One of the sources we can use to create a spell is our Spell Masteries.
I think teaching an Apprentice a Mastery was described in a pretty similar way in terms of reliability:
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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
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- warhammer warhammer fantasy fantasy be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist pansexual protagonist ck2 quest divided loyalties mountain vietnam ranald is real this is a dwarf quest (dwarfs) this is maybe an elf quest this is not a vampire quest this is not an empire quest try it and find out open voting
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
One of the sources we can use to create a spell is our Spell Masteries.
I think teaching an Apprentice a Mastery was described in a pretty similar way in terms of reliability:
- Location
- Canada
To be fair wrt Eike and learning from us, we have been a seriously outsized influence in her life and worldview, so it's at least plausible that we could pass on some of that insight.
On the other hand, it's also pretty clearly going to be a diceroll thing instead of a guarantee. Potentially worthwhile, but a nebulous maybe at best. Whether or not that maybe is worth an action is an open question. There are lots of things that might go better if we get involved, but there are only so many things we can do at once. Is 'teach Eike Shadowsteed' something that we're committing an action to in next turn's plans? If not, she may as well learn it herself now.
On the other hand, it's also pretty clearly going to be a diceroll thing instead of a guarantee. Potentially worthwhile, but a nebulous maybe at best. Whether or not that maybe is worth an action is an open question. There are lots of things that might go better if we get involved, but there are only so many things we can do at once. Is 'teach Eike Shadowsteed' something that we're committing an action to in next turn's plans? If not, she may as well learn it herself now.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
On the other hand, we did already successfully pass on one Mastery.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
I don't think the extra time spent is worthwhile to keep open the unlikely possibility that Eike Masters that specific spell too. This quest has been going for almost 7 years now, Mathilde's been our protagonist for 22 in-quest years, and we've Mastered less than a fifth of the total spells we know. If a century from now Eike decides to learn the original way of casting Shadowsteed is a worthwhile endeavour she can do it then.
Besides which, 6 years is a long enough time - and close enough to the start of the quest - that Boney's stance on the matter might have changed. Especially having picked up an apprentice in the meantime.
@Boney, does teaching Eike a Mastery mean she is also unable to Master that spell herself in a different way?
Yes. Otherwise the Colleges would have a stack of recursively Mastered uberspells by now and this would be a whole other genre.
The Phoenixian
The Glacier Witch
- Location
- My own little world
Thinking about it I do feel like Portentive flows better on an introduction as the Portentive Organ... but, frankly, people so inclined will do that anyways. It's pretty implicit.
I could also see an expanded, ready-to-collapse-into-a-pun version of the name as "The Portentious Portative Organ, OR, the Portentive."
...I am tempted to prank the entire Empire and name it the three word version and see just how many times it gets shortened down to the pun. "Officially named the Portentous Portative Organ by four wizards who knew exactly what they were unleashing on the Empire's punsters..."
[] Portentious Portative Organ
As far as spells, I agree with the forming consensus that Sounds is a shoe in on multiple levels. Not only is it the final petty magic, but as others mention also because the new Portative is basically exposure to those themes.
In fact, it strikes me that the instrument might be seen as a very limited Sounds enchantment. It doesn't even form sound itself, but it does alter sounds played.
Beyond that, I feel like I'm drawn towards Magic Alarm, Magic Lock, and Blessed Weapon. All three lesser magics have strong ties to Eike's focus on interactions between the magic and the material.
I'm also drawn to Skywalk and Magic Mapping for similar reasons. Where the others are about magic's influence on the materials, those two are are treating magic as a material. Of them. Magic Alarm and Magic mapping stand out for how they play into Mathilde's understanding of magic through Warrior of Fog as well as general utility.
So in a very mutable order...
[]Sounds
[]Magic Alarm
[]Magic Mapping
[]Magic Lock
[]Skywalk
[]Blessed Weapon
Dhar playing in the minor key would basically mean that whenever three notes of a chord are played, or the key comes up in other ways, the interaction of the winds alters one of the notes. Which seems on point for both the spooky ominous music, and the way Dhar works in corrupting the interactions of the winds.
(It'd be funny if this meant that this also, accidentally, made the Portentive sensitive to Qhyash. With the Harmony of the winds rendering everything in a Major key instead. Alas, it would be just sheer chance, as no means to test and guarantee was available.)
