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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Koguyra said:
Big Brain Play is to offer the Runefang to the Imperial Dwarf.
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Is the Imperial Dwarf kept in the next exhibit over from the Imperial Dragon? /s


Main problem with trying to offer something like that to as widely dispersed a group of people as 'the Imperial Dwarfs' is that they'd then need to figure out how they're going to determine who's actually in charge and making the decisions.


(Fun fact on the term 'Imperial Dwarfs'- I believe the term first appears in 1e Stone and Steel, which for some reason can't decide if it's referring to Dwarfs living in the Empire or those living in the Karaz Ankor)
 
Mopman43 said:
Main problem with trying to offer something like that to as widely dispersed a group of people as 'the Imperial Dwarfs' is that they'd then need to figure out how they're going to determine who's actually in charge and making the decisions.
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Altdorf: Crown of the Empire says that the Imperial Dwarfs traditionally select one of their elders to represent them in the Emperor's privy council, which would seem like a natural choice, but ACotE is a 4th edition book so the position might not even exist in Boneyverse.
 
Glau said:
The question is whether those consequences are better than a war.

Personally, I think yes.
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Those conseuqences are likely still a war. Just not one where the Empire seeks to reconquer Marienburg. Ignoring the possibility of a Marienburg civil war, you now have someone with an Elector seat who is likely alienated from the web of alliances and repect that keeps the current Empire together and has no reason to not say, start pushing Nordland and Middenland towards a war to profit off it.
 
Blackout said:
Altdorf: Crown of the Empire says that the Imperial Dwarfs traditionally select one of their elders to represent them in the Emperor's privy council, which would seem like a natural choice, but ACotE is a 4th edition book so the position might not even exist in Boneyverse.
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Doesn't he only represent the Altdorf Imperial Dwarfs anyway?

(I'm sure he generally fights for the rights of non-Altdorf Dwarfs as well, but they don't seem to have a role in his selection)
 
Does the Emperor/any of the Electors have any advisory assemblies? The Empire seems pretty skeptical of democracy so I doubt it but I might as well ask.
 
dinomannitro6 said:
Does the Emperor/any of the Electors have any advisory assemblies? The Empire seems pretty skeptical of democracy so I doubt it but I might as well ask.
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There's apparently something called the Prime Estates, of which we know little beyond this:

Article:
More often the Electors are a fractious lot, scheming against each other as often as they cooperate. Wars between the Grand Provinces have not been uncommon in the Empire's history, fuelled by religion, pride, or a need for revenge—or sometimes all three. When not plotting against each other, they work to ensure the Emperor does not grow too powerful. One result of this latein the 11th century was the creation of the Electoral Embassies and the Prime Estates. The rulers of each Grand Province established a residence in the capital, an embassy run by a trusted family member. This person in turn sits in council with the other envoys in the Prime Estates, which functions as a form of review board. The ambassadors examine any new Imperial edicts or laws and make reports back to their Electors. Since Electors have it within their power to ignore any Imperial decisions they do not like, gaining the approval of the Prime Estates has become important to the Emperors, if they want to accomplish anything

...

In theory, the Emperor is free to make whatever laws and regulations he or she wishes and have it apply to the whole of the Empire. The truth is more nuanced, for laws must pass the review of the Prime Estates, who report to the Electors. A bad report is often all the excuse an Elector needs to quietly not enforce the law or deny it altogether, in times of a weak emperor.
Source: Heirs of Sigmar


So less of a parliament and more of the UN Security Council.
 
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It's interesting that one power of an elector is literally just to ignore the emperor. That has some wild implications I feel...
 
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Sparsebeard said:
Some people who argue against openly sowing discontent in a (relatively) neutral polity don't argue for war. Peace is better than both a war AND this gimmick.
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All else equal, sure. But.

My assumption is that the empire will force an annexation at some point in the near future. With Ulithan and the empire bound into the new treaty guaranteeing the same thing as Marianburg being independent does (continued flow of magic), and having recently annoyed both the empire and the dwarves, this is the best chance empire revanchists have seen in years.

So I see the possibility of a win/win for Mathilde and Heidi here: a way to lure Marianburg back into the empire without blood on the hands of the imperials, and a way to neuter the most powerful single faction that opposes wizards politically.

And, honestly, I think I'm a lot more in line with Mathilde's personal opinions and biases in proposing this than the objections to it are.
 
Glau said:
And, honestly, I think I'm a lot more in line with Mathilde's personal opinions and biases in proposing this than the objections to it are.
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Included in those objections are things like, 'they won't want to pay taxes' and 'they won't want to put in the effort to win and have to subordinate themselves to someone else.' It would also be all but impossible to assuage the ego of the Empire enough to do that. Giving up a Runefang to secessionists? Down with the Holswig-Schliesteins!

