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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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SuperSonicSound said:
Our job is to relocate the spiders. We're doing that job. Getting communications setup with them isn't even part of the task but we've got a free action and a minion action on it.
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The item basically doesn't count to me, it's simply too limited to be of anything more than occasional use; it's a single item that can only be in one place at a time, that it's free (and can convert college favors to dwarf) is it's only recommendation. It's a stopgap measure in case all other options fail and written Reikspiel is only acceptable to me at all because it's the only thing our subordinates can teach them. I've prefer Khazalid but investing three of our own actions would be a step too far for me, to be honest I was strongly temped to turn Max loose but Johann is better at studying materials than he would be at teaching, at least going by what ps
Alratan said:
It makes a lot of sense, because we know that the way that skaven deal with spiders is to pull our the warpflame throwers and burn them out. At the same time, Johann is after skaven warptech.

I don't know why you bring uup deeper scouting. We don't need deeper scouting.

We need more scouting of the same place to keep an eye on their reaction to the spiders' initial attacks so we can feed intelligence back, and we need to be in position to interfere, whether that's through sabotage, assassination, or simply stealing their stuff and running away laughing madly. If Mathilde isn't present she can't do anything, but this means she'll have her boots on the ground there and will be there to do what she needs, and will have an allied Gold Wizard who is perfect to mess with the enemies' equipment with her.

Johann might well not care, which is exactly why it's important to have Mathilde there with him to tell him that he has to help anyway.

The fundamental question is whether we think Mathilde is a robot that will blindly obey the letter of her instructions rather than react dynamically if she's put in position to do so.
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They do that as a reaction to being preyed upon heavily and crucially by the time they get to that point the spiders will be settled in behind Dwarven defensive lines. Meaning their scouting/foraging forces will be risked, but from the We's perspective their only value is the food they bring in for the egg-laying parts of the hive.

Furthermore my point isn't that Mathilde won't react, but that Johann's focus probably won't bring them in a direction that reacting will have any benefit. Looking for examples of skaven tech is different than scouting, it has a different scope which does not necessarily intersect so the only way I see any of these actions of having any mechanical or narrative effect on the spider actions is if we crit and then the random roll happens to land on one, maybe two, particular options on a table of who knows how many. It just doesn't seem likely that a tech search ends up leading into any sort of widespread sabotage or information gathering because that's not what its about. If we vote to help Johann, my assumption is that that's what we'll actually do. Not that we'll do something else.
 
Also for those arguing that Johan wont be doing stuff to help with the task, Max isn't in the other leading plan and neither is Johan He's on web properties which could be useful in the future but it's not actually part of the task this plan and we're a long way from being able to integrate them into the economy.

[] Plan Not Really Preliminary Anymore
-[] Have Maximilian attempt to write a paper (choose which from 'Publish or Perish')
--[] Write a paper on the Waaagh energy and magic witnessed during the Expedition.
-[] Current Task: Have Johann investigate the properties of the spiders' webs.

Neither of the minions are doing anything related to the current task in this plan or even the likely next task the turn after which is probably going to be to establish better comms.
 
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CuttleFish2.0 said:
Furthermore my point isn't that Mathilde won't react, but that Johann's focus probably won't bring them in a direction that reacting will have any benefit. Looking for examples of skaven tech is different than scouting
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If the Skaven respond, Skaven-tech is what they'd use against the Spiders. Take no chances.

Warpflame Throwers are Skaven-tech. They are a known threat to our relocation plans. Let's do Mathilde things to that known threat.


SuperSonicSound said:
Neither of the minions are doing anything related to the current task in this plan or even the likely next task the turn after which is probably going to be to establish better comms.
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And this is why I find the claim that Plan Citadel allows Johann to coast very odd in light of this context, when the leading alternative plan doesn't have much to do with our current task, for either Maximillian or Johann.
 
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Sooo... Weberlings? Because Kragg would have a heart attack if we tell him there is an entire colony of Webers in the Chiselwards.
 
SuperSonicSound said:
It does have a hilarious deal of synergy.
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With Substance of Shadow, Mathilde can probably stand in a dark corner in a place where the tunnel is in shadow and repeatedly re-cast the spell to steal things right out of their owners' hands by turning them insubstantial and immaterial and grabbing them.

