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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Alratan said:
At best Ranald the Protector probably wouldn't care about the Empress or her unborn child, and at worst he'd applaud her death.
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chocolote12 said:
It's literally theories about the Conspiracy, they're all like this by default.

But Ranald is a civilized god, not a paragon. Something being especially dark doesn't leave it out of the range of possibility for him.
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Do remember the Conspiracy was pointedly interested in Undead, up to and including promised rewards for interesting 'live samples'(!) collected and delivered to them during the Purge.

The thread can tinfoil hat all it likes, I don't see Ranald, Protector, endorsing that sort of business.
 
Robotninja said:
Bad idea. I doubt it is possible and it will likely just lead to Dhar.
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No it's not a bad idea, it might not be possible and if it does lead to creating dhar our belt will literally destroy it because we can practice with tiny amounts of the winds being released in the null lab from our snake juice. There's no downside and every chance for a possible upside. I agree it's probable that this would form incidental dhar, but it's not impossible that we can come up with a technique to allow Ulgu to manipulate another wind and if we can pull it off in a reliable fashion we can write a paper on it and shift the research of it to the colleges to pursue.


BungieONI said:
Yeah. Ulgu tongs would be a bit like using waldoes, to extend the hazmat suit metaphor.
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Yea pretty much, you interested in the idea of trying to manipulate another wind with Ulgu tongs and seeing if it's feasible to do so with out creating dhar? We know the winds of magic do interact with each other in the wild with out forming dhar so it must be in theory possible.
 
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[X] Try to find Kasmir in Sylvania

[X] Write in: Try to contact Abelhelm van Hal. You just want to talk to him one last time...

[X] Write-In: Regimand, so you and you're father figure can be smug together.

[X]Write-In: Panoramia, because you appreciate her starry-eyed wonder and never got to do the big sister thing with your actual siblings
 
Alliterate said:
Rune Belt does not prevent Evil Magic Mind Grooves from Dhar use forming due to Human neuroplasticity.
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I mean, that's a valid tact- but one could make an equally valid argument that said neuroplasticity will let Mathilde bounce back from the psychological side effects of Dhar with time and active effort. Considering she has Vlad's notes on diagnosing Dhar and insights into Frederick Van Hal's mindset, she should be fairly well equipped to alter her head space with therapeutic efforts and time.

Mathilde's knowledge and insights into the psyche of people has been a long touted skill of hers and would absolutely be applicable in 'how do I wear away these mental grooves to allow limited use without compromising my judgement?'.
 
Karugus said:
I mean, that's a valid tact- but one could make an equally valid argument that said neuroplasticity will let Mathilde bounce back from the psychological side effects of Dhar with time and active effort. Considering she has Vlad's notes on diagnosing Dhar and insights into Frederick Van Hal's mindset, she should be fairly well equipped to alter her head space with therapeutic efforts and time.

Mathilde's knowledge and insights into the psyche of people has been a long touted skill of hers and would absolutely be applicable in 'how do I wear away these mental grooves to allow limited use without compromising my judgement?'.
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I don't want to do that.
I don't want to read a story about that.
I don't want to ask Boney to write a story about that.
 
Dhar is bad, and if have any other option we shouldn't touch it even with a set of ten-thousand mile long tongs. Using Ulgu to manipulate other winds has potential, though; I'm not sure if it'll actually work or, if it does work, will work well enough to be safe and useful, but it's an avenue that's worth looking down once we get the time.
 
Karugus said:
Mathilde's knowledge and insights into the psyche of people has been a long touted skill of hers and would absolutely be applicable in 'how do I wear away these mental grooves to allow limited use without compromising my judgement?'.
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"How do I combat my own biases?" is an extremely fraught question that mostly ends up at "you don't, you just justify them to yourself better." without external help which is kind of contraindicated in regards to Dhar for multiple reasons.
 
NSMS said:
Even violent muggings are contrary to Ranald's portfolio, IIRC. Murder of an innocent should never be acceptable to him.
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Ranald frowns on unnecessary violence (but doesn't forbid it). He doesn't define what's necessary and unnecessary. In at least one of his other aspects, Ranald believes you should kill your victims with a dagger and stiletto, not a sword.

Tn canon there's a part of his cult (who would receive his spells) that arranges the ruination and death of rich and powerful people, innocent or guilty, for the offence of being rich and powerful. All the order gods have very negative aspects if taken too far.

Murder of an innocent child should be fine for the Protector, the Deceiver, and the Gambler, from what we know. Nothing in his strictures makes any reference to innocence.

Alliterate said:
The thread can tinfoil hat all it likes, I don't see Ranald, Protector, endorsing that sort of business.
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Ranald the Protector should be all over learning better how to overthrow (undead) aristocrats.
 
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Karugus said:
I mean, that's a valid tact- but one could make an equally valid argument that said neuroplasticity will let Mathilde bounce back from the psychological side effects of Dhar with time and active effort. Considering she has Vlad's notes on diagnosing Dhar and insights into Frederick Van Hal's mindset, she should be fairly well equipped to alter her head space with therapeutic efforts and time.

