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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Blackout said:
Runic staffs, at least in the novels, seem to be used in a similar fashion as Earthing Rods, only they are used to ground enemy spells rather than miscasts:
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Thanks for quoting all this.

I'm not a fan of Runic staffs functionally being the same as a wizard's staff, complete with magical chanting to cast spells. One of the great things about runesmithing as a magic tradition is that it's all about creating magical items, not being a magical person. That limitation, and the ways runesmiths can work around it and exceed anyways, makes it unique and interesting.

However, I will concede that if runesmiths could create staffs like this, they absolutely would.
Simon_Jester said:
I think there's a way to square the circle of "Kragg, you are the ultimate example of a traditionalist in the setting, and yet you have invented a rune that did not exist before you."

It is traditional for a 'proper' master to create a masterpiece: a genuinely original work of the finest quality. Creating a master rune is part of the tradition; not all traditions involve strictly copying things that were done before.
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I suspect genuinely new runes don't work with DL's deep lore as to how runecrafting works. We've seen runes be combined and altered, but there may be a finite set of runic elements that runesmiths use.
 
Derpmind said:
Thanks for quoting all this.

I'm not a fan of Runic staffs functionally being the same as a wizard's staff, complete with magical chanting to cast spells. One of the great things about runesmithing as a magic tradition is that it's all about creating magical items, not being a magical person. That limitation, and the ways runesmiths can work around it and exceed anyways, makes it unique and interesting.

However, I will concede that if runesmiths could create staffs like this, they absolutely would.
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I could easily imagine a staff of spell-grounding that doesn't require magical chanting or anything, to at least partially save the runesmith's aesthetic.

I suspect genuinely new runes don't work with DL's deep lore as to how runecrafting works. We've seen runes be combined and altered, but there may be a finite set of runic elements that runesmiths use.
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Ah. I confess that the relevant deep lore had slipped my memory.

Well, in that case, there would be no problem for an arch-traditionalist, since they by definition cannot create anything outside the envelope of the possibility space the ancestors created for them. If none of your work can be truly original, then there's no problem!
 
Derpmind said:
I suspect genuinely new runes don't work with DL's deep lore as to how runecrafting works. We've seen runes be combined and altered, but there may be a finite set of runic elements that runesmiths use.
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Simon_Jester said:
Well, in that case, there would be no problem for an arch-traditionalist, since they by definition cannot create anything outside the envelope of the possibility space the ancestors created for them. If none of your work can be truly original, then there's no problem!
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I don't think so. I believe the principles of Runesmithing can be used further than Runesmiths use them in DL. However, Runesmiths view themselves as emulating the work of Thungni. They will use his work differently than he did, but will not create something entirely new, even if it is based off the same principles. That is why Kragg was reticent about reverse-engineering the runes on the axe that Moulder had. As far as the Karaz Ankor knew, the Norscan dwarfs had stuck to that. Apparently the Chaos Dwarfs did not stick to that.

Boney said:
Runesmiths don't see Runesmithing as magical techniques, they see it as the sacred lore of Thungni. That's why they seek to rediscover lost lore instead of trying to invent anything new, because they believe that the only legitimate Runesmithing is descended from Thungni. Inventing runes would be profane, and using Chaos Dwarf runes would be outright heretical.
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Derpmind said:
I'm not a fan of Runic staffs functionally being the same as a wizard's staff, complete with magical chanting to cast spells. One of the great things about runesmithing as a magic tradition is that it's all about creating magical items, not being a magical person. That limitation, and the ways runesmiths can work around it and exceed anyways, makes it unique and interesting.
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I will admit that the War of Vengeance trilogy has a bad habit of treating Runesmiths as Dwarf Wizards, but these are specifically noted to be ancient Runelords that were vanishingly rare even back then, and I think it works to show how much has been lost about the Runes.

The way I prefer to think about it personally, even if the books don't get too deep into the mechanics of it all, is that Runestaffs are just items that hold runes that have an effect beyond enhancing the item itself, and the chanting is just an activation phrase that the rune responds to. So for an example, you know how if you put multiple Runes of Fire into a runic weapon, it gains the ability to shoot out fire like Sunfang? The Runelords shooting fireballs out of their staffs have just inscribed Runes of Fire into their runestaffs, perhaps a specialized variant that only has the function of shooting out fire rather than also enhancing it as a melee weapon, allowing them to also put other runes onto it.

So it's less Wizard and more Artificier: the Runesmiths can't cast spells, but they can make an item that creates a spell-like effect. Or at least Golden Age Runelords could.
 
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Seeing Andres break down 4e Dwarfs really does solidify that 1e is still the most flavorful.