CuttleFish2.0 said:
They do that as a reaction to being preyed upon heavily and crucially by the time they get to that point the spiders will be settled in behind Dwarven defensive lines. Meaning their scouting/foraging forces will be risked, but from the We's perspective their only value is the food they bring in for the egg-laying parts of the hive.

Furthermore my point isn't that Mathilde won't react, but that Johann's focus probably won't bring them in a direction that reacting will have any benefit. Looking for examples of skaven tech is different than scouting, it has a different scope which does not necessarily intersect so the only way I see any of these actions of having any mechanical or narrative effect on the spider actions is if we crit and then the random roll happens to land on one, maybe two, particular options on a table of who knows how many. It just doesn't seem likely that a tech search ends up leading into any sort of widespread sabotage or information gathering because that's not what its about. If we vote to help Johann, my assumption is that that's what we'll actually do. Not that we'll do something else.
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Remember that a turn lasts six months. That's plenty of time for a uniquely disciplined and well organised clan of skaven to decide to nip a growing spider problem in the bud. As we know they'll probably use warptech for this, and Johann is looking for warptech, the intersection of interests seems pretty obvious to me. We're also throwing the Gambler's face of the Coin to this. If a lucky coincidence is what we need, this makes that a lot more likely.

Even if they don't, by spending a lot of time down in the Under-Citadel Mathilde will almost automatically gather intelligence she can share with the spiders, which will make the value of the alliance more apparent to them.
 
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SuperSonicSound said:
IIRC I think BoneyM had said that tower rooms always provide a better boost than the underground rooms, just due to thematic reasoning. Also we're not limited to one tower room and we'll be building another the turn after which probably will be the Ulgu room.
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"Hey guys, if you hear weird noises while you're building the next floor, that's just me in the new lab doing experimental magic. If things start coming into the work area though, best to jump down on the snowy side."
<<Khazalid muttering>>
"I don't see how that calls for time and a half. Just have another cup of tea while they dissipate."
 
CuttleFish2.0 said:
This argument is absolute nonsense to me, it literally make no sense. We have already scouted Mors, the options available in the turn for Mors are not 'deeper scouting' and the winning write-in is not for that either, it is to probe potentially with some theft as that dovetails with Johann's desires and we are explicitly helping him. Maybe we don't have maximum information on Mors, but we at least know there aren't any major signs of them turning their attention on the dwarves. Thus we can pretty safely assume the Spiders have at least a turn of settling in before Mors is likely to do anything to them. You know what we have no information on? The third force putting pressure on Mors, which is also right next to the the We's new proposed home.
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Clan Mors is a long term enemy and the one that controls the territory closest to the Citadel. Investigating them is ultimately all to the good. You can argue whether it's necessarily the most efficient thing to do this particular Turn, but it's not crazy off the wall or anything.
 
CuttleFish2.0 said:
Boney has stated that that actual possible applications will be rolled without modifiers. The only think Gambler could help with is mitigating some disaster.

To be clear to everyone, Plan Not Really Preliminary Anymore is not really my preferred option, my own plan Plan Talk to me Baby (Spider) obviously is which doubles down much more on doing our job. But running off with Johann to not do our job wrankles me so much that I will vote for any other plan which does not have us doing that (even if it does no more with our actual job, it at least doesn't carry the risk of causing problems while we are explicitly trying to relocate our new allies).
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I never said it would make the snake juice better I just really don't want Mathilde to miss any applications.

Also I really don't see how stealing/sabotaging the weapons the skaven would use against the spiders doesn't help, how does having him study silk help move them?

IIf anything plan citadel seems like a much better plan for moving the spiders to me, it also has Max helping with the actual task rather than just writing a paper.
 
Andmeuths said:
And this is why I find the claim that Plan Citadel allows Johann to coast very odd in light of this context, when the leading alternative plan doesn't have much to do with our current task, for either Maximillian or Johann.
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I've just charitably assumed they've fixated on an argument against our plan without realising it applies more to the one their voted for, I mean I nearly did something similar earlier in the morning when I some how didn't realise that plan citadel does the Ranald shrine. :p
 
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Andmeuths said:
If the Skaven respond, Skaven-tech is what they'd use against the Spiders. Take no chances.

Warpflame Throwers are Skaven-tech. They are a known threat to our relocation plans. Let's do Mathilde things to that known threat.
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They are not a threat to relocation plans, they have no idea they are happening. We scouted them literally last turn, we know what they are doing right now. Not in detail, but at the very least in general; currently they are being pressed in every direction except form us, that means that's where their attention is, so there's very little risk of our not interacting with them this turn resulting in them immediately turning around and jumping on us with everything they have. Poking them might change that.