Each and every one of those objections makes it a nonstarter.
 
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Tobtorp said:
It's interesting that one power of an elector is literally just to ignore the emperor. That has some wild implications I feel...
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Despite the name, the Emperor ultimately rules by the consent of his or her fellow Electors, and they're pretty touchy about their provincial independence and how much they can be forced to do for the wider Empire (or even for themselves!). There's only so much soft power the Emperor can really throw against an Elector to sway their positions.

Besides, not all laws bear the same weight. If it's an actually important law then the Electors can probably understand that if they refuse to do it there will be consequences for breaking it and thus not even consider it; and if it's minor enough or doesn't have any real purpose then the Elector may well openly flaunt it. The Electors will only risk the consequences for breaking laws that they feel are either middle-of-the-road or truly unjustified against them.

In-quest we've already seen Konstantin (the Wissenland Elector) not letting the Emperor's forces into Nuln to help out with the Skaven.

MrHobbit said:
Giving up a Runefang to secessionists? Down with the Holswig-Schliesteins!
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"I'm keeping this until the next Emperor shows more sense, I swear," - L.M. Weber, channeling the energy of L.M. Wilhelmine.
 
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Fooger does have a good head on his shoulder at least. And having a Dwarf as an Elector Count means they'll last for a good while and think long term enough to not play silly buggers like the human houses would do. He seems like a good compromise option on paper.
 
Koguyra said:
Fooger does have a good head on his shoulder at least. And having a Dwarf as an Elector Count means they'll last for a good while and think long term enough to not play silly buggers like the human houses would do. He seems like a good compromise option on paper.
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If the question was 'we need to pick an EC for Marienburg' sure but that preassumes Marienburg's subordination to the Empire.
 
Well, after a lot of reading, I have finally caught back up again... I have a bad habit of finding it easier to start from the beginning.

Things have gone well for us since I last checked in!
 
I'd like to echo what was said by WestOrEast, Fooger may be a dwarf but when Mathilde asked about him the family was described as digging through silt, tunneling in and out. Considering the Dwarven fondness for mining references this strikes me as a extremely practical mindset. They are here to make money, they prefer long term profits like most dwarfs wanting to build something to last, yet my take on that statement is that every process is a process. Any gain you have is on that one specific issue and there is no using that as a basis for further cooperation, no saying we agree on this but how about this. No you start at the beginning like a new relationship. Not to mention I imagine the Fooger family is benefiting from independent Marienburg more than they would a united Empire. Internal rivalries mean they ignore them, and they are able to take the long term beneficial contracts with little argument, every internal division is a chance to pull more to them, and like any dwarf they will do anything to keep what they have.

To be frank, any idea of taking Marienburg is very far in the future if ever. In the event it was taken any Elector Count would need popular support within the city but I doubt any from the city would be ok with absorbing the hatred of everyone who benefitted from independent Marienburg, which means influential outsider. Someone reliant enough on the Empire that they won't have their own thoughts of splitting, but independent enough to handle the bucking bronco of 10 merchant families (that once ran the whole shebang), 4 powerful cults and a semi-independent mages college. I imagine it would be a naval officer from the 1st or 2nd fleet, someone who has aided Marienburg traders in keeping the seas clear, but clearly and powerfully bound to the Empire.
 
Glau said:
You know, we can use dwarves and elves to launder our perspectives. So they come in and say 'huh, as third parties with a new era of engagement encouraging us to take a closer look, it seems a bit weird for one cult to have so many votes. Maybe you should rebalance a bit.' And they say it to Heidi and Leopold in semi public. Let the rumors spread a bit.

So it's not coming from us, and we stay apolitical. We just give a Ranaldite empress casus belli to trim the sails of an institution likely to be hostile to the interests of her son.
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The Sigmarites have three votes because of Magnus the Pious. Picking that fight means going against a sacred tradition established by the greatest of Sigmar's Heirs and the vast institutional wealth and power of Sigmar's Church. It seems like a fantastic way to ensure that Manfred is never elected, or that his reign is remembered as an object lesson in not messing with the Sigmarites. An Emperor who feuds with Sigmar's priesthood is not destined for success. He may be heading for an early grave.

Do the elves ask for advice on the election of the Phoenix King? Are there umgi diplomats providing feedback on the choice of the dwarven High King? No? Then why would the Empire overturn their sacred traditions, traditions established by Magnus himself, because a bunch of foreigners spread some foolish rumors?

The faith of Ranald is small, weak, and frequently persecuted by the ruling class. The faith of Sigmar is enormous, powerful, and entrenched among the ruling class. How do you think a conflict between them is going to end?

Glau said:
Personally I'd give some power to the guilds. Maybe like a 'guild of guilds' seat, so the non-nobles have some representation beside cults.