Mathilde's knowledge and insights into the psyche of people has been a long touted skill of hers and would absolutely be applicable in 'how do I wear away these mental grooves to allow limited use without compromising my judgement?'.
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With Ulgu tongs she'd never be having those Dhar groves in her mind. That's kind of the whole point of using the wind as tongs, the issue Fredrick had was he was still getting blasted with Dhar exposure. Not something Mathilde would worry about, but again I feel I must stress this the point isn't that I want to use Dhar, just that doing so would be safe as we're insulated from it. The real coup is that we can try and see if manipulating other winds is viable.



Alliterate said:
I don't want to do that.
I don't want to read a story about that.
I don't want to ask Boney to write a story about that.
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Yes and that's fine, It's also irrelevant to the question about the facts of the matter of whats in theory possible.
 
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Unrelated, but it stuck in my mind:
BoneyM said:
[Scouting Karagril: Intrigue, 96+19=115.]

You're delighted to learn that the greenskin population of Karagril is close enough to 'town' that Ranald's Coin applies. The Doppelganger you cloak yourself in when you don't have a specific Orc to base it on is a strange, featureless caricature of the species, but as soon as you're past those watching the external entrances none give you a second glance. The population inside were Red Fang, but have taken to calling themselves Silver Fang since they were cut off from Karak Drazh. The current Warboss is on shaky ground and everywhere you look, conspiracy is brewing to replace him, kept in check only by the size of his axe and none of the Orcs trusting each other to help them seize power.

The inside of the mountain that's been carved out is significantly smaller than that of Karags Lhune or Nar, and instead of the right angles Dwarves usually favour it follows the zigs and zags of a silver vein exhausted millennia ago. It seems this mountain was mostly used as a base of operations for miners pursuing veins further afield, either far below or on the other side of Death Pass. The most prominent feature is the Silver Tower, which seems to be made of the same iron-silver alloy the Undumgi pikes are made of, and has been chipped down to a ruin by generations of greenskins laboriously harvesting the metal. A close second is the SIlver Tarn, an enormous crater lake halfway up the mountain. You can't tell if its fed by rain or springs or ancient Dwarven artifice, but apart from a severe algae build-up the water appears clean and clear. A distant third is a series of towers on the northern flank of Karagril, once intended for stone throwers but eminently suitable for cannon and providing clear fields of fire along Death's Crossing, the bridge halfway along Death Pass. This would make the Undumgi's job much easier.

Once your explorations are concluded, you use your MAP to construct one model for Dreng and another for King Belegar's briefing room.
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A critical success for our scouting, but surprisingly little major about the Silver Fang themselves in terms of defenses. No mention of any surprises they might have for us further in, or if they have any at all. I suppose they might have a stockpile of silversteel weapons, but nothing like the Troll Trap, Skaven deals, and so on that we found at Karag Lhune, or the Idol of Only Gork at Karag Nar.

Suspicious, but I suppose it's entirely possible that the above-ground Greenskins were always meant to be something of a sideshow to Clan Moulder underground. It definitely looks like Moulder acted recently to throw the Red Fang out of Under-Karagril, which would have been a not-insignificant investment of resources. Combine that with Moulder's dealings with the former Crooked Moon Warboss, and they've definitely got designs on Karak Eight Peaks well beyond getting rid of Clan Mors.

Definitely want to scout them out ASAP, given that soon we'll have Dawi living above them once Karagril is secured.
 
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I'm pretty sure that i'm not the only one that thinks becoming a necromancer or even messing around with Dhar too much is a bad idea and don't want to do it.

"Know thy enemy. Do NOT become thy enemy."
 
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soulcake said:
Why are people wanting to use the stuff of evil and madness. You are immune to enriched uranium but no one said shit about how other people would feel if they found out youre walkin around throwing irradiated material everywhere.

This is the height of hubris.
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And that discussion is exhausted long ago. We have read Liber Mortis, we can't measurably dig our grave deeper in regards to how people would feel about our conduct.

Moreover, nobody advocates actually creating dhar, only messing with dhar already wielded by enemies of humanity.

Oh, and miniscule amounts of properly contained dhar/warpstone in laboratory conditions for testing purposes, to be properly disposed later.
 
REAPER35 said:
I'm pretty sure that i'm not the only one that thinks becoming a necromancer or even messing around with Dhar too much is a bad idea and don't want to do it.

"Know thy enemy. Do NOT become thy enemy."
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No one apart from Omega is talking about actually wanting to become a necromancer. We're talking about the factual basis for the underpinnings of the setting and magic system. We can all agree we don't want to be a necromancer with out ignoring the implications of what our belt and knowledge implies.
 