Furthermore, while opportunistic sabotage is on the table, getting rid of all their tech options is almost certainly not; if we succeed I expect Johann to come back with an example or two of easily portable tech and for Mathilde to have done a small amount of minimal sabotage, not cripple Mors ability to fry the spiders at all. I think you're expectations are way out of whak with what is possible or likely.

NavySeel said:
I never said it would make the snake juice better I just really don't want Mathilde to miss any applications.

Also I really don't see how stealing/sabotaging the weapons the skaven would use against the spiders doesn't help, how does having him study silk help move them?

IIf anything plan citadel seems like a much better plan for moving the spiders to me, it also has Max helping with the actual task rather than just writing a paper.
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What if we're caught? Suddenly Mor knows that someone is poking about and that hey it might behoove them to go do some smashing. If they do, they might run smackdab into a caravan of vulnerable spiders travelling to underneath the Citadel, vulnerable and ripe for the killing, suddenly not only have we failed but last turns effort has gone up in a puff of smoke. Meanwhile if we succeed, we still a few examples of skaven tech and sabotage a few more. We almost certainly don't cripple them. The failure risks are far more to me than the benefits of success.
 
Alratan said:
Who's Spider Sigmar, and when are we making a magic item for him though?
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Spider-Sigmar is just Sigmar who got bitten by a radioactive We, so we'll need to make him some Ulgu web shooters. Then we'll have to watch out for Thorgrim writing that he's a menace to Karak Eight Peaks, otherwise he won't have time to fight Da Green(er) Gobbo and Doctor Octoskaven.
 
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CuttleFish2.0 said:
They are not a threat to relocation plans, they have no idea they are happening. We scouted them literally last turn, we know what they are doing right now. Not in detail, but at the very least in general; currently they are being pressed in every direction except form us, that means that's where their attention is, so there's very little risk of our not interacting with them this turn resulting in them immediately turning around and jumping on us with everything they have. Poking them might change that.
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This isn't accurate they're a threat because they can kill the spider hunters looking for prey, they aren't a threat to the nest behind dwarf lines but suddenly have starving spiders behind dwarf lines wouldn't be a good idea although later on we can solve that with trading food for spider assistance.

Blorp said:
Spider-Sigmar is just Sigmar who got bitten by a radioactive We, so we'll need to make him some Ulgu web shooters. Then we'll have to watch out for Thorgrim writing that he's a menace to Karak Eight Peaks, otherwise he won't have time to fight Da Green Gobbo and Doctor Octoskaven.
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Kragg the Grim as Jonah Jameson, poor spider sigmar.
 
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Blorp said:
Spider-Sigmar is just Sigmar who got bitten by a radioactive We, so we'll need to make him some Ulgu web shooters. Then we'll have to watch out for Thorgrim writing that he's a menace to Karak Eight Peaks, otherwise he won't have time to fight Da Green Gobbo and Doctor Octoskaven.
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>Doctor Octoskaven
>SHUDDER
Wipe that image from my brain please
 
Blorp said:
Spider-Sigmar is just Sigmar who got bitten by a radioactive We, so we'll need to make him some Ulgu web shooters. Then we'll have to watch out for Thorgrim writing that he's a menace to Karak Eight Peaks, otherwise he won't have time to fight Da Green(er) Gobbo and Doctor Octoskaven.
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I'm pretty sure it's Mathilde's pleasure and privilege to declare Sigmar a menace.
 
SuperSonicSound said:
This isn't accurate they're a threat because they can kill the spider hunters looking for prey, they aren't a threat to the nest behind dwarf lines but suddenly have starving spiders behind dwarf lines wouldn't be a good idea although later on we can solve that with trading food for spider assistance.
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Anything the spiders hunt can kill hunting spiders. Literally no option will alleviate that. Honestly at this point I'm kind of hoping we have a string of really bad rolls this turn no matter what plan wins, the way i see it the thread has gotten waaaay to complacent in expecting to succeed that we've stopped planning for any sort of failure and starting expecting massive success right off the bad no matter what.
 
when you're posting about how you want everything to fail to punish people for being complacent you're well past the point of posting in a healthy fashion. :\
 
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