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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Blackout said:
The Cult of Ulric are explicitly stated to hate the rule and see it as a politically-imposed farce.

The bigger problem is that repealing the celibacy vows would probably result in the Cult of Ulric going back to creating dynasties, with priests marrying each other and then handing their posts to their children.
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This is basically what the sigmarites are already doing. Its what every religion that doesn't have a vow of celibacy does.
 
Aranfan said:
This is basically what the sigmarites are already doing. Its what every religion that doesn't have a vow of celibacy does.
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None of the other cults have (obligatory) celibacy vows, and they don't start dynasties.

  • Manann's an incredibly moody and temperamental god whose own strictures asides from "oppose Stromfels" are basically guidelines, so there's little point in seeking dominance over the rest of the cult by claiming your family line is blessed by Manann. Sure, maybe it's plausible that Manann dallied with some mortals at some point and had children? But who knows if Manann would actually favor his family line over his regular followers.
  • Morr's cult does not seek power over its many branches or wants to obtain secular power, and almost all its initiates join it of their own initiative, so it's counterproductive twice over to start a 'dynasty' where you'd be forcing your family line to join. In fact I don't even think they have a vow of celibacy, because even Morr has Shallya and Myrmidia as children, and any followers that have children themselves are going to be in the minority, being as deeply aware of death as they are.
    • (In fact, you can draw a direct contrast between the way the Cult of Morr works, and the way the Mortuary Cult in Nehekhara worked: the Mortuary Cult sought secular and religious power, and it forced the firstborn child of the king to be given over to the temple. Had there not been this centralization of power, perhaps Nagash would have remained a mere mortal king. A tyrant, but not a monster that ended up leaving such a stain upon history. Perhaps the Cult of Morr, deeply aware of history, seeks to avoid a similar mistake.)
  • Verena's cult may have a lot of organization on the local levels, but on the scale of the continent it's incredibly decentralized so there's no point for them to having one.
  • Myrmidia's cult is overshadowed by how Tilea and Estalia both claim they're Myrmidia's chosen people and that the other nation should be subordinate to them. Trying to start a 'dynasty' would first require solving that national-scale problem.
  • Shallya's cult actively shies away from politics or seeking secular power, because they universally believe those detract from the Cult's main purpose: trying to ease suffering in the world. Any Shallyan trying to start a dynasty is going to be given funny looks by their fellows at minimum.
  • Ranaldians are the most loose and disorganized Cult of them all, more informal even than Verena. One of Ranald's faces is that of reformists and revolutionaries, and another is that of liars - how would you meaningfully start a dynasty without it collapsing overnight? Maybe you could make a "dynasty" of thief-princes or something, dedicated to the Night Prowler? But even then it'd be a losing battle. it may as well be easier to start a dynasty of literal cats.
  • Sigmarites are naturally the most organized and hierarchical Cult in the Empire, they don't need dynasties to assert power over its many branches. Hell, Sigmar himself had the opportunity to start a dynasty and having children and he didn't take it - his lesson is that of how the blood of the covenant is stronger than the water of the womb. So Sigmarites overall don't seem like they have a dynasty, even if they may well integrate family members into the formal Cult. Politically, their position is pretty unassailable.

Ulricans are unique in that not only do the Teutogens claim they were Ulric's chosen people, they also have a centralized location of religious importance. And even then Ulricans across the Empire are clearly chafing at how they gotta listen to a centralized authority that doesn't really represent them.

Edit: I forgot about the Cults of Taal and Rhya. I don't really know enough about them to say this with complete certainty, but given how the Cult of Taal is made up mostly of wandering loners who worship the wild, I can't imagine they place all that much emphasis on a human political construct like it. The Cult of Rhya is focused on fertility and the well-being of communities, so while they definitely have many families, I can't imagine they care all that much for building power up via them.
 
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reignonyrparade said:
To be totally honest, this mostly read to me like you're using an overly narrow definition of 'dynasty'.
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Well, certainly the other cults have families, but "dynasty" has a distinct political connotation to it, I think. The term gets used in relation to the Cult of Ulric because it was feared that they would, in fact, overshadow or compete with the Elector of Middenland, unlike other cults which don't typically get involved in secular affairs.