I could also see an expanded, ready-to-collapse-into-a-pun version of the name as "The Portentious Portative Organ, OR, the Portentive."
...I am tempted to prank the entire Empire and name it the three word version and see just how many times it gets shortened down to the pun. "Officially named the Portentous Portative Organ by four wizards who knew exactly what they were unleashing on the Empire's punsters..."
[] Portentious Portative Organ
As far as spells, I agree with the forming consensus that Sounds is a shoe in on multiple levels. Not only is it the final petty magic, but as others mention also because the new Portative is basically exposure to those themes.
In fact, it strikes me that the instrument might be seen as a very limited Sounds enchantment. It doesn't even form sound itself, but it does alter sounds played.
Beyond that, I feel like I'm drawn towards Magic Alarm, Magic Lock, and Blessed Weapon. All three lesser magics have strong ties to Eike's focus on interactions between the magic and the material.
I'm also drawn to Skywalk and Magic Mapping for similar reasons. Where the others are about magic's influence on the materials, those two are are treating magic as a material. Of them. Magic Alarm and Magic mapping stand out for how they play into Mathilde's understanding of magic through Warrior of Fog as well as general utility.
So in a very mutable order...
[]Sounds
[]Magic Alarm
[]Magic Mapping
[]Magic Lock
[]Skywalk
[]Blessed Weapon
Good news! It's the leading contender.
This one struck me while reading and after a bit I think it makes sense. It's...been a while, but IIRC the Minor Key vs the Major Key is basically down to the formation of the chords and other times when notes are played together. Moreover both keys are very mathematical in how they're formed since it's basically about the spacing of the notes to be played. The Minor key just has a few notes lower placed than the Major. (I'm sure it's more complicated and there's more variation, but that's the student's version.)
Dhar playing in the minor key would basically mean that whenever three notes of a chord are played, or the key comes up in other ways, the interaction of the winds alters one of the notes. Which seems on point for both the spooky ominous music, and the way Dhar works in corrupting the interactions of the winds.
(It'd be funny if this meant that this also, accidentally, made the Portentive sensitive to Qhyash. With the Harmony of the winds rendering everything in a Major key instead. Alas, it would be just sheer chance, as no means to test and guarantee was available.)
- Location
- Canada
Looking into this more closely, I hadn't quite internalized the significance of the +1 magic from learning all the petty spells when picking them off the list. It'd be totally reasonable to pick up Sounds and two "Relatively Simple" spells, since they won't actually be risky to cast after learning Sounds! The more complex MMAP is clearly superior to the simplified version if Eike can cast it reliably... but aside from that, there are some real bangers on the "Relatively Simple" list... stuff like Doppleganger, Take No Heed, and Mindhole! I still think it'd be neat if Eike learned at least one of our signature spells (MMAP is a good pick for this), but given the kind of things Eike is starting to get up to, having access to some higher-level sneaky magic seems like a good idea, and Take No Heed seems like the most currently-useful of the sneaky list.
[ ] [SPELL] Sounds
[ ] [SPELL] Mathilde's Multidimensional Aethyric Projection
[ ] [SPELL] Take No Heed
[ ] [SPELL] Sounds
[ ] [SPELL] Mathilde's Multidimensional Aethyric Projection
[ ] [SPELL] Take No Heed
- Location
- Aotearoa
For myself, while I'm very happy for the Petty and Lesser spells to be filled out in standard classes (with the probable exception of Blessed Weapon for our Mastery), I still want Eike's first true Ulgu spell to be taught by Mathilde, which isn't what's happening in this action.
I think my vote will be:
[ ] [SPELL] Sounds
My main choice- finish Petty, face your challenges, boost Magic score.
[ ] [SPELL]Dispel
There's innumerable spells that use or shape magic, but this one to disrupt and shut all of them down.
[ ] [SPELL]Magic Alarm
[ ] [SPELL]Magic Lock
Useful utility and personal-safety spells for an increasingly independent young woman
[ ] [SPELL]Skywalk
Might make it in later, depending on how many votes any Simple spells are getting. (The structure of the vote means a super-high roll possibly could be too successful for my desires.)
I think my vote will be:
[ ] [SPELL] Sounds
My main choice- finish Petty, face your challenges, boost Magic score.