Alliterate said:
I don't want to do that.
I don't want to read a story about that.
I don't want to ask Boney to write a story about that.
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That has nothing to do with whether we can't safely wield Dhar with a bit of self-awareness. And I think you're imagining something far more excessive than I am. I was thinking of spending actions or just seeing bits in the background of Mathilde largely doing what she does when she's reading the Liber Mortis. Read a good book by a fire with quality drink, play with Wolf, reinforce positive associations with other people. Don't let your work isolate you- which is tentatively a problem in the first place for Grey Wizards.

But hey- in the end you are absolutely entitled to your own opinion on this- I just don't think it would necessarily be a story of Mat's descent in madness.
 
TotallyNotEvil said:
We don't quite know how much each point of Dwarf Favor is in gold, but if we take a dwarf shilling to weight the same as the british coin of the same name, then a 70kg man would need twelve and a half thousand dwarf gold coins.

So, about 4200 silver ingots, or ~15 percent more than Math got from the Expedition.

And again, there's the slight issue of him weight the same as a decently-sized car.
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He only got his arms done with the gold from the karak, so about 12% of his volume, which would be... (googles average human density), about 160 kg of gold.
Mathilde says a silver bar makes 60 shillings, and 20 shillings are worth a gold crown, assuming they are about the same size, and gold being about twice as heavy as silver, he would get about 1/10th the weight of his silver in gold.
If you are right and the imperial shilling = british shillings = 5.655 grams, so a silver bar would be around .34 kg, so he would need around 4700 Silver ingots, so yeah, way too much.
Mathilde got how many shares?
Ugh, i think this is pointless, too many unknowns.
But yeah, basically he would need far far more gold than he got for a full transition, gilding or gilding+small infusion seem way more likely.
 
Dammit, I woke up and had 40-something pages to go through. And still have almost 30 to go. And by the time I get through 30 pages, I'll have 10 more to go through...

Anyway. Something I was musing about, but don't want to wait hours of catching-up in order to fully catch up, is...

The Karag Dum expedition preparation.

You know what one ripple effect of Belegar and Mathilde's actions might be? If the Elector-Counts end up thinking about the whole "Maybe we should help Dwarfs out" thing and as a result, the Karag Dum expedition ends up getting Empire support that it never got in the original timeline. Now that would be an amusing or interesting unintended/unforeseen butterfly effect to happen.

That, as a result of pushing the "Hey, look what Dwarfs can do for you?" angle and politics, the Karag Dum rescue effort gets more support.

Which... admittedly, could just lead to another of those "Nation/Person sends an army/adventuring party into dangerous area; whole army/party fails to return and is never heard from again" things that crops up in those tidbits and timeline entries in the armybooks sometimes. Which would suck. For the first reclamation/rescue effort to be backed, to then also fall into a blackhole. However, I don't think it's likely to happen; because the Empire is likely to begin helping out Karak Eight Peaks first. Because it's nearby, because there's already territory held there, because the King there just worked his politics. So the endeavor the Empire might put its weight behind, would likely be Eight Peaks or maybe another Heavily Armed Mining Expedition that Zhufbar sends to the local fallen hold.

But anyway. Karag Dum. It's 5 or 6 years away. It's possible that by the time it happens -- or, if it gets delayed by a year or two, in order to wait for more support from Karaz Ankor and Empire both -- it will have more help. And that might be an interesting butterfly, if that expedition/rescue effort actually succeeds, you know?

((I call it "expedition/rescue effort" because my vague memories of the Gotrek and Felix collections, say that the 2nd expedition was definitely an evacation attempt. Which means that the first one probably was too. Heck, it really makes sense anyway; I can't think that they would have thought that they could clear territory all the way up into north and resettle/reclaim Karag Dum with the amount of forces they brought, right? It was probably from the start, an attempt to rescue any Dwarfs that might be alive, and retrieve as many Dwarf treasures and relics as possible. Because it's way way off the map in terms of distance, IIRC. So it's more like a rescue/relief effort, rather than a reconquest effort like King Belegar's quest.))

And, remembering that King Belegar had come to the Elector's Meet to try and get support for his Karak Eight Peaks efforts...
BoneyM said:
Raising a topic at an Elector's Meet for serious discussion and contemplation, and anyone otherwise neutral on the topic would vote for it.
Give you the right to address the Meet on a topic they're about to vote towards, and your opinion and any points you raise will be given serious weight.
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With this, we'd be able to even throw more of our own reputation behind Belegar's next visit or efforts at the next Elector's Meet. Which is coming up in 4 years or so I think. Assuming the "every 6 years" thing though. I can't recall if that's canon or what.

And now back to trudging through the backlog and making my way up to the update...
 
EVA-Saiyajin said:
No.
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What question do you think you're actually answering here? because the bare facts are what Quest asserted, that's not about motivation or desire. It's simply a statement of the facts if you think he's wrong you'd have to explain why, simple fear of that statement of facts being correct and therefore opening pandoras box in some way is utterly unjustified.

no one is crazy enough to want to be a necromancer or run around using Dhar. We're safe from it our allies aren't, however the facts of the matter do enable other lines of research which weren't possible before which could have pretty far ranging consequences.
 
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