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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Derpmind said:
So I'm still back in year page 1795, but if someone else hasn't mentioned it yet, I've got a good reason why we should build the tower first before investigating the Snake Juice: Back when we were investigating the Shyish-kebabs, we had a second roll for figuring out the applications of the swords. The first roll was how well we did figuring out what it was, while the second was for finding uses for it:


While Mathilde figured out pretty well what the structure of the enchantment was, she didn't think our box of 49 swords was useful as anything but a store of Shyish energy. Building a tower to help enhance our experiments doesn't just increase our chances of identifying the structure of teh Snake Juice; it'll also help us find a way to actually use it. (Besides exploding it. It probably explodes well.)

[X] Plan Citadel Focus
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I also really want to put the coin bonus on it to maximize the potential results.
 
Redshirt Army said:
And, of course, the benefits of the We being able to keep institutional knowledge for longer are pretty clear too - we can keep the alliance going longer if they remember it for longer, after all.
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While I am on your side, I'd say that the spiders keeping institutional knowledge does not really make the allience last longer.

I'd argue that sticking with oral tradition up to the point where everyone who lived before the allience was established while being in costant and active collaboration with them can lead to the point where We knows no other reality, and where cooperating with dwarfs is how things have always been and the alternatives would be strange and alien.

That's pretty 1986, but that would work and tie the spiders to us tighter than anything.
 
Redshirt Army said:
My thoughts on Veekie's plan, in detail:

[Max] Current Task: Have Maximilian teach the We written Reikspiel.

Max is actually an excellent writer - there's a reason Mathilde has him do all her reports. Beyond that, the We have an incredibly logical thought process and don't understand the concept of lies - I expect them to get along quite well with a Gold Wizard.

And, of course, the benefits of the We being able to keep institutional knowledge for longer are pretty clear too - we can keep the alliance going longer if they remember it for longer, after all.

[Johann] Allow him to spend all his time investigating Clan Mors.

You've mapped the territory of Clan Mors. Help Johann poke Clan Mors
-[X] The Gambler: Poke Clan Mors

Johann is here to investigate Skaven tech. We need to know how he's going to be approaching this - if we assign him to do something else, he'll still do the Skaven scouting in his free time, only unsupervised and without the benefit of the Coin.

By taking this action, we can gauge his competence, see if his plan to observe the Skaven is workable, and actually decide how to handle him in the future from an informed perspective.

As an added bonus, I expect him to be able to boost our sabotage to a significant degree, and this option synergizes with this turn in general - Clan Mors is the "generalist" clan, so while they don't specialize in warptech, they do have some, and will almost certainly pull it out once they get wind of a sudden spider infestation... which is when we steal it.

This is a great opportunity for us to kill three birds with one stone, simultaneously observing Johann as he collects samples, weakening the Skaven, and helping the We establish a foothold.

[EIC] Instil corporate policy: always be scrupulously honest when dealing with Dwarves.

The reasons for this have been detailed at length. Do not fuck with dwarves over payments. It should also naturally segue into some of the other policies we want to instill.

[SOCIAL] Wolf is now fully grown, and is a very large dog or a regular-sized wolf. Train him. (increases his intelligence, may deepen Familiar bond)

We put this off last turn - we really do need to spend some time with what is likely to be a lifelong companion of ours, and in practical terms this is likely to boost Mathildes own development too.

Help the We establish their new nest below the Citadel.

Literally every plan is doing this, so I don't need to explain why it's important.

Spend time assisting with a fellow councillor's task: Gunnar, assist him with human burial rites.
-You have acquired the possession of the Temple where Ranald mugged Mork. Set up a shrine and spread knowledge of it throughout Karag Nar.

Everyone seems pretty much in agreement on this - we have pertinent knowledge that can help resolve one of his major issues, he's a potential friend who already helped us in a big way, and he's a potential source of greatsword training in the future.
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You will need to remove the x in the coin vote you pasted as it's over writing your previous citadel vote in the tally.
 
Kornet said:
While I am on your side, I'd say that the spiders keeping institutional knowledge does not really make the allience last longer.

I'd argue that sticking with oral tradition up to the point where everyone who lived before the allience was established while being in costant and active collaboration with them can lead to the point where We knows no other reality, and where cooperating with dwarfs is how things have always been and the alternatives would be strange and alien.

That's pretty 1986, but that would work and tie the spiders to us tighter than anything.
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Well, given how much better off the spiders should be with a dwarven alliance, I think we want them to preserve the records so that the We don't think the improved conditions are just new new normal they'd have either way, as that's what's natural, dwarf or not.
 
Kornet said:
While I am on your side, I'd say that the spiders keeping institutional knowledge does not really make the allience last longer.

