Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Voting is open
@picklepikkl can you grab me the Boney quote where he talks about how the setting likes to talk about how the various nations are getting worse and poopy, but that it's undercut by the bevy of strong cool leaders that they have nowadays so it actually looks like civilisation is on an upswing?
 
@picklepikkl can you grab me the Boney quote where he talks about how the setting likes to talk about how the various nations are getting worse and poopy, but that it's undercut by the bevy of strong cool leaders that they have nowadays so it actually looks like civilisation is on an upswing?

Yeah, as much as GW couldn't help but stuff Swords of Damocles into the lore at every opportunity, the canonical 2500s of Warhammer Fantasy is a renaissance. Karl Franz and Louen Leoncoeur and Katarin Bokha are all great rulers willing and able to step up to the challenges of the world, and Thorgrim Grudgebearer and Finubar the Seafarer weren't exactly punching the clock and waiting for doom to take them either. It's a time of heroes and marvels, and evil needed a mulligan to win.
 
Last edited:
So, I'm still thinking on a elfcation preparation plan, I still think we should get as much of an in into who our opponents in Nagarythe will be. And we have a rare access to drucchi factions that actively want to build links and don't suspect we are going to go on a rampage in Nagarythe. Better try and get as much as possible from the Drucchi delegation before we potentially sour our relations.

Hell, if we can extract useful military information and use it successfully against rival drucchi factions it could even provide blackmail material. After all, if the information they passed us helps Ulthuan they might not want their "treachery" to be used by their rivals.

I'd just love to do an INTRIGUE turn with the deceiver face. So much potential for this facet of the coin when investigating Drucchi and negociating with them (with the intent of "betraying" them next turn by using the info to help Ulthan and hurt Naggaroth as a whole but hopfully also helping the direct interests of the faction enough that they continue dealing with us.

The elfcation could potentially advance our interest both with the Drucchi and the Asur. I I refuse to think that having a better understanding of our enemies won't provide more depth.

Building a new model of waystone (I'd love to try a cheap collegiate version that could be built at small cost to cover large areas and extend the network further out) and starting to roll up our Deluxe Waystone in Praag should ensure that the Waystone Project's momentum doesn't drop yet.

Anyway let me know what you think of the current version.

[o] Plan : Know thy foe, and be prepared (for elfcation)!
- [o] Waystone: Build a Waystone (Collegiate Fascis/Wizard Rune/Cheap Material Storage/Collegiate Foundation/ Leyline Transmission).
- [o] Waystone deployment: Praag.
- [o] Receive training: Advice on negociations and conflict with Drucchi (Walther Kupfer).
- [o] Spend time investigating a character without their knowledge: Dreadlord Ylrishen.
- [o] Spend time investigating a character without their knowledge: Sorceress Myrielh.
- [o] Enter into negotiations with the Druchii delegation to Laurelorn.
- [o] EIC: Assist in the creation of the magical route through the Schadensumpf, both personally and with the EIC's influence and resources.
- [o] KAU: Hire educators to teach a language or group of languages to your scribes (Eltharin).
- [o] Write a book: Aetheric Vitea (2/2)
- [o] COIN: The Deceiver
- [o] Eike Actions : EIC, KAU, drucchi courses, waystone deployment.
- [o] Eike Study : Lesser magics
 
Last edited:
We sort of need a maximally cheap waystone to propagate leylines with.

Our current waystone's major feature is its dual river/leyline transmission, allowing it to be used as beachheads. But we can't actually expand out from that initial beachhead by connecting a new one via leyline, since leylines between waystones can only by requesting one from central control using the password.

To fix this, we can build a cheap connection between the closest leyline waystone to our beachhead waystone. Once that connection is set up, then more waystones can be constructed to start expanding outwards.

Over time, we can expect the cheaper waystones to deteriorate or need maintenance. But even if downstream leylines are disconnected, the ones upstream still function as we found out on our empire waystones investigation trip. So our beachhead waystone will maintain its connections, and would be dumping all the collected magic into the river.
 