The other seat I'd hold open for the one to bring Marianburg back into the empire, along with a runefang, and see how long it takes an ambitious house in the city to make a play. It sets up around fun incentives, and will eventually get us the port back without armies fighting.
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This entire plan reveals a misunderstanding of how power in the Empire works.

It doesn't matter what you want to do. It matters what you can get the Electors to support. The feudal warlords aren't going to welcome some random guildsman as an equal. They say No, and they have the swords.

They might fight among themselves, but Marienburg's merchants are done being ruled by a bunch of arrogant hick warlords. Any house that accepted such a deal would promptly be mobbed and destroyed by their peers, who don't want to go back to the Empire.

Glau said:
Nothing. It would make the city and most of the families in it worse off.

It'll happen because it makes one family much better off.

This is just divide and conquer.
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Math suggests that the one family is going to have a very unpleasant time when all of the great merchant families (and the minor ones) unite to murder them.

You're dividing, sure, but one side has a family stupid enough to believe that they can get away with this, while the other side has...everyone else in Marienburg.

Glau said:
All else equal, sure. But.

My assumption is that the empire will force an annexation at some point in the near future. With Ulithan and the empire bound into the new treaty guaranteeing the same thing as Marianburg being independent does (continued flow of magic), and having recently annoyed both the empire and the dwarves, this is the best chance empire revanchists have seen in years.

So I see the possibility of a win/win for Mathilde and Heidi here: a way to lure Marianburg back into the empire without blood on the hands of the imperials, and a way to neuter the most powerful single faction that opposes wizards politically.

And, honestly, I think I'm a lot more in line with Mathilde's personal opinions and biases in proposing this than the objections to it are.
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Other people have agency.

Mathilde tends to forget this. From time to time, so do people in the thread.

Marienburg has an enormous pile of money, as many mercenaries as they want to hire, and their own college of wizards. They are also located in the middle of a swamp; good luck laying siege to them, especially when their merchant marine can keep the city supplied.

The Empire has wanted to play stupid revanchist games for a long time. But the Empire is a squabbling mass of feudal warlords, and they're terrible at working together. How many lives are you willing to throw away in the marshes around Marienburg? Will you gamble the lives of your soldiers on the belief that the Asur won't ride to the rescue?

The Sigmarites are the most powerful single faction that opposes wizards politically. In fact, they are vastly more numerous and important than the Colleges of Magic, and their hatred of wizards is shared by the majority of the Empire's common people. Attempting to "neuter" them is going to end very badly for the people who try.

There's this odd emphasis on cleverness, as though being clever magically gets you what you want. But it doesn't matter how clever you are when your enemies are more numerous, more heavily armed, and extremely willing to resort to violence.
 
The fundamental reason the Cult of Sigmar gets three votes is because they won the civil war on a technicality - Magnus was a devout Sigmarite and rallied the people with the sign of the twin-tailed comet, so they get to claim the win despite the silly little 'tried to burn him at the stake' thing. The Wolf Emperors and Ottilian Emperors tied for second so they got offered a vote each as a consolation prize. The Marienburg Emperors lost and they didn't have an Elector Count left when the music stopped so they got nothing. The Reikland Emperors lost the support of the Cult of Sigmar so they got nothing and the capital moved to Nuln (until it got destroyed).

If you want to rearrange the votes, have another civil war and win it.
 
The geographical bias of the sigmarites to their heartlands is destabilizing long term, it disadvantages the non-sigmarite majority provinces too much to have the largest voting block be solidly behind not!them. Either Sigmarism takes over the empire (booo hisss!) and the geographic bias is mitigated, or there's another civil war, or something clever happens.

So yeah, long shot schemes to rebalance now, because when the ulricans resolve their differences they'll be looking outward again.

dptullos said:
The faith of Ranald is small, weak, and frequently persecuted by the ruling class. The faith of Sigmar is enormous, powerful, and entrenched among the ruling class. How do you think a conflict between them is going to end?
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Counterpoint: submitting to authority because they are powerful is about the least ranaldian thing ever.

dptullos said:
Other people have agency.
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I feel like you apply and discard the this principle as it suits you? Like, the empire wouldn't actually be doing anything in Marianburg, there's no our side vs their side. All we are doing is turning the city from a playing board to a prize and letting the nature of independent agents take it's course. All vs all rather than one vs the rest.

Likewise with the rebalancing of the EC. The new votes need to be able to put together an army, so Marienburg, moot, all the guilds put together, a unified border princes, or a break away bretonian/kislevian province are the options, ignoring any other issues. But at least 2/3 of the empire benefits from putting 2 votes back into play for themselves instead of committed opposition, so the lift seems possible.
 
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