Valarauko
Demon of Power
- Location
- Angband
We've done that already, actually.
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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
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- Tags
- warhammer warhammer fantasy fantasy be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist pansexual protagonist ck2 quest divided loyalties mountain vietnam ranald is real this is a dwarf quest (dwarfs) this is maybe an elf quest this is not a vampire quest this is not an empire quest try it and find out open voting
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
13th Bee
Worker
- Location
- Tennessee, USA.
something something step on me harder
Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
Just wait until we meet Teclis and Mazdamundi
- Location
- New Brunswick, NJ
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Because the eight winds, if combined in any proportion or number other than perfect equality of all eight, form Dhar, as far as our magical tradition knows. It's possible that the tongs method has legs to it, but if it were that simple, someone would have done it already. To quote the QM:
On the flip side, as far as I know, no experimentation on the intersection of magic and divine energy has been done in modern times by the Colleges, because divine casters are, uh, strongly opposed to the notion that their miracles and wizards' magic might be manifestations of the same underlying principles.
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chocolote12
A Penguin Flailing Against The Keyboard Of Life.
Come to think of it, wouldn't the standard skillset for this be not necromancy, but daemonology? Like, the person on the other side isn't a horrible monster, but it's basically trying to use magic to call upon the powers of a warp entity, we just know the warp entity is a good guy.
I don't mean that as a 'this is how it is' assertion, but as more of an observation of similar intent, or a suggestion on how we might go about it; rather than trying to blend two fundamentally similar yet distinct magical powers together, why not punch a hole in the aethyric wall and let him manifest his miracles directly? The 'spells' of the discipline would be us feeding him magical power and stuff directly as a sacrifice beforehand, and setting up the trick like collaborators; we know he can take Ulgu and other powers that aren't his own, based on that time he just dipped his hand straight into Mork's pocket and made off with his wallet.
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Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
Well I would assume normal mixing of divine and wind magic produces Dhar, just like every other failure state of mixing magic powers, so if that can be avoided with Theurgy it should still work with just Winds. Not easy, perhaps, but definitely possible.
Basically treating Ranald like a chaos god, and us his champion. Because that won't get us screwed over in a thousand different ways.
- Location
- Goose Land
Kragg the Grim is such a genius of talent and genius of hard work that he has managed to merge Runes to some degree, allowing him to make items that do quite a bit more than they should be while staying within the 3 Rune limit. The thread has lost their shit over this on occasion because it is an immense flex by Kragg and is something conventionally considered impossible.
That there is some way to bypass the 3 Rune limit directly would be an eventual "Resurgence of the Karaz Ankor" discovery alone, if said bypass isn't reliant on Better-Than-Gromil materials and can actually be taught to others, due to how much more Runic Bullshit the Dawi would be able to accomplish.
Kragg himself is a specialist at Runic Combinations, meaning that his thing is figuring out combinations of Runes to do specific powerful effects that a "normal" Runelord would barely have any idea how to accomplish.
With a 3 Rune Limit, Kragg is basically the Dwarven equivalent to WHFRPG's take on High Magic which is summed as "Don't bother statting it out and use it solely as a Plot Device and as a Deus Ex Mechanica." BoneyM confirms this within DL by labelling his stats as Yes or No.
If Kragg and only Kragg was able to use 5 Runes at once on an object.
I'm not saying that's basically an Order Win Condition, but I am saying that it would make accomplishing any number of the Order Win Conditions much much easier.
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chocolote12
A Penguin Flailing Against The Keyboard Of Life.
I don't see how it would?
Chaos Gods give their champions power, and then the champions do things. This would be the champion giving the god power, and then the god does something. The fundamental premise is entirely backwards.
- Location
- The Star Kingdom of Manticore
So dhar is created when the eight winds of magic mix in unequal amounts. Divine lore is very different than Wind lore. So we don't know if divine lore mixing with wind lore create Dhar. There is a suggestion that two divine lores combining won't create dhar as shown by Empress Heidi. We really don't know what happens when we mix divine lore and wind lore.
Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
Even better, it brings up the question of whether there is any real limit on runes at all. Like, we previously believed you could only stick three runes on something, but now we have an object with five. Who says it has to stop there? Bok might only have five runes because that's all he needed to do his job. What if we could put seven, or nine, or even more on something? Unlikely, I know, but it's possible until we find out more.
Fair enough. I still imagine it would be Dhar, personally, just because there's no other indication of possible bad forms of magic, but it might just not work i guess. Just have to try and find out.
- Location
- New Brunswick, NJ
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Pretty much this.
It might not work! We don't know! It might require some weird extra hoops! But even in the world where it does work without any weird hoops, we have a reasonable expectation of being the first person in the Colleges to figure it out, because it's very rare to simultaneously be 1) a Magister-grade wizard 2) sufficiently beloved of your god that they intercede on your behalf 3) devoted to a god that is okay with being experimented on. This is different from the standard Wind-Wind manipulation situation because in the world where that does work in a straightforward way, we would expect someone to have already done it by now.
Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
For the same reasons reading the Liber Mortis so we can break Necromancy would get us killed as a witch and a heretic. Chanelling a warp entity is channeling a warp entity, even if it's one of the 'good' gods. And considering that Ranald is the least liked god in our pantheon, even that wouldn't get him much sympathy. Witch-hunters probably wouldn't care for the particulars of which way the exchange goes.
chocolote12
A Penguin Flailing Against The Keyboard Of Life.
'Because it looks like it, but it actually isn't'? That isn't a very good comparison. We're talking about what's actually going on; nobody cares what the witch hunters will think, unless somebody plans to tell them...
Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
You're... you're joking, right? I think you are, but I'm not entirely sure.'Because it looks like it, but it actually isn't'? That isn't a very good comparison. We're talking about what's actually going on; nobody cares what the witch hunters will think, unless somebody plans to tell them...
chocolote12
A Penguin Flailing Against The Keyboard Of Life.
I'm joking about telling the witch hunters, but not that nobody'll care what they think unless we tell them. As a paranoid Grey Magister Worshiper of Ranald, we're, like, triple deep in reasons why they'd never, ever find out.
In case you think I mean that they wouldn't burn us: "[They would burn us] 'Because it looks like it [heresy], but it actually isn't'?", is the sentence in the context I intended.
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Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
That's... A fair point. I'm mildly worried that interacting with the Warp in such a way could still lead to interference by other powers though. It's not just about perceptions of it.
chocolote12
A Penguin Flailing Against The Keyboard Of Life.
It's a reasonable worry, but one that's already the case. Miscasts can involve being possessed by daemons and stuff, or having your soul stolen. They're fundamentally pretty nasty; it's just a matter of magnitude.
A branch of magic we would call Theurgy would at least have a Warp Entity of incredible size on hand when the incident occurred; if Ranald couldn't deal with daemons trying to start things with him, he'd have a very rough time of it.
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BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Oh sorry, my bad.
To me a century is not him wasting his time for a couple of reasons: Kragg is the best living Runelord in pure Runecraft. See people mentioning him merging Runes in ways that are not supposed to really be possible. I expect him to figure out how to make things with five runes in a decade or so, given a single example and missing a lot of the pieces unless the Elemental can outright tell him, and from there spend the next 90 or so years retrying a lot of the likely millions of combinations he's done in his time now modified with four and five runes. At a point where he discovers some exceptionally powerful combinations of five runes or rediscovers how to make the Elemental runic soul replacement, he'll then make a masterwork to style over every other Runesmith in the world.
Mathilde could well be alive in a century and receive this masterwork, but something that hasn't come through in this quest at a prominent level is that Runesmithing takes time in the lore. Very large amounts of time usually.
Basically my point is that the process of that revival I expect to take a very large amount of time from a human perspective given how much has been lost, and that a large part of that revival is the rediscovery of ancient runic combinations that took more than three Runes.
Mathilde is reaching the point, especially with the Avatar trait, that godly interference is basically something we have to accept as a fact of life.
As happened while planning for Waaagh Birdmuncha and people mentioning Gork and Mork poking at us, we're basically already at the point of making the mental note "Oh yeah, these Gods might try to fuck us over in particular". Godly interference in our jazz is basically expected at this point.
I'm okay with this, and its not a very far step to look at any attempts at Ranald Theurgy Shenanigans and think "Yeah someone else might decide to try and take a poke". Because its not a very far step, and because the previous step makes me think Godly shenanigans are already inevitable anyway I find the reasons to not find out if its possible or not not very compelling. Something else we'd come up with would likely bring down Godly attention, might as well be something we've chatted about for something like 2000 pages.
Granted my personal expectations is that Theurgy has a very high likelihood of "Nothing much happens" and the Tongs stuff has a similar "yep, makes lots of Dhar", though not for the same reasons. One of these groundbreaking and worldshaking ideas probably has to fall out at some point even if it ends up being dice rolls that determine their viability.
E: This is also why I want to do at minimum one action into each of them, so we can work on answering the question of "are they even possible?" once and for all.
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Basically, if you want your walls to tank cannonfire, you want stone backed by packed earth. It absorbs the shock, cracks a bit, but retains structure, while the stone prevents the wall from being worn away by lesser erosion. The walls of Constantinople and Chinese City Walls use this method of construction.
A stone wall, however well built, will shatter locally until the whole thing just collapses.
Incorrect. The Winds of magic mix all the time in the natural environment without producing Dhar, we see this happen every single morning.
Dhar is created when the winds of magic mix improperly but most particularly when they mix improperly inside a soul. Dhar is also created when a Wind of magic mixes improperly with itself(see Gretel's failed lifesteal spell, where the Shyish, and Shyish alone was mixing with itself and forming a Dhar clot).
Also High Magic uses the Winds in many varied proportions.
To use a weaving metaphor, a tapestry with exactly identical amounts of each color used is a random pattern, a picture requires more subtlety than that.
Nifty. One thing I noticed is that we know that Karagril and Karag Zilfin are noticeably taller than all the other mountains (snow year-round only on them), and the second picture looks like Karag Lhune is taller than Karagril.
Hope that helps!
Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
I suppose. Anyways, changing the subject, I've been thinking about the Skaven techonlogy, now that we're getting closer to the end of the war turns. While it might be difficult to get the dwarves to outright reverse engineer things, how difficult might it be to just use the underlying principles in developing new and even more terrifying weapons? Like... cannons. Dwarves like cannons, and we've already started innovation there, but if we got Gotri some copies of, say, the Skaven machine gun schematics, might we get gattling cannons? or maybe actual automatic rifles like in modern times? Or real tanks that don't require steam and are liable to blow up at any time? Of course, I doubt the tech would be anywhere near modern levels, but even rudimentary versions could completely change how the Dwarven war machine works, and put them on at least equal footing with the Skaven. hell, even the gyrocoptors getting an electricity upgrade might make them more effective.
Eh, I still imagine he'd make the time to find at least one item for us before he gets too far into trying literally everything he possibly could. We'll just have to wait and see, I suppose.
Fair enough.
Guile
Having a really great time right now
That seems... an excessive worry?
It happened once, right after we pulled that trick stealing 2% of Mork's MP.