What's your definition? And what examples would you present of the other cults having them?
 
HanChenYou said:
I think I disagree with this point.
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I mean, they definitely get involved from time to time, but the other cults don't get so involved in secular affairs that they have Electoral votes, do they?

It's believed that Taalites were offered one but turned it down:

Boney said:
The only significant changes Magnus made to the electoral system was giving a third vote to the Cult of Sigmar and one to the Cult of Ulric. It's widely believed that he offered one to the Cult of Taal, but if so, they turned it down. He also began the Grand Conclave to be held every five years for the Cults of the Empire to hash out their differences peacefully.
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And none of the others would have been really good options to be given votes to either.
 
Andres said:
@Boney where did you get the term Yen-Eltharin for the Eonir's dialect of Eltharin? Original invention?
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Yes, I wanted something equivalent to Tar- and Fan-, and the fragment 'Yen' that appears in Yenlui (balance, harmony, chaos) and Yennla ('The Seed', promise of Isha) seemed the most appropriate. As far as I know there's no substantial canon lore about the language the Eonir speak, most of the language lore in general seems to have been set down circa 6th/2e and not touched since, and back then it was still ambiguous whether Laurelorn was an outpost of Athel Loren or its own thing.
 
Andres said:
At least as of WFRP 4e: Sea of Claws, Cothique definitely lets humans in to trade in Tor Koruali. Tor Yvraine too given its presence in the Gazetteer of International Ports.
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Just found out that Tor Yvraine was an error. It's Tor Yvresse that's on the gazetteer of international ports in WFRP 4e: Sea of Claws, which would mean our good friend Eltharion presides over a city where humans go to trade.
 
I think that kids growing up to do their parents jobs is a staple part of pre modern society. So I would expect most priestly positions that allow kids to be filled by said kids.

That's what dynasties are, right?
 
Glau said:
I think that kids growing up to do their parents jobs is a staple part of pre modern society. So I would expect most priestly positions that allow kids to be filled by said kids.

That's what dynasties are, right?
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It doesn't even have to be nepotism. If you grew up with it, you might have 10+ years of experience on someone who got there later. Plus connections, but that's hard to separate from nepotism.
 
Boney said:
Nexus-to-nexus transmission is usually built atop an existing leyline, but Waystone-to-Waystone can build its own leyline if it has the suction from the Great Vortex to provide the momentum. If you get right down to it, technically any well-established river could be described as a Ghyran leyline.
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Oh semi-related

How common are natural Leylines? Are they rare enough that its a sign that the holds locations were specifically planned for each one to have a leyline? Or does the chamon conductivity of the mountain ranges Dwarf holds are made in mean it would be harder to find a good mountain that isn't on a leyline?
 
Dark as Silver said:
Oh semi-related

How common are natural Leylines? Are they rare enough that its a sign that the holds locations were specifically planned for each one to have a leyline? Or does the chamon conductivity of the mountain ranges Dwarf holds are made in mean it would be harder to find a good mountain that isn't on a leyline?
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The entire World's Edge Mountains can be considered one enormous natural leyline.
 
Doing a bit of rereading, and picked up a few minor typoes:

Boney said:
and is entirely made up on the hardest and most tedious part of enchantment.
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made up on-> made up of
Boney said:
There's no reason to assume they had four seasons just because we had
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because we had -> because we do
Boney said:
You'd guess that if you briefed the Council of State on this, the first follow-up question they'd have is about whether it would by possible to bypass them,
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it would by possible -> it would be possible
 
Parabola said:
None of the other cults have (obligatory) celibacy vows, and they don't start dynasties.

