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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Why we should ask Vlag to help with Kislev's canals :
  1. The canal project isn't just a way to fuck with Marienburg. It's also a way for Imperial fleets to more easily go fight Norscans, and it's a big increase in links between the Empire and Kislev (move armies quicker, more economic links, etc). We wouldn't just be asking Vlag to help us make money - we'd be asking Vlag improve our preparations for the next Great War Against Chaos.
  2. Vlag are really good at stonework, and Vlag have people experienced in digging around rivers (that's where they dug while trapped in the Warp, remember ?). This is actually really important when it comes to building a good canal ! Vlag also has better tech than Kislev does. Sure Boris seems confident that he can build huge canal networks with nothing more than masses of untrained kislevites and whatever spare money the cash-strapped government can scrounge up. But it's guaranteed that the final product would be a lot better with Dawi help. I'd expect it to be wider, safer, more long-lasting, more resilient. And the worker death toll would certainly be a lot lower...
  3. Vlag is currently recovering from a crisis. They're rebuilding their wealth and influence. This request wouldn't actually decrease their population, it would significantly help with their PR, it would help them make contacts in Kislev (and more), etc. All that at the cost of slowing their wealth growth. But getting wealthier isn't the most important thing for them right now !
 
I suspect that there might be a compromise between the Rhunkits and runesmith guild in the end. Mainly that the Rhunkits stop teaching nearly as many and that once their numbers drop a bit the guild apprentices the rest.

Of course that sort of solution would take a century or two to work out.
 
Boris has plenty of ability to purchase Vlag's assistance, tbh. We don't need to spend our influence helping the canal in that way - as boney pointed out, that's what tasking a king with it is for.
 
Parabola said:
The preservation of the library is indeed a very minor concern overall, but preserving it with runes isn't some entirely idle speculation, it's something we had as a legit turn vote option at one point for our penthouse, back when it was still a personal library.
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Hey, I saw that post literally five minutes before I saw yours! Two black cats, lol.
Boney said:
Added: [ ] PENTHOUSE: Add preservation Runes to your library: -4 Dwarf Favour, can be paid for with book budget DF for next two purchase periods.
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I might be in the minority, and I do like the library, but I'd like to see one of these major boons spent on something a bit more... energetic than an endless quest for books which we quite frankly don't actually interact with terribly often. The choice to pursue golden hounds via a boon has yielded a really outsized amount of entertaining story content, and seems like a very promising vein to mine for more cool magic; there be golem alternatives at the bottom of that shaft, me thinks.

And I do think that for much of this waystone project, that airship would have been very useful.
 
Things Vlag has:
  • The best stonemasons in the world
  • Thousands of Rhunkit aka sub-apprentice level runesmiths
  • Crippling Paranoia and Agoraphobia
  • Sexual liberation
  • Vaults full of pre-Great War Kislevian goods
  • A militarised society that specialise in both siege warfare and demon slaying
  • Lizards
  • An intense belief that Mathilde is the greatest ever and that they owe their souls to her
  • Rangers so odd, that even other rangers think they're odd.
Things Vlag doesn't have:
  • Money
  • Beer
  • Metalwork, and possibly engineering too
  • Basic runesmithing skills
  • Restraint
  • Fear
  • A Monarchy
Whatever we spend the boon on has to work within these limitations.


Which is why I propose that we commission a 50 foot statue of Mathilde.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
Things Vlag has:
  • The best stonemasons in the world
  • Thousands of Rhunkit aka sub-apprentice level runesmiths
  • Crippling Paranoia and Agoraphobia
  • Sexual liberation
  • Vaults full of pre-Great War Kislevian goods
  • A militarised society that specialise in both siege warfare and demon slaying
  • Lizards
  • An intense belief that Mathilde is the greatest ever and that they owe their souls to her
  • Rangers so odd, that even other rangers think they're odd.
Things Vlag doesn't have:
  • Money
  • Beer
  • Metalwork, and possibly engineering too
  • Basic runesmithing skills
  • Restraint
  • Fear
  • A Monarchy
Whatever we spend the boon on has to work within these limitations.


Which is why I propose that we commission a 50 foot statue of Mathilde.
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now hear me out what if we make a canal, to fit a massive boat with a 50 foot statue of Mathilde that can go show the statue glory from vlag to nuln and beyond? /s
 
Parabola said:
They were an Old Hold, so it's not out of the question that they might still have some vaults full of jewels or gold and things that were kinda useless while they were stuck in Literally Hell.

...Come to think of it, given what Boney's said, Vlag also possibly has rock music.
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On a personal scale, yes, on a budgetary scale, not really.
Boney said:
Karak Vlag was the poorest of the Old Holds even before they spent two centuries besieged in hell. If Mathilde shook them down for money it would result in substantial wealth by the standards of an individual, but that is money that they would probably have spent on things like food and defences.
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Again use the EIC to make wealth to pay both parties. That or wait to see how much gold we get from the Ilthimar actions and budget with part of that.
 
