I mean last time it took years to get from Kull taking up the mantle to the battle of Kislev City.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
-
- Tags
- warhammer warhammer fantasy fantasy be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist pansexual protagonist ck2 quest divided loyalties mountain vietnam ranald is real this is a dwarf quest (dwarfs) this is maybe an elf quest this is not a vampire quest this is not an empire quest try it and find out open voting
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
I mean last time it took years to get from Kull taking up the mantle to the battle of Kislev City.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
Sure, but in terms of actionable 'we need to move', that basically started when he attacked Pragg? So that was a year or 2, max.
I really don't think 'mobilizing in defense of Cathay' is particularly viable as a strategy.
We could make it to Cathay in half a year easily, it would be dangerous sure, but not something that would pass us by without the possibility to act. Plus I have a feeling the Aethyr is going to shake and the gods are going to start screaming warnings the moment Belakor anoints the next one, that is not something that can be hidden so we would have even longer than that to prepare and get allies.
If we really want to rebuild Kislev, then Bokha Palace is literally in ruins—we infiltrated through a hole in the wall.
Having Vlag stonemasons rebuild the palace would be a clear symbol of Kislev recovering from the last few centuries—especially if paired with Praag waystones—and it will let Boris redirect resources elsewhere.
Having Vlag stonemasons rebuild the palace would be a clear symbol of Kislev recovering from the last few centuries—especially if paired with Praag waystones—and it will let Boris redirect resources elsewhere.
- Location
- Chicago
- Pronouns
- She/They
Absolutely. Vlag is fortified enough to literally survive a siege from within the warp, but Kislev still has broken walls from 200 years ago. Get them repaired and get some runes on them and it'll make the difference between falling in a day and falling in a month.
I think if we are looking to do grand strategy here, then we have to say that neither Praag or Vlag are suitable for Kislev to mass at and fight from. Praag has too much corruption still to hold, and Vlag won't allow armies of humans to shelter behind their gates. Which means we probably want to make sure each has a force that can sortie, but otherwise try and get the everchosen to ignore them- pull his armies deeper and fight him where he has a threat to his rear if we can.
Especially if we can do something like install enough waystones in Praag to drain the forces camped around it, but turn them on after the everchosen is forward of them.
If there is an Everchosen marching to Cathay there's going to be problems everywhere. Runelords, Archmages, Lord Magisters will be needed in the Old World to put down incursions or oversee the waystone network.
It's also a hell of a long trip. Mathilde might be able to get five, maybe ten people to join her. I don't think that's likely because most of the people are going to be too busy to spend the months it takes to travel to Cathay. Even if the Chaos Dwarfs don't destroy the convoy, what purpose would it serve? I can't remember the quote off the top of my head, but I think I remember Cathay repulsing an incursion even more serious than any of the Everchosen the west had faced. That incursion wasn't even lead by an everchosen. And how much can a dozen people really do?
Cathay is a peer to the entirety of the Old World. It is not a peer to the Empire or Bretonnia, it is a peer to the Old World. It would have even dragon-blooded in spades, at least compared to how many people Mathilde could convince to travel over there.
Mathilde heading over to Cathay isn't that far fetched, it worked for Dragomas. But it's not going to be significant in the grand scheme of things.
It'd be like spending Belegar's boon on protecting Death Pass. Of course he would do it. It'll just ensure that other efforts will be neglected.
It's also a hell of a long trip. Mathilde might be able to get five, maybe ten people to join her. I don't think that's likely because most of the people are going to be too busy to spend the months it takes to travel to Cathay. Even if the Chaos Dwarfs don't destroy the convoy, what purpose would it serve? I can't remember the quote off the top of my head, but I think I remember Cathay repulsing an incursion even more serious than any of the Everchosen the west had faced. That incursion wasn't even lead by an everchosen. And how much can a dozen people really do?
Cathay is a peer to the entirety of the Old World. It is not a peer to the Empire or Bretonnia, it is a peer to the Old World. It would have even dragon-blooded in spades, at least compared to how many people Mathilde could convince to travel over there.
Mathilde heading over to Cathay isn't that far fetched, it worked for Dragomas. But it's not going to be significant in the grand scheme of things.
Why? Karak Vlag and Kislev both know what it is like to be on the receiving end of Chaos Incursions, more than just about anyone else in the world. I think it is safe to assume they will try to fortify the approach that the Thirteenth will take as much as possible even without a transcendent boon.
It'd be like spending Belegar's boon on protecting Death Pass. Of course he would do it. It'll just ensure that other efforts will be neglected.