[ ] [SPELL]Dispel
There's innumerable spells that use or shape magic, but this one to disrupt and shut all of them down.
[ ] [SPELL]Magic Alarm
[ ] [SPELL]Magic Lock
Useful utility and personal-safety spells for an increasingly independent young woman
[ ] [SPELL]Skywalk
Might make it in later, depending on how many votes any Simple spells are getting. (The structure of the vote means a super-high roll possibly could be too successful for my desires.)
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What are people thinking about the enchantment thing? I'm honestly in two minds—giving Eike a basic education will let us share our insights, but letting her develop her own path will allow her to leverage own strengths.
- Location
- Aotearoa
I think I'd rather give her a chance to build on her own insights and advantages here. (So, Freeform education).
It'd be nice to think Mathilde could learn something from Eike one day, and perhaps see her surpass us in this field.
There are so many other fields where we're passing on our unique insights and thus shaping her, materials used in Enchantment is an area where she has a clear opportunity to blaze her own unique trail, should she so choose. (Plus, she doesn't have our intrinsic knack for it, we'd never be working from an exactly equivalent base).
It'd be nice to think Mathilde could learn something from Eike one day, and perhaps see her surpass us in this field.
There are so many other fields where we're passing on our unique insights and thus shaping her, materials used in Enchantment is an area where she has a clear opportunity to blaze her own unique trail, should she so choose. (Plus, she doesn't have our intrinsic knack for it, we'd never be working from an exactly equivalent base).
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As I recall, we can codify spells with masteries, and I thought those spells can get new masteries (after some thought i don't know if that was ever said, just that it works that way for new spells, and I guessed it extends). However, codifing spells is hard, and the version with masteries is even harder.
So my guess would be that recursively mastered spells are possible, just takes a lot of time, because the codification step is a large barrier, and the Colleges aren't that old.
That could explain how the Nekharans did some real shit. Though on the other hand, those spells don't really match what you'd expect from such a process, and people like the Druids should have them too.
So either there's some metaphysical distinction between the main part of the spell and the mastery of which there can only be one...
Or I'm poking the abstraction too hard.
Could you clarify that?
You are describing two different things
Recursive: Wizard A -> Masters -> Codifies -> Wizard B -> Masters -> Codifies -> Wizard A etc...
Both wizards A and B would become experts in that spell to the point where they could just keep churning it out with more and more fidelity, faster and faster
Linear: Wizard A -> Masters -> Codifies -> General Pool -> Gets picked up -> Wizard B -> Masters -> Codifies -> General Pool -> Gets Picked Up -> Wizard C etc...
While the spell may get better, or at least more adapted to the specific tradition in time there is no building on expertise to the point where you can alter the spell with infinite plasticity and reliability.
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I disagree. What matters is that a spell gets more and more masteries stacked on top of each other, becoming more and more flexible and powerful. Whether it's two wizards or a bunch of them doesn't matter
Tasoli
Life is for Living
- Location
- Behind the Keyboard.
I would be more interested in passing on our own Enchantment insight if we had more of it. We have not made use of it all that much tough so our ability is fairly medicore in practice even if we know the theorical material. Only thing I would want to pass on would be Colligate Runecraft really. Mostly thinking that thanks to Mathildes abilities with multiple languages are probably useful for it. But we don't have all that much aside from that.
So better to let her blaze a trail of her own. Especially since her focus on mundane material supporting enchantements is fairly interesting path to go and probably good for humans to figure out since it means in the future more mundane effort could be leveraged for magical works.
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Can Mathilde write a paper on the new magic bridges infrastructure.
Sure you get a more powerful spell...
That spell also is harder to cast I'd assume. So by the time you evolve and codify masteries to turn a swadowsteed into a pegasus that zips around the battlefield, you've already have Battle Magic.
Parabola
Divided Loyalties Librarian
- Location
- The Destination of Fate
- Pronouns
- She/Her
IIRC in the process of codifying, things could end up better or worse for the spell that others end up learning.
I imagine that it's entirely possible that if we succeed in the difficult task of codify our Shadowsteed mastery (if we succeed at all!), it could end up as something that it takes a Magister to learn, not a Journeyman, because in the process of trying to explain our logic to others, it requires more power or more control than Mathilde normally needs, or something like that.
Someone else Mastering that resulting spell might make it weirder, and codifying that would also be hard.