  • Manann's an incredibly moody and temperamental god whose own strictures asides from "oppose Stromfels" are basically guidelines, so there's little point in seeking dominance over the rest of the cult by claiming your family line is blessed by Manann. Sure, maybe it's plausible that Manann dallied with some mortals at some point and had children? But who knows if Manann would actually favor his family line over his regular followers.
  • Morr's cult does not seek power over its many branches or wants to obtain secular power, and almost all its initiates join it of their own initiative, so it's counterproductive twice over to start a 'dynasty' where you'd be forcing your family line to join. In fact I don't even think they have a vow of celibacy, because even Morr has Shallya and Myrmidia as children, and any followers that have children themselves are going to be in the minority, being as deeply aware of death as they are.
    • (In fact, you can draw a direct contrast between the way the Cult of Morr works, and the way the Mortuary Cult in Nehekhara worked: the Mortuary Cult sought secular and religious power, and it forced the firstborn child of the king to be given over to the temple. Had there not been this centralization of power, perhaps Nagash would have remained a mere mortal king. A tyrant, but not a monster that ended up leaving such a stain upon history. Perhaps the Cult of Morr, deeply aware of history, seeks to avoid a similar mistake.)
  • Verena's cult may have a lot of organization on the local levels, but on the scale of the continent it's incredibly decentralized so there's no point for them to having one.
  • Myrmidia's cult is overshadowed by how Tilea and Estalia both claim they're Myrmidia's chosen people and that the other nation should be subordinate to them. Trying to start a 'dynasty' would first require solving that national-scale problem.
  • Shallya's cult actively shies away from politics or seeking secular power, because they universally believe those detract from the Cult's main purpose: trying to ease suffering in the world. Any Shallyan trying to start a dynasty is going to be given funny looks by their fellows at minimum.
  • Ranaldians are the most loose and disorganized Cult of them all, more informal even than Verena. One of Ranald's faces is that of reformists and revolutionaries, and another is that of liars - how would you meaningfully start a dynasty without it collapsing overnight? Maybe you could make a "dynasty" of thief-princes or something, dedicated to the Night Prowler? But even then it'd be a losing battle. it may as well be easier to start a dynasty of literal cats.
  • Sigmarites are naturally the most organized and hierarchical Cult in the Empire, they don't need dynasties to assert power over its many branches. Hell, Sigmar himself had the opportunity to start a dynasty and having children and he didn't take it - his lesson is that of how the blood of the covenant is stronger than the water of the womb. So Sigmarites overall don't seem like they have a dynasty, even if they may well integrate family members into the formal Cult. Politically, their position is pretty unassailable.

Ulricans are unique in that not only do the Teutogens claim they were Ulric's chosen people, they also have a centralized location of religious importance. And even then Ulricans across the Empire are clearly chafing at how they gotta listen to a centralized authority that doesn't really represent them.

Edit: I forgot about the Cults of Taal and Rhya. I don't really know enough about them to say this with complete certainty, but given how the Cult of Taal is made up mostly of wandering loners who worship the wild, I can't imagine they place all that much emphasis on a human political construct like it. The Cult of Rhya is focused on fertility and the well-being of communities, so while they definitely have many families, I can't imagine they care all that much for building power up via them.
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Say what you will about the Sigmarites, their god set one hell of a positive example in his life and it helps to curb the worst of the cult's influences.

Between Sigmar and Magnus, their greatest saints are ones whom set phenomenal examples of leadership, courage, and determination while also deliberately choosing to relinquish their power back to the Empire they had forged (or reforged) rather than have any heirs.

I imagine that the Cult of Sigmar has a certain cultural and traditional weight towards members who go out and actually live by Sigmar's example being promoted over politically savvy schemers (not to say that the second category doesn't win out a lot--it does--but when someone pulls a Mathilde, good luck getting in their way).

The Cult of Ulric is a bit different because it has fairly strong racial undertones. Where Sigmar's example is good-faith unification and emphasizing deeds over origin, Ulric's people have a very long history that centers around one people. That may be changing, however...hopefully for the better.
 
SaltyWaffles said:
Say what you will about the Sigmarites, their god set one hell of a positive example in his life and it helps to curb the worst of the cult's influences.

Between Sigmar and Magnus, their greatest saints are ones whom set phenomenal examples of leadership, courage, and determination while also deliberately choosing to relinquish their power back to the Empire they had forged (or reforged) rather than have any heirs.
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Magnus had an heir. His brother. He just didn't get the Emperor job because he'd pissed off the Grand Theogonist of the time.
 
deathofrats0808 said:
Magnus had an heir. His brother. He just didn't get the Emperor job because he'd pissed off the Grand Theogonist of the time.
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Sure, but since when has the truth been important when creating your national mythology? The truth makes the sigmarites look petty and perhaps even impious, and Magnus look short-sighted or naive. Isn't it nicer to just pretend that it was Magnus following in Sigmar's example? And if that pressures the sigmarites to interfere with governance less and stick to their strictures closer, I don't think anyone but power-hungry priests will object to that side effect.
 
