denied. In fact, she claims that the most favored follower of Ranald she has known also enjoys great regard in the eyes of the Lady of Mercy.
This is once again proves the truth that a true follower of the gods cannot only serve one of them. Instead, we must …
AN: Inspired by the Beatified trait, and me wondering what kind of lessons people may learn from Mathilde. And surprisingly on topic, given the ongoing discussion of theology.
- Location
- Greece
I want to say that you are right about thieves as a social reality. I agree.
But.
Thievery, gambling and conning =/= Ranaldian thievery, gambling and conning. Most of what you describe is, in universe, areligious, Gunndred based or Soldek based, not Ranald based. I have seen no evidence that WHF gods aren't based on some platonic ideal, and Ranald and his commandments seems to be based on a very specific kind of chaotic good/thrillseeking neutral literary character. Certainly, people may worship Ranald while twisting his commandments and doing the opposite of what he said, but that happens in all religions, and it is not indicative of Ranald's commandments or Ranald himself approving it.
Say what you may about WHF, but its gods seem to be, unless this rp has given me the wrong idea, the one thing it has that engages on platonic ideals and not grimy reality, and while the worshippers may engage on grimy realities just as much as... I won't say more because religious discourse should not be the thing happening here, Ranald is very much the archetypical chaotic good rogue.
- Location
- Canada
I love the idea of Mathilde becoming this weird new offshoot of Ranaldism that treats him as both a bit of a friend and adversary at the same time.
But I hate the idea of 'Beatified' as a personal trait. It feels wrong for a 'personal' trait to have nothing to with Mathilde herself, and everything to do with how others perceive or react to her. All her other traits are things she can do or has knowledge of, rather than a measure of reputation.
- Location
- Finland
I'm so voting for Mathilde the saint if/when the option comes up.
The whole thing has jumped up ahead of dealing with the sigmar issues, or getting better at assassination/infiltration.
How does empire treat living saints? Would anyone not a Ranaldite even know of us being a saint? Would Ranaldites know?
Like how would we even get declared a saint anyhow? Ranald just send out a public notice?
The whole thing has jumped up ahead of dealing with the sigmar issues, or getting better at assassination/infiltration.
How does empire treat living saints? Would anyone not a Ranaldite even know of us being a saint? Would Ranaldites know?
Like how would we even get declared a saint anyhow? Ranald just send out a public notice?
chocolote12
A Penguin Flailing Against The Keyboard Of Life.
It's the same as the other position-traits we've got:
If you swapped it out to 'Mathilde, Mad Mountain Monk of the Mork Mugger' (which I prefer more
), it'd make as much sense; our piety with Ranald and how others view our piety with him are basically the same, because he talks about that sort of thing.Plus, that's not the only reputation trait available. Social traits are traits too, and inevitably they're going to involve what other people think about us, because that has a big impact on the ways we can operate with them.
This trait wouldn't make us a saint, I don't think. However, we'd probably qualify as a notable worshiper after a while, and a few more trait upgrades, (and maybe our death), which is sort of similar (there exist rituals to call notable worshipers of the gods from the afterlife, though they're target specific).
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Lealope
Not yet invincible
- Pronouns
- She/Her
This entire conversation seems somewhat strange to me.
What people call upon Ranald doesn't correspond one to one with what Ranald approves of. Certainly, the poor and hungry might pray to Ranald when they try take food or coin from one another but does that mean he would pay one iota of attention to them?
No, of course not. He has no relationship to the things they do while praying for his blessing. Certainly, he might punish one who actively goes against his teachings and uses the methods of Gunndred or Solden but even that's random*. Why would he dedicate what relatively little power he has to scaring the shit out of someone whose just trying to get by?
Ranald's favoured, the ones he cares for, are the bold and the brave. The Night Prowler who steals from the rich and gives to the poor, the Protector brewing dynamite plots to save his people, the Deciever who dares lying to a Grey Wizard. Those are the ones he considers himself a patron to.
You can't blame a god for what random people pray to him for.
*still more than what Sigmar has done to dissuade his monotheists because Sigmar is a butt
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Guile
Having a really great time right now
"The first thing you have to understand is, Ranald is an asshole." -- Excerpt from first public sermon by Saint Mathilde the Sacrilegious, 2488
- Location
- Greece
Well, that is fair enough. I do not disagree that people may invoke him in such a way. Its just that there has been a notion going around that Ranald is the oppositte of a god of the weak, that the weak are his victims and not the ones he cares for, while I maintain that he is very much the god of the weak fighting the strong, something supported by all his facets (skill at passing unnoticed and entering where you shouldn't, deceiving and gambling on an uncertain outcome are all tools one uses to defeat someone stronger, and the Protector facet, the only one that outright approves of violence, solidifies that his intentions are for the weak and the oppressed to thrive).
- Location
- Seattle
Asarnil has his own colony in Remas.
- Location
- Seattle
Frenemies
- Location
- Canada
It still would feel weird to me to have it in a vote with actual character growth as alternative options. Like a "Vote this and everyone will pick you as Prom Queen" thing. Reputation mechanics should have... some kind of separation. Not sure if I can even express that quite right.It's the same as the other position-traits we've got:
If you swapped it out to 'Mathilde, Mad Mountain Monk of the Mork Mugger' (which I prefer more
Plus, that's not the only reputation trait available. Social traits are traits too, and inevitably they're going to involve what other people think about us, because that has a big impact on the ways we can operate with them.
My impression of Ranald so far is that he's actually one of the gods that doesn't talk about or draw attention to his followers, even among other followers. Not unless they're actively seeking to be noticed. Empress 'Heidi' being the most notable example that came out of nowhere.
If we want to be noticed, we should study the Coin.
Announce? No. Arrange for random chance to spread that idea, partially thanks to Mathild's own actions? Yes.
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