Parabola said:
...Now, clearly rune-preserving the library isn't worth a Transcendent Boon, but I wonder if it'd be possible to phrase the Transcendent Boon for Vlag in such a way that they'd both give us their books and help preserve the library - something along the lines of sharing their knowledge and expertise for the library's benefit?
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We can use this not to simultaneously obtain the required number of runes, but in order to obtain a long-term agreement with Karak Vlag that they will satisfy our needs for runes for the library as long as there is a need for it. The agreement that requires long-term rune production on the part of the dwarves, without a limited duration, is something truly colossal.
 
Finally finished reading update

ngl I'm kinda surprised people decided to go Karak-to-Karak considering Belebro is already stressed with Thorgrim, and we don't know what's going on with them right now after that meeting. I guess people decided risk is worth it to gain information that's straight from the High King's mouth, and maybe have a chance to perhaps mend the relation between Karaz-a-Karak and K8P?
 
EternalObserver said:
ngl I'm kinda surprised people decided to go Karak-to-Karak considering Belebro is already stressed with Thorgrim, and we don't know what's going on with them right now after that meeting. I guess people decided risk is worth it to gain information that's straight from the High King's mouth, and maybe have a chance to perhaps mend the relation between Karaz-a-Karak and K8P?
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I can give a universal reason that justifies this approach - the result will be fun. :V Regardless of the relationship between them, everything will end either very well or very badly. So either we will get interesting secrets, or we will face a dwarven civil war. Either way, I'll grab some popcorn and watch things like this with interest. :V
 
DragonParadox said:
It is an Old Hold, they have plenty of money, it is all vintage but it's there. By human standards their vaults are deep beyond the dreams of avarice, even if by the standards of their fellow Old Holds they are a bit strapped for cash.
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Reimagined literally just quoted Boney directly saying this is not true. Like...they have money in the most technical sense, sure, but they're using it to buy basic essentials. They do not have disposable income not being used for absolute essentials in any great quantity by the standards of cities.
 
I mean, Vlag could neither make nor spend money for over a century, so know Dwarves they probably kept it all locked up and have exactly as much in gold and other valuables that can't be used for practical purposes as they had before the Great War against Chaos?

If something had practical value, it was likely repurposed for weapons and tools, but every other coin, tradegood or artpiece will have gathered dust.
 
Artemis1992 said:
I mean, Vlag could neither make nor spend money for over a century, so know Dwarves they probably kept it all locked up and have exactly as much in gold and other valuables that can't be used for practical purposes as they had before the Great War against Chaos?

If something had practical value, it was likely repurposed for weapons and tools, but every other coin, tradegood or artpiece will have gathered dust.
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Unless Chaos got to those Vaults. Could be some vaults were lost which is why they are even more strapped.
 
EternalObserver said:
Finally finished reading update

ngl I'm kinda surprised people decided to go Karak-to-Karak considering Belebro is already stressed with Thorgrim, and we don't know what's going on with them right now after that meeting. I guess people decided risk is worth it to gain information that's straight from the High King's mouth, and maybe have a chance to perhaps mend the relation between Karaz-a-Karak and K8P?
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It's kind of a high risk high reward approach. Belegar has spent what, nearly a decade preparing for this confrontation. The whole "Loremaster-at-Large" job he offered was basically asking us to wander around making allies so it would be easier for him to confront the High King over the waystone issue, and even without us he's been working on that in the background.

So he's honestly in a pretty good position to be asking this question. As the King of a Karak, he deserves to know where the magic is going, and he's a dwarf so he can learn dwarfy secrets. He also has personally witnessed the activation of the Eyes of Grimnir, so the High King can't exactly hide that from him.

Thorgrim also needs the support of the Old Holds for his Silver Road Wars, and can't afford to anger any of his subjects.

The only downside is, uh, the possibility of a dwarf civil war. Belegar and Thorgrim do not like each other, and Belegar is not willing to take "no" for an answer from Thorgrim. Relations between KaK and K8P are pretty strained as they are.

So if Thorgrim doubles down on his stubbornness—something he's kind of famous for—then, uh, bad things may happen.
 
There's the issue of comparative costs too. Vlag can get dwarf-tier mining equipment a lot more cheaply than Kislev can, because Kislev needs to import it while Vlag just needs to make it.

By "mining equipment" I'm not just talking about personal-scale tools. IIRC we once got a description of how dawi actually dig, and it's "dawi on scaffolds hitting the stone with picks - while everything else is as mechanised as possible". So they'll move the ore with equipment, handle air with equipment, handle tunnel safety/landslides with equipment, handle pumping with equipment... This is all stuff that could really help Kislev dig a bunch of giant canals without killing a few thousand kislevite peasants in the process.
Historically, building canals was often quite deadly. And slow in places with a Russian climate.
 
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I'm not aware of any antipathy towards Belegar from Thorgrim.
Belegar got angry over Thorgrim not believing he could actually hold the area he had taken (reasonable).
And then got pissed over a poorly worded letter (somewhat less reasonable).
Got even angrier after Okri because he felt he had been cheated.
Then the "Eyes of Grimnir" of whatever they were called happened, and i have no idea how things are going now.
Belegar probably is still somewhat upset, and suspicious as hell.
Hopefully/Probably not at the "will start a civil war" over High King keeping secrets stage.
 
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