Unrelated, but:
I imagine that it's entirely possible that if we succeed in the difficult task of codify our Shadowsteed mastery (if we succeed at all!), it could end up as something that it takes a Magister to learn, not a Journeyman, because in the process of trying to explain our logic to others, it requires more power or more control than Mathilde normally needs, or something like that.
Someone else Mastering that resulting spell might make it weirder, and codifying that would also be hard.
Unrelated, but:
I imagine these are accidental uses of the second person plural? That first one should probably be "Teclis gave the Colleges Apprentices", and the second one probably "if you're being honest".
She didn't actually work with the enchanters directly, so probably not, honestly.
That's another possibility, though so far masteries haven't increased difficulty. Though perhaps they would in the codification process.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
I think the first one works with the 'us' being the Colleges?
- Location
- New Brunswick, NJ
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
[X] [PORTATIV] Portentiv
Great suggestion, obvious best option IMO.
[X] [SPELL] Sounds
Last Petty Magic, get her that +1 and deal with her mental block.
[X] [SPELL] Blessed Weapon
A useful spell to have for a gish, and I just don't think Mathilde's Mastery in this is so good that Eike needs it specifically. Let her develop her own Mastery.
[X] [SPELL] Dispel
A very important utility spell for wizards.
Not interested in having her learn RS spells at this time, since learning those traditionally (see the start of the quest) marks readiness to go out and Journey, and I don't think we're quite there yet, so I'm not voting for any.
[X] [ENCHANT] Freeform
As alluded to earlier, I'm a big believer in Eike blazing her own trail and not just being stamped out in Mathilde's image (to the point where, uh, I wrote a whole-ass omake about it). The great virtue of the Collegiate approach to magic, the mystical and personal approach, is that it opens the door to diversity of gifts and paradigms instead of everyone's approach to magic being the same. Eike may not be able to do exactly the same things we can -- but we should rejoice every time she learns to do something that we can't.
Great suggestion, obvious best option IMO.
[X] [SPELL] Sounds
Last Petty Magic, get her that +1 and deal with her mental block.
[X] [SPELL] Blessed Weapon
A useful spell to have for a gish, and I just don't think Mathilde's Mastery in this is so good that Eike needs it specifically. Let her develop her own Mastery.
[X] [SPELL] Dispel
A very important utility spell for wizards.
Not interested in having her learn RS spells at this time, since learning those traditionally (see the start of the quest) marks readiness to go out and Journey, and I don't think we're quite there yet, so I'm not voting for any.
[X] [ENCHANT] Freeform
As alluded to earlier, I'm a big believer in Eike blazing her own trail and not just being stamped out in Mathilde's image (to the point where, uh, I wrote a whole-ass omake about it). The great virtue of the Collegiate approach to magic, the mystical and personal approach, is that it opens the door to diversity of gifts and paradigms instead of everyone's approach to magic being the same. Eike may not be able to do exactly the same things we can -- but we should rejoice every time she learns to do something that we can't.
Sir_Travelsalot
Never wakes up tired.
- Location
- At Home
[X] [PORTATIV] Bellowing Organ of Omens
[X] [PORTATIV] Portentiv
[X] [PORTATIV] Portentiv
[X] [PORTATIV] Portentiv
Good name is good.
[X] [SPELL] Sounds
[X] [SPELL]Skywalk
[X] [SPELL]Move
[X] [SPELL]Dispel
Sounds to finish off Petty Magic is the only one I'll really insist on. I think Skywalk, Dispel and Move are good utility spells, but any other Lesser Magic is fine as far as I'm concerned.
[X] [ENCHANT] Freeform
This feels like a no-brainer. Eike should develop her skills in a way that fits her unique talents, rather than aping Mathilde's skills for the sake of it.
Good name is good.
[X] [SPELL] Sounds
[X] [SPELL]Skywalk
[X] [SPELL]Move
[X] [SPELL]Dispel
Sounds to finish off Petty Magic is the only one I'll really insist on. I think Skywalk, Dispel and Move are good utility spells, but any other Lesser Magic is fine as far as I'm concerned.
[X] [ENCHANT] Freeform
This feels like a no-brainer. Eike should develop her skills in a way that fits her unique talents, rather than aping Mathilde's skills for the sake of it.