We sort of need a maximally cheap waystone to propagate leylines with.

Our current waystone's major feature is its dual river/leyline transmission, allowing it to be used as beachheads. But we can't actually expand out from that initial beachhead by connecting a new one via leyline, since leylines between waystones can only by requesting one from central control using the password.

To fix this, we can build a cheap connection between the closest leyline waystone to our beachhead waystone. Once that connection is set up, then more waystones can be constructed to start expanding outwards.

Over time, we can expect the cheaper waystones to deteriorate or need maintenance. But even if downstream leylines are disconnected, the ones upstream still function as we found out on our empire waystones investigation trip. So our beachhead waystone will maintain its connections, and would be dumping all the collected magic into the river.
This logic would be sound if Waystones created leylines as part of connection to one another, but unfortunately that is not how it works -- leylines were created by the Old Ones, and have been repurposed to serve the needs of the Waystone Network. As such, "beachhead" riverine leylines that have hybrid transmission are an astonishingly cool idea, but only have a limited use case: this would work in places where leylines are present but where Waystone density is so low that it would take a long chain of new Waystones to link up with the existing Network. As far as I know, the only places that suit this description are Sylvania and remote northern Kislev:
One use of river leyline Waystones would be to immediately start radiating them out from every population center in Sylvania, instead of having to work your way in from eastern Stirland or southern Ostermark. There's also a lot of northern Kislev that's a very far way away from a functioning Waystone but close to a river.
The problem is that these are places that are heavily corrupted and maybe dumping all of that bad juju into the local river mouths is suboptimal -- certainly Mathilde made that point when talking to Tzar Boris. I still think a cheaper more-mass-producible Waystone is worth doing, but after we start a production run of the current Waystone model and see where the bottlenecks are. Before that point, we're just theorizing about what the most important things to optimize are.
 
So, I'm still thinking on a elfcation preparation plan, I still think we should get as much of an in into who our opponents in Nagarythe will be. And we have a rare access to drucchi factions that actively want to build links and don't suspect we are going to go on a rampage in Nagarythe. Better try and get as much as possible from the Drucchi delegation before we potentially sour our relations.
Four actions is extreme, to say the least. People will just be exhausted by the amount of Druchii. It might even spark a delay in the Elfcation. It isn't necessary either. I think Mathilde is pretty well prepared for this. Kupfer lived in the cities, he isn't the best source on the Shade clans that Malekith dumps in Nagarythe. And I doubt we can get much out of the other characters about them. I'm open to the Druchii deal though.

I don't see much point in your waystone plans. We can get Runesmiths on the continent. There's no point in cutting them out there. Runesmiths will want to put their name on the Waystone Project. We need to create a Runesmith-less waystone for Ulthuan, but there's no point in sending them a waystone without the Golden Age storage. Similarly, while the Golden Age Storage will slow things down, that enchantment is extremely damn good. I'd rather make waystones that will last the next four millennium.

Putting waystones in Praag right now is pointless. picklepikkl has already brought us telling Boris that he should forgo loads of gold from Ulthuan in exchange for leyline waystones. We can't put leyline waystones in Kislev unless we investigate their network first. Laurelorn should get the first batch of waystones. They're the project host and they provided the most contributions to the Project. It'd be snubbing them to not honor their contributions by giving them priority.

The Collegiate Fascis also has the problem of turning off when magic density is high, either that or it can't absorb as much magic as the other capstones can.

To fix this, we can build a cheap connection between the closest leyline waystone to our beachhead waystone. Once that connection is set up, then more waystones can be constructed to start expanding outwards.
Our current waystone can be placed in areas without water, it just won't drop magic into rivers unless it is placed on one. I think that's a waste of effort.

I feel like we can just make a leyline variant of our current waystone.
 
This logic would be sound if Waystones created leylines as part of connection to one another, but unfortunately that is not how it works -- leylines were created by the Old Ones, and have been repurposed to serve the needs of the Waystone Network.

