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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Andres said:
Taal and Rhya each got one vote, which they both refused.
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Possibly. 2e treats the two as one unified Cult that was offered 'an Electoral position', which was rebuffed. That can be read a few different ways - the wiki interprets it as an offer to make the Hierarch of Taal an Elector, but Taal and Rhya getting one each is not incompatible with the phrasing.
 
So what would Matthilde's ideal electoral makeup be?
One vote for the head of each cult (excepting Sigmar but including Grungni, Grimnir and Valaya). One vote for each college Patriarch. One vote for the head of the College of Engineers. One vote is hidden in a secret location and whoever brings it to the meeting gets to cast it.
(Plus the usual votes from the elector-counts and the elder of the Moot)
 
It's worth remembering that in 2e canon, it's said that the Electors were suggested to allow the Supreme Patriarch of the Colleges (at the time, Thyrus Gormann) to join the Electors; but this was vehemently opposed by all Electors besides Karl Franz and the Elder of the Moot. The Sigmarites opposed it on principle, the other Electors opposed it because it'd give Reikland even more political power than it currently does - it'd be five votes if you include the Sigmarites and the Prince of Reikland's.

Personally... In an ideal world where the Colleges collectively save the Empire and they obtain the power of Ultimate Headpats, the ideal circumstance would be for the Sigmarites to willingly give up one of their own votes to give to the Colleges. But it'd require some truly epic stuff (probably done with The Protector) to sway the minds of the Cult that most opposes wizards, and to make them weaken themselves politically in the process.
 
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Parabola said:
It's worth remembering that in 2e canon, it's said that the Electors were suggested to allow the Supreme Patriarch of the Colleges (at the time, Thyrus Gormann) to join the Electors; but this was vehemently opposed by all Electors besides Karl Franz and the Elder of the Moot. The Sigmarites opposed it on principle, the other Electors opposed it because it'd give Reikland even more political power than it currently does - it'd be five votes if you include the Sigmarites and the Prince of Reikland's.

Personally... In an ideal world where the Colleges collectively save the Empire and they obtain the power of Ultimate Headpats, the ideal circumstance would be for the Sigmarites to willingly give up one of their own votes to give to the Colleges. But it'd require some truly epic stuff (probably done with The Protector) to sway the minds of the Cult that most opposes wizards, and to weaken themselves politically in the process.
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Simple. Take away Hochland's vote, no one would notice.
 
Glau said:
I feel like you apply and discard the this principle as it suits you? Like, the empire wouldn't actually be doing anything in Marianburg, there's no our side vs their side. All we are doing is turning the city from a playing board to a prize and letting the nature of independent agents take its course. All vs all rather than one vs the rest.

Likewise with the rebalancing of the EC. The new votes need to be able to put together an army, so Marienburg, moot, all the guilds put together, a unified border princes, or a break away bretonian/kislevian province are the options, ignoring any other issues. But at least 2/3 of the empire benefits from putting 2 votes back into play for themselves instead of committed opposition, so the lift seems possible.
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If all the Empire is doing is offering an EC position then it's useless. Anyone who could win the fight to rule Marienburg would then just rule Marienburg and has no incentive to take their nice polity and make it subordinate to a foreign power. The fact that no single family or person does rule Marienburg is evidence that no such entity currently has the power to win that fight anyway.

The ECs would have to balance the possibility of two 'new' votes against the precedent set by the Emperor being allowed to strip votes, and all of the Sigmarite ECs have to balance weakening a bloc they more-or-less align with in the hopes that the new votes would also swing their way. I doubt you could muster the votes.
 
<Eltharin>
Uranai - Elvish term for those High Elf seafarers and merchants that Men call the Sea Elves.
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Apparently this is the term for Sea Elves, which the wiki says is from Tales of Orfeo: Storm Warriors. Bit weird, as the only root word I can find that's similar to it is urithair, which means "destruction, conquest, sacrifice of innocence".
 
Glau said:
The geographical bias of the sigmarites to their heartlands is destabilizing long term, it disadvantages the non-sigmarite majority provinces too much to have the largest voting block be solidly behind not!them. Either Sigmarism takes over the empire (booo hisss!) and the geographic bias is mitigated, or there's another civil war, or something clever happens.

So yeah, long shot schemes to rebalance now, because when the ulricans resolve their differences they'll be looking outward again.

Counterpoint: submitting to authority because they are powerful is about the least ranaldian thing ever.

I feel like you apply and discard the this principle as it suits you? Like, the empire wouldn't actually be doing anything in Marianburg, there's no our side vs their side. All we are doing is turning the city from a playing board to a prize and letting the nature of independent agents take it's course. All vs all rather than one vs the rest.

Likewise with the rebalancing of the EC. The new votes need to be able to put together an army, so Marienburg, moot, all the guilds put together, a unified border princes, or a break away bretonian/kislevian province are the options, ignoring any other issues. But at least 2/3 of the empire benefits from putting 2 votes back into play for themselves instead of committed opposition, so the lift seems possible.
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This is how politics works.