Excited for when Dame Weber (but naturally not Lady Magister Mathilde of the apolitical Grey Order), Guardian for the young Mandred, is through a very unlikely series of events and amusing coincidences empowered in an Electoral Commission-style role in the Imperial Election, which notably is an institution where Sigmarites and their three votes flourish.
Boney said:
Disdain for Sigmar: Abelhelm Van Hal died abandoned by Sigmar. You intend to return the favour. +1 Piety due to renewed faith in other gods, will not let Sigmarism flourish in institutions she controls - penalty to institutional actions unless worship of another god is instituted.
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You know, we can use dwarves and elves to launder our perspectives. So they come in and say 'huh, as third parties with a new era of engagement encouraging us to take a closer look, it seems a bit weird for one cult to have so many votes. Maybe you should rebalance a bit.' And they say it to Heidi and Leopold in semi public. Let the rumors spread a bit.

So it's not coming from us, and we stay apolitical. We just give a Ranaldite empress casus belli to trim the sails of an institution likely to be hostile to the interests of her son.
 
Glau said:
You know, we can use dwarves and elves to launder our perspectives. So they come in and say 'huh, as third parties with a new era of engagement encouraging us to take a closer look, it seems a bit weird for one cult to have so many votes. Maybe you should rebalance a bit.' And they say it to Heidi and Leopold in semi public. Let the rumors spread a bit.
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Since most people in the Empire are Sigmarites, that would just engender a lot of ill will towards the elves if they said it (as it would be viewed as a foreign polity trying to hinder the dominant faith of the Empire) and confusion if the dwarves said it (since dwarves are big on venerating their ancestors and Sigmar is pretty much the ancestor god of the Empire, and they have a lot of respect for Sigmar himself for the alliance between the Empire and Karaz Ankor, which marked the end of the Time of Woes).

Overall, I think it would be a bad idea that would create backlash on anyone we roped into it, if they actually did so (I am very confident that the dwarves would not do so, and would likely judge it right and proper for the manlings to listen to the sage advice of the highest priests of their one Ancestor God for the selection of their next High King analogue).
 
Glau said:
You know, we can use dwarves and elves to launder our perspectives. So they come in and say 'huh, as third parties with a new era of engagement encouraging us to take a closer look, it seems a bit weird for one cult to have so many votes. Maybe you should rebalance a bit.' And they say it to Heidi and Leopold in semi public. Let the rumors spread a bit.
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I'm not sure it'd come across better if a completely outside force to the Empire was the one saying it.

Who would you give their votes too, anyway? Taal and Rhya are just about the only bet, but the Cult of Taal has supposedly already rejected it but still probably wouldn't be okay with the Cult of Rhya getting a vote if they don't have one.

Manaan is out for basically being a vote given to Marienburg, Myrmidia is out for the same reason for Tilea/Estalia, Verena is decentralized and not necessarily popular with the nobility that they try to judge, Shallya and Morr try to stay out of politics, and Ranald is obviously not happening.
 
Dwarves are also a lot into people failing to live up to their ancestors to varying but entirely calculable degrees. Calling out the current Sigmarite church on being a fuckpile of failure at living up to their tenets compared to the Ulricans, Taalites, Stirlanders, random mercenaries, Halflings, and bloody wizards wouldn't be particularly weird except as a wakeup call to jackasses who take them for granted.
 
consequences said:
Dwarves are also a lot into people failing to live up to their ancestors to varying but entirely calculable degrees. Calling out the current Sigmarite church on being a fuckpile of failure at living up to their tenets compared to the Ulricans, Taalites, Stirlanders, random mercenaries, Halflings, and bloody wizards wouldn't be particularly weird execpt as a wakeup call to jackasses who take them for granted.
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I'm not sure if the Karaz Ankor wants to judge worthiness by support for Belegar's expedition.

Or at least, I don't think the Old Holds want that to be the standard.
 
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