I'd argue that sticking with oral tradition up to the point where everyone who lived before the allience was established while being in costant and active collaboration with them can lead to the point where We knows no other reality, and where cooperating with dwarfs is how things have always been and the alternatives would be strange and alien.

That's pretty 1986, but that would work and tie the spiders to us tighter than anything.
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> 1986

Huh, didn't know there's a sequel.
 
Alratan said:
As @Andmeuths pointed out above in much more detail than I want to, it is easy to make an argument that investigating Clan Mors is directly in service to helping the spiders successfully relocate. That has the Gambler's face assigned to it.

Remember, the question here is how our actions are perceived. Spending a lot of time on what happens beneath the Citadel in the turn that we've been told our job is to help our new allies relocate there can very easily be presented as being done in service to that goal. The fact that it also advances other goals is just gravy.
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This argument is absolute nonsense to me, it literally make no sense. We have already scouted Mors, the options available in the turn for Mors are not 'deeper scouting' and the winning write-in is not for that either, it is to probe potentially with some theft as that dovetails with Johann's desires and we are explicitly helping him. Maybe we don't have maximum information on Mors, but we at least know there aren't any major signs of them turning their attention on the dwarves. Thus we can pretty safely assume the Spiders have at least a turn of settling in before Mors is likely to do anything to them. You know what we have no information on? The third force putting pressure on Mors, which is also right next to the the We's new proposed home.

We're highly unlikely to gain anything significant towards securing the spider's safety. Simply put, Johann's personal goals do not align and he has no investment in them as of yet because he was gone for all of last turn and did not help out in the initial steps. My prediction is that the only way it will benefit the spider actions at all is if we crit and stumble on some large ongoing operation, that's not something to count on.
Derpmind said:
So I'm still back in year page 1795, but if someone else hasn't mentioned it yet, I've got a good reason why we should build the tower first before investigating the Snake Juice: Back when we were investigating the Shyish-kebabs, we had a second roll for figuring out the applications of the swords. The first roll was how well we did figuring out what it was, while the second was for finding uses for it:


While Mathilde figured out pretty well what the structure of the enchantment was, she didn't think our box of 49 swords was useful as anything but a store of Shyish energy. Building a tower to help enhance our experiments doesn't just increase our chances of identifying the structure of teh Snake Juice; it'll also help us find a way to actually use it. (Besides exploding it. It probably explodes well.)

[X] Plan Citadel Focus
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NavySeel said:
I also really want to put the coin bonus on it to maximize the potential results.
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Alratan said:
Particularly now we have two +20s.
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Boney has stated that that actual possible applications will be rolled without modifiers. The only think Gambler could help with is mitigating some disaster.

To be clear to everyone, Plan Not Really Preliminary Anymore is not really my preferred option, my own plan Plan Talk to me Baby (Spider) obviously is which doubles down much more on doing our job. But running off with Johann to not do our job wrankles me so much that I will vote for any other plan which does not have us doing that (even if it does no more with our actual job, it at least doesn't carry the risk of causing problems while we are explicitly trying to relocate our new allies).

My plans is this:

[] Plan Talk to me Baby (Spider)
-[] [JOHANN] Current Task: Have Johann investigate the properties of the spiders' webs.
-[] [MAX] Current Task: Teach the We written Reikspiel.
-[][EIC] Instil corporate policy: long-term financial good of the Empire.
-[] Teach the We Dwarven semaphore.
-[] Help the We establish their new nest below the Citadel. [ACTION 1][COIN]
--[] Gambler
-[] Request the translation item yourself (does not cost an action; converts 3 College Favour to Dwarf Favour).
-[] You have acquired the possession of the Temple where Ranald mugged Mork. Set up a shrine and spread knowledge of it throughout Karag Nar.
-[] Spend time assisting with a fellow councillor's task
--[] Assist Gunnar with burial rites
-[] Have a tower built atop Karag Nar: -100gc for 1 room, bonus to room's purpose.
-[] Wolf is now fully grown, and is a very large dog or a regular-sized wolf. Train him. (increases his intelligence, may deepen Familiar bond)
-[] [COIN] The Gambler
 
Alratan said:
Well, given how much better off the spiders should be with a dwarven alliance, I think we want them to preserve the records so that the We don't think the improved conditions are just new new normal they'd have either way, as that's what's natural, dwarf or not.
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I'll admit, part of me is seeing shades of "dwarves teaching humans about technology more advanced than rocks" in our treatment of the We.