Every major player was trying to assemble the largest voting bloc. The Sigmarites were just the ones who succeeded. They fought for an advantageous position, and they won. If their rivals had prevailed, then the Sigmarites would be brooding and muttering about how unfair it is that the Cult of Ulric has three votes.

But "fair" isn't a word that has any particular meaning here. Magnus the Pious had the literal Mandate of Heaven, and he said the Church of Sigmar gets three votes, so they have three votes. People accepted this during his lifetime because again, Mandate of Heaven, and later it was enshrined as tradition.

You want to overturn that tradition. You want to overturn the decree of Magnus the Pious. You want to make an enemy of the wealthiest and most powerful church in the Empire.

Three people say No from the start. The Sigmarite Elector Counts vote No because they generally benefit from the Church of Sigmar having three votes. If Heidi tries to play some complicated game, then her own (Sigmarite) province rises in rebellion. Don't count on the officers of the state troops to put down the rebellion; they'll be leading it.

Nordland votes No because Middenland supports it and they hate Middenland. The Moot votes No because there is a 0% chance that they will support someone losing their Electoral Vote.

I don't think you have the votes. Even if something extraordinary happens, you don't have the guns. The Sigmarites provinces are the wealthiest and most technologically advanced in the Empire, and they're not going to lie down and surrender. If you want to kick off the Time of the Three Emperors 2.0, go ahead. The Sigmarites have Nuln; they are well equipped with the last argument of kings.

Ranaldians can honor their proud tradition of rising against impossible odds. Sigmarites will honor their proud tradition of slaughtering rebels.

It won't be all vs all, because only a few of the great families would have any hope of becoming Elector Count. The rest of the merchant class- the people who aren't going to get a runefang- will happily join together to tear the traitors limb from limb. They don't want to live under the rule of some hick warlord who thinks that his ancient lineage means that he can use their city as his personal piggy bank.
 
If you've got a better idea for how to avoid the ticking time bomb that is the Sigmarite voting bloc then I'm all ears.

But as it is, your position seems to be 'this is why it is like this and this is why it can't change', which is nice and all, but it ignores the problem my speculation is aimed at entirely.
 
I haven't been following the conversation, but what about adding votes instead of taking them away? Diluting the Sigmarite bloc by virtue of them not being as high a percentage of the vote?
 
Why is anyone creating the problem of Imperial Electors and insisting we solve it? Getting Marienburg back in the Empire was Heidi's longshot, maybe it'll happen idea for getting Ranald officially recognised. It was never a serious proposal and we've got more important shit to do.
 
Glau said:
If you've got a better idea for how to avoid the ticking time bomb that is the Sigmarite voting bloc then I'm all ears.

But as it is, your position seems to be 'this is why it is like this and this is why it can't change', which is nice and all, but it ignores the problem my speculation is aimed at entirely.
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The most common way to deal with this kind of local power imbalance historically is for the Empire to stop being unified. At some point in the future some Sigmarite Emperor will push too hard politically when he does not have the resources militarily to bring the Northern provinces to heel and they break off. Of course that too is civil war... but it is defensive on the part of the weaker side so they might win.
 
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Glau said:
If you've got a better idea for how to avoid the ticking time bomb that is the Sigmarite voting bloc then I'm all ears.

But as it is, your position seems to be 'this is why it is like this and this is why it can't change', which is nice and all, but it ignores the problem my speculation is aimed at entirely.
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Either the Empire collapses due to these internal strains or the Cult of Sigmar assumes a totally dominant religious position and the Cult of Ulric comes to accept playing second fiddle.


Miriam said:
I haven't been following the conversation, but what about adding votes instead of taking them away? Diluting the Sigmarite bloc by virtue of them not being as high a percentage of the vote?
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Easier than taking votes away but still requires either a war or a brilliant politician, and there needs to be some incentive for the ECs of the time.. Either way, it won't happen while Luitpold is Emperor.
 
shepsquared said:
Why is anyone creating the problem of Imperial Electors and insisting we solve it? Getting Marienburg back in the Empire was Heidi's longshot, maybe it'll happen idea for getting Ranald officially recognised. It was never a serious proposal and we've got more important shit to do.
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I thought Ranald was officially recognised? Imperial policy is that Ranald is a real god and worshipping him is not heresy witch hunters back off.
His cult is illegal in many places but that's a local policy issue that I'm not sure the Emperor even has authority over.
 
The Marienburg situation isn't actively unstable right now tbh. The situation was that the Empire would run out of budget if Marienburg enforced an embargo, and we've done our part in meeting the Chamberlain of the Seal, and with the canals, to help with that. And since the canal is operational now, any actual embargo might hurt, but not hurt enough that declaring war would be necessary.