Boney said:
If I was a Runesmith, I would simply not grant the Runes I create the local omniscience it would require to determine the exact identity and range of all Runes within the bizarrely precise distance of 100 yards.

aaaaaaaaaa
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Yes.
Boney said:
aaaaaaaaaaaaAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
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Correct.
Boney said:
They did it, didn't they? Those fuckers broke up the Divine Polycule.
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Ambiguous as others have said. Only Grungni is ever mentioned as her husband explicitly. (THEY FRIDGE HER IN THE END TIMES AND NOW THEY DE-CANONIZE HER CANONICAL HAREM ROUTE ENDING. THEY HATE TO SEE A GIRL WINNING)

Andres said:
There's also rules for bending the Rule of Form.
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Harumph.
Andres said:
Overall, the new runes are pretty good! There's a bunch of civiliany/utility runes that you wouldn't get from a wargame, which is exactly the kind of thing you want to see in the TTRPG version of Warhammer.

There's one final thing at the end of the chapter I'd like to quote.
The named master runes aren't merely rediscoveries, they're new creations, as new as any newfangled engineering nonsense. Both vaunted runesmith arch-traditionalists, Kragg and Thorek, have decided to break tradition in their craft.
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The temporary Runes actually being missing, and, in an older version of the book I have, a few Runes listed on the Priest careers that didn't actually exist anywhere in the book makes me want to disagree with this.
Behold!

Older versionNewer Version
Priests of Grungni may inscribe the following runes:
Alarm, Blasting, Enemy Detection, Forging, Furnace,
Preservation, Purification, Verminkill, Warding, Warmth,
Warning, and Water.		Priests of Grungni may inscribe the following runes:
Alarm, Courage, Enemy Detection, Forging, Fortitude,
Furnace, Preservation, Purification, Verminkill, Valiant,
Warding
Priests of Valaya can inscribe the following runes:
Alarm, Battle, Enemy Detection, Healing, Light,
Preservation, Purification, Resistance, Restoration,
Sanctuary, Silence, Slowness, Spell Breaking, Verminkill,
Warmth, Warning, Water

A High Priest of Valaya can also inscribe the Master Rune of Valaya.		Priests of Valaya can inscribe the following runes:
Alarm, Battle, Courage, Enemy Detection, Purification,
Restoration, Sanctuary, Slowness, Spell Breaking,
Stalwart, Verminkill

A High Priest of Valaya can also inscribe the Master Rune of Valaya.
Priests of Grimnir can inscribe the following runes:
Battle, Breaking, Clear Seeing, Cleaving, Courage,
Cutting, Farseeing, Fear, Fury, Might, Signalling, Silence,
Slowness, Smiting, Striking, Warning		Priests of Grimnir can inscribe the following runes:
Battle, Breaking, Clear Seeing, Cleaving, Courage,
Cutting, Discovery, Farseeing, Fury, Might, Slowness,
Striking, Retribution
Gazul's priests didn't have Cult Runic Magic
DESPITE GAZUL FOUNDING THE CULTS AND
USING THE RUNESMITHS TO STAFF THEM

Alarm, Enemy Detection, Locking, Restoration,
Retribution

Gazul High Priests may also inscribe the Master Rune of
Banishment.
Priests of Smednir may inscribe the following runes:
Cleaving, Cutting, Fate, Fire, Forging, Furnace, Iron,
Silence, Smiting		Priests of Smednir may inscribe the following runes:
Cleaving, Cutting, Fire, Forging, Furnace, Iron, Truth,
Warding
Priests of Thungni rarely inscribe runes, leaving such
tasks to runesmiths. Should there be a need, priests are
restricted to the following:
Alarm, Communication, Disclosure, Enemy Detection,
Luck, Sanctuary		Priests of Thungni rarely inscribe runes, leaving such
tasks to runesmiths. Should there be a need, priests are
restricted to the following:
Alarm, Clear Sight, Enemy Detection, Luck, Sanctuary,
Restoration, Truth
Priests of Morgrim may inscribe the following runes:
Accuracy, Alarm, Burning, Clear Seeing, Disguise,
Enemy Detection, Farseeing, Forging, Fortune, Furnace,
Immolation, Penetrating, Reloading, Seeking, Signalling

High Priests of Morgrim may inscribe the Master Rune of Defence.		Priests of Morgrim may inscribe the following runes:
Accuracy, Alarm, Burning, Clear Seeing, Disguise, Enemy
Detection, Farseeing, Forging, Furnace, Immolation,
Penetrating, Reloading, Seeking

High Priests of Morgrim may inscribe the Master Rune of Defence.
Notes:
Weirdly they dont include the Master Runes of Grungni or Grimnir for their respective Cults, or in the books despite sources for both being extant.
They also don't HAVE THE MASTER RUNE OF BANISHMENT LISTED ANYWHERE ELSE BESIDES IN THAT SECTION FOR GAZUL
The section about Priests of Thungni leaving that stuff to the Runesmiths bothers me on an aesthetic level, but that's personal taste because I made the whole Runesmith is a Priest is a Guild is a Clan thing in my quest.