Are we talking about the same kind of leylines? The ones that can be disconnected and reconnected by speaking a control phrase in Anoqeyån to the waystone?

You concentrate and speak a control phrase of Anoqeyån to deactivate the Waystone, and note that the flow from upstream continues unabated. "Energy is still coming in," you note. "So the instruction to halt the flow of incoming energy is communicated by the control mechanism. I suppose that makes sense, with it removed there's no way to communicate against the flow."

[...]

"So far it seems like halfway between our two hypotheses," you observe. "There's some sort of central control mechanism, but the flow can continue when cut off from the greater network, up until the Waystones reach capacity." You look to Zlata. "And if the flow was maintained instead of being dammed, and energy was being taken out at least as fast as it is being added, then it could last indefinitely." Zlata returns your gaze, gives it some thought, and nods.
 
Are we talking about the same kind of leylines? The ones that can be disconnected and reconnected by speaking a control phrase in Anoqeyån to the waystone?
My understanding is that you connect the Waystone to the leyline with command phrases, and you can't connect two arbitrary Waystones with a command phrase if there's no leyline between them. This is one reason why Waystone distribution is fairly geometrically regular, because the Old Ones, fetishists for tidy mathematics that they were, set up leylines in cardinal and intercardinal directions. I gather that stuff got messed up when the world shifted around between then and now, but we still primarily see them set up that way.

Like, imagine that the Old Ones set up a set of sewer pipes long ago and then left. The elves and dwarves built connecting pipes up to the surface that could send stuff down into those and then repump it over to the next one (the analogy isn't perfect, but that's why blockages can happen), but they were still beholden to where the sewer pipes were. That's the impression I got from the leyline and network research actions, anyway, and maybe I misunderstood them.
 
My understanding is that you connect the Waystone to the leyline with command phrases, and you can't connect two arbitrary Waystones with a command phrase if there's no leyline between them. This is one reason why Waystone distribution is fairly geometrically regular, because the Old Ones, fetishists for tidy mathematics that they were, set up leylines in cardinal and intercardinal directions. I gather that stuff got messed up when the world shifted around between then and now, but we still primarily see them set up that way.
My understanding was that leylines only work because of their connection to the Great Vortex. Two arbitrary Waystones can't connect to each other in isolation, but if one is connected to the network of leylines that lead back to the Great Vortex, the second can be connected to the first so long as they're close enough together.

I don't recall seeing anything indicating we need to build Waystones where the Old Ones used to have their connections. The geographic tidiness is because that makes the flow more efficient.
 
Last edited:
I definitely got the impression that the modern leylines at least, are in fact made by the Central Waystone Controlling Entity between any two eligible waystones. I think I remember it being by pushing through a large amount of magic at once where the new leyline is needed?
 
My understanding is that you connect the Waystone to the leyline with command phrases, and you can't connect two arbitrary Waystones with a command phrase if there's no leyline between them. This is one reason why Waystone distribution is fairly geometrically regular, because the Old Ones, fetishists for tidy mathematics that they were, set up leylines in cardinal and intercardinal directions. I gather that stuff got messed up when the world shifted around between then and now, but we still primarily see them set up that way.

Like, imagine that the Old Ones set up a set of sewer pipes long ago and then left. The elves and dwarves built connecting pipes up to the surface that could send stuff down into those and then repump it over to the next one (the analogy isn't perfect, but that's why blockages can happen), but they were still beholden to where the sewer pipes were. That's the impression I got from the leyline and network research actions, anyway, and maybe I misunderstood them.
There is an actual benefit to setting up in cardinal directions, its not just inherited. It makes leylines easier to form and maintain. As seen with the belthani tributaries not having to send magic as deep underground by being directly cardinal with the waystone.
 
The Elves of the Golden Age had placed waystones just about everywhere in the Reik basin to my understanding. It's just that many of the leylines dissipated after millennia of decay. You can create leylines, as long as you are starting from a waystone connected to the network. You use the password that tells Caledor to create a leyline in whichever direction you're talking about.