Who knows, maybe a few millenia down the line the alliance between dwarf, human, and telepathic spider will have stood the test of time and have its own legends and heroes. :V
 
CuttleFish2.0 said:
But running off with Johann to not do our job wrankles me so much that I will vote for any other plan which does not have us doing that (even if it does no more with our actual job, it at least doesn't carry the risk of causing problems while we are explicitly trying to relocate our new allies).
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Our job is to relocate the spiders. We're doing that job. Getting communications setup with them isn't even part of the task but we've got a free action and a minion action on it.
 
Wouldn't the tower room be be better for our high ulgu lab than our magically neutral lab? We'll study snake juice in both once we have both so we can see the differences in how it reacts. It makes a difference who we get in to help optimise it though - ulgu will want a college expert for maximum wind purity and a Dawi emergency mass dispel, neutral will be all Dwarf. The maximum earthing of an excavated room is probably better for neutral too.
 
noliar said:
Wouldn't the tower room be be better for our high ulgu lab than our magically neutral lab? We'll study snake juice in both once we have both so we can see the differences in how it reacts. It makes a difference who we get in to help optimise it though - ulgu will want a college expert for maximum wind purity and a Dawi emergency mass dispel, neutral will be all Dwarf. The maximum earthing of an excavated room is probably better for neutral too.
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Tower gives bonus to all rooms. Wizards just work better in towers.
 
CuttleFish2.0 said:
This argument is absolute nonsense to me, it literally make no sense. We have already scouted Mors, the options available in the turn for Mors are not 'deeper scouting' and the winning write-in is not for that either, it is to probe potentially with some theft as that dovetails with Johann's desires and we are explicitly helping him. Maybe we don't have maximum information on Mors, but we at least know there aren't any major signs of them turning their attention on the dwarves. Thus we can pretty safely assume the Spiders have at least a turn of settling in before Mors is likely to do anything to them. You know what we have no information on? The third force putting pressure on Mors, which is also right next to the the We's new proposed home.

We're highly unlikely to gain anything significant towards securing the spider's safety. Simply put, Johann's personal goals do not align and he has no investment in them as of yet because he was gone for all of last turn and did not help out in the initial steps. My prediction is that the only way it will benefit the spider actions at all is if we crit and stumble on some large ongoing operation, that's not something to count on.
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It makes a lot of sense, because we know that the way that skaven deal with spiders is to pull out the warpflame throwers and burn them out. At the same time, Johann is after skaven warptech, and we've arranged the sequence of events for them to be in the same time and place. It's proper Grey Wizarding.

I don't know why you bring up deeper scouting. We don't need deeper scouting. We need more scouting of the same place to keep an eye on their reaction to the spiders' initial attacks so we can feed intelligence back, and we need to be in position to interfere, whether that's through sabotage, assassination, or simply stealing their stuff and running away laughing madly. If Mathilde isn't present she can't do anything, but this means she'll have her boots on the ground there and will be there to do what she needs, and will have an allied Gold Wizard who is perfect to mess with the enemies' equipment with her.

Johann might well not care, which is exactly why it's important to have Mathilde there with him to tell him that he has to help anyway.

The fundamental question is whether we think Mathilde is a robot that will blindly obey the letter of her instructions rather than react dynamically if she's put in position to do so.

Redshirt Army said:
I'll admit, part of me is seeing shades of "dwarves teaching humans about technology more advanced than rocks" in our treatment of the We.

Who knows, maybe a few millenia down the line the alliance between dwarf, human, and telepathic spider will have stood the test of time and have its own legends and heroes. :V
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Who's Spider Sigmar, and when are we making a magic item for him though?
 
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noliar said:
Wouldn't the tower room be be better for our high ulgu lab than our magically neutral lab? We'll study snake juice in both once we have both so we can see the differences in how it reacts. It makes a difference who we get in to help optimise it though - ulgu will want a college expert for maximum wind purity and a Dawi emergency mass dispel, neutral will be all Dwarf. The maximum earthing of an excavated room is probably better for neutral too.
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IIRC I think BoneyM had said that tower rooms always provide a better boost than the underground rooms, just due to thematic reasoning. Also we're not limited to one tower room and we'll be building another the turn after which probably will be the Ulgu room.
 
Alratan said:
Who's Spider Sigmar, and when are we making them a magic item though?
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I don't know, but I do know that our last name is Weber. So, if we're a human and the dwarves are dwarves, and the spiders are people, we know what we should call them to distinguish them from the giant spiders that aren't people.
 
Alratan said:
We need more scouting of the same place to keep an eye on their reaction to the spiders' initial attacks so we can feed intelligence back, and we need to be in position to interfere, whether that's through sabotage, assassination, or simply stealing their stuff and running away laughing madly
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Clan Mors: Get Get Warp Flame Flame Throwers for Spider Big Things Things!
Mathilde: No Warpflame Thrower for you. Yoink. Over to you Johann.
 
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