I may go looking for more details, because I noticed they also nerfed Anvils of Doom there, and that bit about the Rune of Spelleating changed as well between what you read and the older book I have.

How did they make my big bunch of asshole divas into an even more petty bunch of asshole divas. And not always in the fun way!

On the whole, where's the proof-reading for this? Its like multiple parties did each section but never actually got around to making sure it was all coherent afterwards. Or it was one guy doing it in manic bursts of inspiration who never went back to see if what he added made sense with the old stuff.
This is what I expect from QM's like me, not a published piece of work! Andres did they hire you for this? I trusted you to protect the sacred texts! /jk

Anyway the fiffle diffle.

Tangent the 1st, they randomly removed quotes from a male priest of Valaya and a female priest to Grungni from their career pages.

Tangent the 2nd, as part of my due dilligence I did check Winds of Magic to see if those Priest Runes appeared there as well. (this was before I realized they just got straight excised from being mentioned)

They don't.

But I did re-find this.

The Hammer of Glorri — A magical, talking hammer first created for the adventurer Glorri the Quiet. The runes
carved on the hammer imbue it with magical potency when wielded against Goblins and Snotlings. However, it also profanes
like an Altdorf stevedore in the presence of said creatures, making it wholly unsuitable for use in adventures and confrontations
requiring stealth. Mistletaine's journals indicate this item was procured in Skeggi from the Dwarven trader Torgrim Torisson.
A reputable Dwarf with whom I have enjoyed many a satisfactory transaction, Torisson, is believed to have obtained the
hammer from another respected dealer of the obscure and desirable, Falstaff of Marienburg. However, the fact Falstaff is
one of five dealers who also claim to own the tongue of Abrax the Bloody makes me doubt the true origin of this item.
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Fare thee well!
 
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Parabola said:
The idea that Gazulite priests just mogged both Settra, Nagash and all subsequent necromancers like that is very amusing.
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Of course.

Imagine needing Magic to stave off death because you're afraid of it, or needing it to claw your way back out of the afterlife too! Manling and Elf Nonsense.

Just come back! taps forehead

Like climbing up some stairs! Who can't walk up a few steps!?

EDIT: Funny mental image and flavour for a setting that spawned from this.

Dwarf Necromancers probably have the easiest time raising the dead compared to anyone else practically speaking, the difficulty is actually getting your Ancestor to agree that this task is actually difficult enough that you can't do it yourself.
 
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soulcake said:
Dwarf Necromancers probably have the easiest time raising the dead compared to anyone else practically speaking, the difficulty is actually getting your Ancestor to agree that this task is actually difficult enough that you can't do it yourself.
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Dwarf necromancers have a hard time raising the dead (because you need to convince great grandpa that he's actually needed.) and then an even harder time getting them to go again (because now great grandpa is here he's seeing all this shoddy work the clan is doing and HE WONT STAND FOR IT!)
Many a witchhunter has been hired to get an resurrected dwarf elder to lay still again.
 
Gazulite necromancy is actually just sending a message to the glittering realm with some details of the current state of affairs, the dead rise on their own after that. They are actually fully sentient and capable of speech, but are too apoplectic with rage for that to show.
 
Human necromancers raise mindless undead and send them to fight their foes.
Dawi priests send message to their ancestors who are too furious to take things lying down.
 
I wonder if there would be some interest in a turn dedicated to getting as much as possible out of a trip to Ulthuan, using to opportunity of travelling to the island anyway to meet some mover and shakers and try to get them invested in the project and get Nexus technology.

-[*] Waystone: Negotiate with Ulthuan for details of how to create a Nexus
-[*] Waystone: Negotiate with Ulthuan to re-erect Barak Varr's Nexus
-[*] [ ] [ ] Travel to Nagarythe at the invitation of Ambassador Daroir, and join their eternal war against Naggarothi invaders for three months.


As for other actions, if we want to split the Elfcation on two turns, I could see studying the foundation and building a cheap waystone for mass deployment over vast tracks of land as synergistic. Be more prepared for the Nexus know-how and add a precious new offering to incentivize sharing Nexus information.

-[*] Study the Waystone foundation enchantment for enchanting technique insights
-[*] Waystone: Build a Waystone (cheap waystone)
 
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Thought on runes- maybe it's not the structure of anything, it's just that the rune has to exist and be defined in the glittering realm before it'll work in reality? Like, creating a rune is simply inscribing it in the glittering realm and saying what it does, there's no actual rules except access. Then as long as you remake it the same way outside...

So we'd be in a situation where you could, in theory, create new runes but no one has done it since Thrungi, and there's no way to logically deduce how to construct a new rune from first principles because those don't actually exist. So all new runes are just a rediscovery of older work, but that is possible because it's about understanding how a particular dwarf habitually carved things. You get an example, you get a hint to any materials, then you just kinda try to reproduce it using the same angles and strikes the ancestor good would have.
 
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