Mathilde killed Boris's father not even a year ago, exploiting the poor defenses on the Palace. This would just feel extremely weird. What would we do with Boris's boon if we do this?
Last edited:
- Location
- Aotearoa
That quote didn't suggest a Transcendent Boom would be required, though.
I know it's a typo, but I'm now wondering what we would need to use a Transcendent Boom on. Where do we need a sufficiently large explosion?
Something that can reduce the number of divine persons?
- Location
- Toronto, Ontario(occasionally)
Reminds me of that Japanese superstition that any item that a family uses and cares for for a century will become an animate spirit.
Parabola
Divided Loyalties Librarian
- Location
- The Destination of Fate
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Vlad would definitely protect and fortify High Pass, but they don't have any capacity to cover the northern approach, or the numbers to do so anyway. Kislev doesn't have any naturally defensible landmarks, it has extremely broad and empty and frozen land full of spirits in all directions. The only way it could be less suited to dwarves is if it was a goddamn island. Due to this and other factors, there's reasons why people emphasize that Kislev is mostly towns and villages, and has exactly three cities that are all still pummeled from the Great War.
Would Boris naturally reach out to Vlag to try to achieve some form of mutual aid? Probably, he's a smart cookie. But there's a difference between that and it being guaranteed due to our Boon. We have the opportunity to improve things very meaningfully by just asking them.
And the reason I put so much emphasis on 'we should at least consider doing this' is because the sooner Vlag starts, the more time they'd have to work their stuff and then go back to doing their own things.
I'm not sure what this is trying to say. We asked Boris for a canal. Bohka Palace doesn't need to remain damaged for us to get the benefits of that, and now that it's someone who is actually doing stuff for Kislev, we don't want to see another dead Tzar.
- Location
- California, USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
That was just the first boneypost I found saying it's possible, every vague plan I've seen has us using the boon. I suppose we might be able to use the medium boon from the runesmiths guild but I haven't seen any conversation about that, and I feel feel like it would have a lesser effect.
And honestly, how else are we going to do it? "Hey Karak Vlag while I'm asking you for your ultra rare magical texts that were entrusted to you by dead people... can you send a third of your population to do this thing that doesn't help your people or their chances against chaos? No I'm not using that favor you owe me I'm saving that for when I want something from you."
So why then are you taking them so far out of their comfort zone? Where will the dwarf-power come from? Which projects will be sacrificed for this? Karak Vlag will already be putting enormous amounts of resources into defending themselves. Even if you ask soon, arranging for the fortification of an entire nation is not an easy task. Especially because at the same time you will basically have to rebuild the entire nation from scratch: while essentially rebuilding yourself from scratch too.
Let's not forget Thorek's assessment of their capabilities. They are at least two generations away from exporting stone. In dwarf terms, that would be somewhere between sixty and one hundred and forty years. Karak Vlag is good at stone work, but for all intents and purposes that is all they are good at. That and runes. How many metal tools do they have?
Don't you think it is a weird look for Mathilde to kill Boris's father, then get the dwarfs of Karak Vlag, people who owe just about everything to her, to get the repairs done to the Palace? I highly suspect Boris would rather keep the reconstruction of his home in-house.
Parabola
Divided Loyalties Librarian
- Location
- The Destination of Fate
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Let's be fair here: A good number of the magical books Karak Vlag has probably are on the Aethyr itself, Daemons, Chaos Sorcery, and Slaanesh. Though they would still be sensitive, they might have written by still-living individuals that we could meet and talk.
Again, we could just add in a "to the extent that it is sustainable/does not interfere with other projects" clause in there. This doesn't have to be an all-or-nothing deal.
You're reading the Thorek thing wrong: they are exporting stone (that's literally what he's saying), what they'd have trouble with is mining for metals and smelting and smithing. So they could just provide any stone Kislev needs for its own fortifications. They just wouldn't provide weapons or armor because they'd be woefully substandard.
And obviously we wouldn't specifically tell them to take a look at Bokha Palace for them to repair, this would be a possible consequence of either Boris pointing out the damage all three cities have or us generally telling them that the cities are probably the biggest targets to any hypothetical Chaos armies. I really don't think Boris will turn aside any help offered to Kislev at this stage. He literally asked us to kill his own father to get started quicker on rebuilding, what makes you think he'd shy away from getting dwarven expertise?
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
I don't think it makes any sense to divert resources from one front line against Chaos to another front line. Vlag isn't going to run out of things to do to prepare itself for the Everchosen.
If you were talking about getting aid from a hold further south I could at least see the argument.