And it definitely has nothing to do with Sigmarites having 3 votes.
 
Miriam said:
I haven't been following the conversation, but what about adding votes instead of taking them away? Diluting the Sigmarite bloc by virtue of them not being as high a percentage of the vote?
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If the non-Sigmarite Electors did that, they'd also be lowering the value of their votes from 1/15th to 1/16th of the total. It's not just the Sigmarites that would suffer in the process.

This is why my "Ultimate Headpats" daydream involves the Sigmarites willingly giving up one of their votes to the Colleges. It's an absurd pie-in-the-sky idea, nothing serious about it, but paradoxically I think it's easier to convince a single faction to give up one of their votes than to convince all the Electors to create a new one. It changes the balance of power but it doesn't add or remove any numbers.
 
Glau said:
If you've got a better idea for how to avoid the ticking time bomb that is the Sigmarite voting bloc then I'm all ears.
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I'm not so sure that it is a ticking time bomb.

For starters, three votes is not even close to a majority. Then we've got the fact that a really bad emperor can be horrendous for the entire Empire having been firmly set as a precedent. And then we've got the fact that there is also the extremely strong precedent set that the worst outcome for the Empire (and everyone in it) is the Empire breaking up due to refusing to respect the process for electing a new Emperor.

Given all of this, the dynamics at play currently are actually not bad:
1) Mandred is almost certainly not a contender on account of being a wizard. But this is fine--he's unquestionably heir to the Reikland province itself, which is a huge deal and a big step forward for Imperial wizards. And since he's the legitimate firstborn son of the Emperor, no one can question that he is entitled to the position rather than it being the result of wizard machinations (it couldn't be more legitimate and straightforward if you tried). But by him not making himself a contender, it calms the traditionalists and probably gels well with the Sigmarites, since he'll be formally oathbound to uphold the laws and ideals of Sigmar's Empire and destroy the unnatural evils that threaten it.

2) One of the big contenders is an Ulrican elector count. That suggests that the idea of "Sigmarite candidates dominate" is not at all universal. Being a proven good leader, loyal to the Empire, and a good ruler earns a lot of support and acceptance, regardless of whether or not you're a Sigmarite.

3) One of the other big contenders is a Sigmarite, but not in the church's pocket by any means. The reasons why she's a strong contender are that she's got an excellent, proven track record for fighting the good fight against one of the Empire's greatest enemies (and winning), ruling well in a difficult province, getting along well enough with every significant faction in the process, and a strong track record of loyalty to the Empire and its ideals. The fact that she has also successfully worked with and herded the Empire's battle wizards against the undead is another plus--she's not going to be cowed the moment a powerful wizard shows up. She's unwed, too, which means that she can potentially marry a major Ulrican figure as a way to make the Ulrican provinces comfortable.

4) All of this is hypothetical, because the current Emperor seems to have a bigger issue with the Elector Count of Wissenland than any Ulrican province. He sees the current rift in the Ulrican cult and steers well clear of it, letting them hash out their differences and respecting their boundaries. In other words, a nominally sigmarite Emperor deliberately avoiding even hinting at any kind of primacy in terms of religion or religioun-based authority over a non-Sigmarite cult.

5) The system doesn't have to choose the best every time. It just has to work well enough that the Empire handles its problems well enough. Sure, you want to avoid having bad emperors (like the previous leader of Kislev literally ignoring all of Kislev's major problems that didn't involve fighting), but it seems like the elector system has been working quite well for a while and will continue to work quite well for generations to come. What the Empire has done remarkably well is come back from its greatest failures/mistakes/disasters rather than being forever diminished from them. A three-way civil war lasting for centuries? A single catastrophic night that was something of a nightmare scenario for the Colleges? A province breaking away with a massive bribe to a terrible Emperor? An empress-consort that was part of a Lahmian conspiracy? The Empire has come back strong from all of that and more.

Give it some more credit, I think.
 
Parabola said:
If the non-Sigmarite Electors did that, they'd also be lowering the value of their votes from 1/15th to 1/16th of the total. It's not just the Sigmarites that would suffer in the process.

This is why my "Ultimate Headpats" daydream involves the Sigmarites willingly giving up one of their votes to the Colleges. It's an absurd pie-in-the-sky idea, nothing serious about it, but paradoxically I think it's easier to convince a single faction to give up one of their votes than to convince all the Electors to create a new one. It changes the balance of power but it doesn't add or remove any numbers.
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Well either that or they have to suffer a tremendous loss of face, like say... it turns out the Grand Theogonist was a Tzeench cultist all along stoking divisions in the empire and they are discovered by a brave shadowmancer who is not afraid to ask questions. :V
 
One more point about the votes, if enough people decide to fuck them over they can take away their power without taking away their votes... just give everyone else from the Cult of Ulric, to the Counts to the Moot two more votes, that way their vote does not get diluted relative to each other in the least only the Sigmarites suffer.
 
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