Leylines are created on cardinal directions because that is the most efficient way for magic to travel.

You'll want leyline waystones in Sylvania at some point though, and in many other places too. There's many waystones still functioning that aren't connected to the network. Many of the places were Sylvanians live is going to be clustered around those waystones that are making other places worse. We can't stop the dhar bombs unless we link up to those once again.

I've also noticed that some links between Waystone Nexuses are in exact east-west or north-south lines."

"Energy flows along the cardinal directions are easiest to maintain," Cadaeth says. "And ordinal ones, to a lesser extent."
"I assume among the keyphrases Teclis didn't share with us, there's one to point the network towards a new Waystone and let it do the work. I don't suppose Laurelorn has that information?"
Chances are that somewhere from many to most of [the waystones] aren't part of the network any more, they're making one place livable at the cost of making another place nasty even by Sylvania standards.
 
The Elves of the Golden Age had placed waystones just about everywhere in the Reik basin to my understanding. It's just that many of the leylines dissipated after millennia of decay. You can create leylines, as long as you are starting from a waystone connected to the network. You use the password that tells Caledor to create a leyline in whichever direction you're talking about.
That's not my understanding of leylines. Frol what I understand leylines just are, independently of waystones. But waystones are necessary to send magic through them to the Vortex.
 
That's not my understanding of leylines. Frol what I understand leylines just are, independently of waystones. But waystones are necessary to send magic through them to the Vortex.
There were leylines around before the Asur began dotting the world with waystones. The Asur used waystones to direct them to drain magic into the Great Vortex and add onto those leylines.

For instance. There are dormant leylines between Praag and Erengrad, and Castle Alexandronov and Kislev City. The Ice Witches are the ones who created the Castle Alexandronov nexus, so the Old Ones didn't do that. There weren't any leylines connecting Tor Lithanel to Fort Solace before the Asur created a nexus at Fort Solace.

Look at the first two quotes I cited. There's also this bit from the update before the second quote.

Waystones serve two purposes. They absorb magic in the region and they also serve as relays for the leylines. Which is why if you destroy a waystone, the leylines connected to it will dissolve, but the waystones beyond it will continue because they're keeping the momentum going. The network only has so much range.

"That would be an advantage for something like this," Hatalath says. "Channelling it through the air would be easier, but it would also be disrupted the first time a bird flew through it, let alone what a storm of magic would do. Planting the leylines in stone frontloads your difficulties - it's a huge challenge to set up, but once it's set up it'll last."

"Magic may not flow through stone particularly quickly, but it does so reliably," Thorek says in agreement. "It doesn't change its speed based on the time of day or phase of the moon or because of the emotions of passers-by."

"I'll grant you that, but that answers the 'why', not the 'how'. If you just pumped magic deep underground it'd radiate out in every direction, it wouldn't conveniently flow to wherever you directed it."

"Momentum?" Elrisse hazards. "A constantly-maintained effect that makes the leylines the most conducive path?"

"Or a permanent change," Sarvoi says, "either comparable to an enchantment, or an actual physical channel running between the Waystones."

"Whatever it is, either it's inherently reversible or bidirectional, or the Ice Witches are already capable of recreating them, considering that magic currently flows from Kislev City to Praag."
 
Last edited:
Hobbit's right. Once you establish leylines via the ground, they persist due to momentum - the magic that flows through it won't suddenly stop, even if another waystone further 'down the line' gets destroyed.

The Old Ones did make their own leylines and had the "Geomantic Web", and then that was repurposed to create the original network in the first place, but I can't imagine that was the case for even the majority of nexuses, let alone 'regular-sized' waystones.
 
Last edited:
There was also a comment by Boney about how we could probably brute force our own leylines without the passwords but it would take magic on the level of actual expenditure of orbs of magic.

Caledon can just use some of the energy that would've gone into the Vortex to do it when you use the password
 
Voting is open
Back
Top