If you were talking about getting aid from a hold further south I could at least see the argument.
The books being discussed are from the Fire Spire and entrusted to Vlag's vaults, not Vlag's own writings. I'd be surprised if they did much writing while trapped in hell.
Last edited:
- Pronouns
- He/Him
That reminds me, something I kind of want to do is design a magic item that that provides a payload for our own casting of burning shadows, singing king killer / eye of gazul style. Boney's said before that we could in theory get an item that provides another wind's component of a windherded spell, and we already know that a good enough payload throws the issues of using shields as cover out the window so it seems like it would be a pretty sweet sidegrade to the flask that lets us keep casting afterwards.
A transcendent boon called upon by the woman whom every dwarf of Karak Vlag knows in their heart risked damnation and worse for all of their lives for completely selfless desires is not something they will be completely rational about. They are not going to drop everything for this, but the okral were still a significant deployment for Karaz-a-Karak. Even still, why use the transcendent boon? Especially when this request boils down to asking them to prepare for the Thirteenth Everchosen.
Ah, I am. Apologies.
Ignoring that this is extremely ghoulish, why do we need Boris to be even further in Mathilde's debt. And frankly how good would that expertise be? They have spent two centuries in the warp. There are not a lot of reasons to preserve architectural experience for above-ground structures when you are fighting an existential war against daemons in a mountain. A good of that experience can carry over, but not entirely. Boris would be far better off going to Karak Kadrin if he really wanted Dwarf expertise. That would have the significant benefit of the project not serving as a refresher of what the sky looks like for the architects involved. That part would actually apply to any of the other Kislev projects too.
OK so I'm not actually for spending the boon, but I think I can explain why someone might want to. I think we can all agree that dwarfs and humans have different skillets. OK, if we take that a step further it seems from the example of the long friendship of the Empire and the Karaz Ankor that when they work together they can do more than each of them can individually. But Vlag does not have that connection to Kislev which is a relative newcomer so while both polities will certainly be fighting the Everchosen they will not do so in a manner than it as coordinated as the Southern Holds and the Empire since dwarfs are not the most trusting lot. The boon bridges that, it gets dwarf craftsmen and dwarf warriors in places where they can bolster and enhance Kislevite manpower.
All that said I am not voting for this since sadly Vlag does not have that many skills, I think the boost to overall readiness would not be that high
Parabola
Divided Loyalties Librarian
- Location
- The Destination of Fate
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Some resources can have more of an effect in other places than the ones they currently are in, is my reasoning.
The thing here is that in my mind I don't think it's all that guaranteed that there's Fire Spire books in Vlag. Very possible, sure, but I think it'd be a roll of the dice. We can't know up until we ask what books they actually have.
And I think that if dwarves are stubborn enough to continue living life and loving one another while being besieged in Literally Hell, then they might have been stubborn enough to continue writing books on the nature of their imprisonment and where they are and the enemies they faced. I think it's at least a possibility.
I don't suggest it because I want Boris in our debt (yeah we could probably ask a lot but we could also just ask for a symbolic title to add to our collection or something), but because if we want to do it (and, admittedly, we might not, there's a lot of pushback) then it should really be done sooner rather than later.
I will, however, grant you that their above-ground architectural prowess and siege experience is probably completely nonexistent. That's a very valid point.
Last edited:
- Location
- Finland
Things i would want from the Vlag Boon.
1. Minimal use of resources that could be used for hold defenses.
Anything that does not go against that, i am willing to entertain as an option.
And those resources include just having dwarves go out and spend time doing something when they could be preparing their hold to defend itself.
1. Minimal use of resources that could be used for hold defenses.
Anything that does not go against that, i am willing to entertain as an option.
And those resources include just having dwarves go out and spend time doing something when they could be preparing their hold to defend itself.
- Location
- Aotearoa
Well, when you put it like that… why would we want to pull a third of their population away to do this thing that doesn't help their people or their chances against Chaos? Especially at this time, in their position, when we've been told an Everchosen is coming.
Last edited:
- Location
- California, USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
It would be cool!
- Location
- California, USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I'm really not interested in arguing about this thing when it's not up for vote or relevant to anything but chickens and coops. We can argue plenty about morality and pragmatism or whatever when I'm on the campaign trail. (A vote for our library is a vote for-)
It's a possibility I hadn't though of that I'm excited about, but like... with what paper? I can't imagine they had a ton on hand when they got kidnapped. And who's gonna be the experts writing about their seige in the middle of their siege? Will that add up to the multiple bookshelves a plus whatever would require? I hope it does.
Last edited: