Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[SaltyWaffles]

This doesn't say there was ironclad proof. Or any proof. Just that the Empresses' name was on the list we gave them and this was blamed as the reason for why the Lahmians were so influential. It doesn't mean it was actually the reason.

Hell, for all we know Ranald used the power we got from Mork to frame the Empress(or exaggerate her culpability/involvement) as part of manoeuvring Heidi onto the throne.

He probably didn't, but it's not as if there are many checks and balances in operation here - particularly in the context where there are actors who we know can use absolute effects like the Father, Deceiver or the Protector sides of the Coin to influence events.

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The list itself wasn't the proof; it was the end result of investigations and proof-gathering.

 

[deathofrats0808]

Except that it's not propaganda, it's literally what we see from the inside, from someone of high rank in the Colleges who works with a lot of people from lots of Colleges, including those of high rank.

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What, that the Colleges are paragons of virtue? Hardly. Mathilde consistently enriches herself, including by stealing from ECs, her colleagues either do the same, or flee any responsibility to the Empire they supposedly serve, or use nepotism to staff an important institute, or chose organisations that they value over the Colleges etc etc. The Colleges are alright, but they're far from being perfect. Boney has in fact repeatedly stated that they work with what they have, which is mostly 'good enough'.

 

[Mopman43]

Hell, for all we know Ranald used the power we got from Mork to frame the Empress (or exaggerate her culpability/involvement) as part of manoeuvring Heidi onto the throne.

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The timeline doesn't work out- Ranald didn't win the gamble against Mork until I think a year after the Empress had been killed?

 

[Jakobstj]

We don't even know anything about what internal struggles might be happening within most of the colleges, while the two non-Grey we do have info on are Jade (extreme divide on religious beliefs/traditions, with at least one Lady Magister, Pan's mom, explicitly believing half their wizards shouldn't have been taught) and Light (currently has two people claiming leadership)

 

[Alratan]

The list itself wasn't the proof; it was the end result of investigations and proof-gathering.

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I can't see in the update much discussion about proof gathering or in-depth investigation.

I think it's likely that Regimand had to make a very difficult judgement call on the basis of inevitably inadequate information and made the decision that the risk of leaving a potentially compromised Empress in position to influence her husband and soon to be born heir was worse than the consequences of assassinating her.

Arguably, that's his (unofficial) job as the Grey Magister on the ground.

 

[dptullos]

Except that it's not propaganda, it's literally what we see from the inside, from someone of high rank in the Colleges who works with a lot of people from lots of Colleges, including those of high rank.

You also contradict yourself: Grey Magisters who horribly abuse their power get murdered by the Grey Order. While the truth of the matter might stay classified, the fact of the matter is that the Grey Order considers the discovery, tracking, and elimination of Black Magisters to be one of its most important duties.

The Grey Order also goes to significant lengths to keep track of its wizards and keep tabs on their general activities. Murders leave a trail, and when those murders line up with specific wizards' presence, investigations ensue. We see this kind of oversight with the dark rituals--they keep close track of who knows what, and when, and if anything like the dark rituals that are shared are employed in the future, they will need to know where the people that were taught those rituals were at the time.

And you're also really twisting events to look at things in the most negative way possible. Regimand murdered a proven traitor and vampiric conspiracist after the Witch Hunters had gathered ironclad proof of her guilt. The only reason the Colleges performed the deed was because the head religious and legal authorities asked the Grey Order to do it instead. Similarly, with the late-Tzar, Mathilde was asked to by the Prince specifically because the world was at stake and because he would launch a civil war or coup if she didn't do it, and she'd seen first-hand how badly the late-Tzar's rule was impacting Kislev from a variety of perspectives (and first-hand).

She didn't kill him because he wasn't good at his job. She killed him because he was in a position of enormous responsibility and he was very stubbornly, negligently, and complacently refusing to do his job, and all of the alternatives were far worse for everyone--if she didn't do it, far more people would die for a fact. Even then, the act is something that they Grey Order would not and cannot sanction. Mathilde will take that secret to her grave and should it ever come out, she will fully be expected to take all the blame and die for it. The Grey Order does not willfully turn a blind eye to this sort of thing, so only those who really prove their character are taught the spells necessary to be that kind of potentially exceptional assassin.

The motto of the Grey Order is very much "do the right thing, or at least the least bad thing when necessary". "Don't get caught" is not their motto, because as Mathilde's master taught her, for Grey Wizards doing what they do best, there very well may come a time when slitting throats of the enemies of the Empire results in you having to sell your life at the highest cost possible to the enemy. Sometimes getting caught happens, and so every throat you slit is a cost-benefit calculation. Are you selling your life at a high enough price?

Mathilde has assassinated a shitload of greenskins, skaven, Chaos cultists, and necromancers. She has assassinated one noble and one member of royalty, the first of whom was thoroughly proven to be guilty of capital crimes against the Empire (and the second of whom I already went into above). Assassination is reserved for capital crimes; otherwise, you get stuff like "sneak into their home and get evidence of potential crimes, and we'll see how serious it is" or "infiltrate this group and see if they're up to no good". Since this is Warhammer Fantasy, there are a lot more kinds of capital crimes than there could be IRL.

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Do you remember the Night of a Thousand Arcane Duels? That time when all the wizards decided to have a battle royale in the middle of Altdorf?

Where were all of those noble, honorable College leaders then? I also notice that you didn't mention Alric. Truly a paragon of wizardly virtue! A man I absolutely trust to distinguish between what is good for him and what is good for the Empire.

Grey Magisters who horribly abuse their power get murdered by the Grey Order when they get caught. Or, to put it another way, Grey Magisters who embarrass the Grey Order publicly can expect to die. Institutionally, the Grey Order places great emphasis on the appearance of being incorruptible. The lesson here is simple: Don't get caught.

The Grey Order goes to significant lengths to keep track of its wizards? Wizards who are trained in disguise and deception? Wizards who are, by virtue of their education, exceptionally good at not being tracked?

Establishing a fake cover story is, like, baby apprentice stuff. An advanced journeyman could probably drop plenty of corpses without any sign that they were within a hundred miles of the dead bodies, and that's not getting into what a full magister could do. The problem with training your people to be really sneaky and good at not getting caught is that you're training your people to be really sneaky and good at not getting caught.

I'm pretty sure that the Emperor is the primary legal authority the Colleges answer to. It says so right in the Articles of Imperial Magic. I wonder how he'd feel about them deciding to kill his wife without telling him? I guess we'll never know, because they didn't tell him. Why bother to say the Emperor is the boss at all, when the Grey Order will just do whatever they want and say that their actions are in keeping with "the ideals and laws of Sigmar's Holy Empire"?

The Tsar wasn't good at his job. You can say that he was stubbornly refusing to do his job, but I would disagree. Vladimir was trying very hard to do his job. He was a good general, a fierce warrior, and a very devoted man. It's just that none of those qualities made him a good head of state. He didn't want to fail as a Tsar, he just sincerely disagreed with his son.

The Grey Order doesn't seem to "sanction" anything. But Mathilde was raised in the College, and she feels no moral expectation to refrain from killing an allied head of state. Just as there was no moral expectation for Regimand to refrain from murdering his boss's wife. Grey Magisters feel that they have the right to serve as judge, jury, and executioner, regardless of rank. The only rule is that if you get caught, you're on the hook.

The list itself wasn't the proof; it was the end result of investigations and proof-gathering.

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Totally no way that the Lahmians, who specialize in infiltration and deception, could have planted evidence against the Empress. Absolutely not.

Remember, the Emperor is legally our boss. Second Article of Imperial Magic! The Grey Order doesn't care, though, so Regimand decided to murder his wife without telling him.

I feel that this was a fairly dubious decision, because if the Emperor found out he could absolutely go after the Grey Order. However, the basic rule of the Grey Order is "don't get caught", and Regimand didn't get caught, so he's golden. Articles of Imperial Magic? Eh, Magnus intended for us to interpret what the "ideals and laws of Sigmar's Holy Empire" are. Who needs to consult with Sigmar's Holy Emperor before you assassinate his wife?

Edit:

I can't see in the update much discussion about proof gathering or in-depth investigation.

I think it's likely that Regimand had to make a very difficult judgement call on the basis of inevitably inadequate information and made the decision that the risk of leaving a potentially compromised Empress in position to influence her husband and soon to be born heir was worse than the consequences of assassinating her.

Arguably, that's his (unofficial) job as the Grey Magister on the ground.

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I feel that there are sound arguments against having an Empress who is likely to be compromised by Lahmians.

I also feel that the Emperor and the Elector Counts would absolutely say that it isn't his job to make that call. If the Grey College stood up and openly said "The Articles of Imperial Magic allow us to murder the Empress without trial", they would get stabbed. The wizard secret police is completely off the leash, with zero accountability to our legal boss, but we got away with it.

This time.

 

[Alratan]

The timeline doesn't work out- Ranald didn't win the gamble against Mork until I think a year after the Empress had been killed?

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While that's a good point, it's not a 100% guarantee when talking about the activities of entities that live outside of time. Wasn't that one letter that warned Mathilde not to look to deeply into Ranald's nature sent well before she began the experiment?

I will admit though that when I was looking back I'd forgotten when it happened, as I'd looked at when Regimand told us what happened rather than when it actually did.

 

[DragonParadox]

I feel that there are sound arguments against having an Empress who is likely to be compromised by Lahmians.

I also feel that the Emperor and the Elector Counts would absolutely say that it isn't his job to make that call. If the Grey College stood up and openly said "The Articles of Imperial Magic allow us to murder the Empress without trial", they would get stabbed. The wizard secret police is completely off the leash, with zero accountability to our legal boss, but we got away with it.

This time.

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More than that, if Ragimand had not gotten away he would have been called a rogue agent and used as a scapegoat. The Grey College certainly would not have imposed some kind of centralization that would make it less likely to repeat, that would be against their modus operandi, it would make them more vulnerable to Chaos or Necromancy. So even if Regimand was wrong and the Empress innocent her death would have been accepted in principle even as it would have been punished in practice if he got caught. And if Grey College values the independence of its magisters more than the life of a potentially innocent empress... well let us not even speak of how many innocent peasants they are willing to see dead for the 'values and ideals of the Empire'

 

[dptullos]

More than that, if Ragimand had not gotten away he would have been called a rogue agent and used as a scapegoat. The Grey College certainly would not have imposed some kind of centralization that would make it less likely to repeat, that would be against their modus operandi, it would make them more vulnerable to Chaos or Necromancy. So even if Regimand was wrong and the Empress innocent her death would have been accepted in principle even as it would have been punished in practice if he got caught. And if Grey College values the independence of its magisters more than the life of a potentially innocent empress... well let us not even speak of how many innocent peasants they are willing to see dead for the 'values and ideals of the Empire'

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I feel like this can backfire hard.

If the Emperor isn't inclined to accept a single scapegoat, then there are a lot of things he can do in a fight with one College. Especially if the rest of the Elector Counts back him, which they absolutely would. None of them like the precedent of having their wives murdered by wizards.

Once you've established the cultural expectation that Grey Wizards kill whoever they want- and we've killed two members of royalty that we know about- it's only a matter of time before you get caught. And royalty is not generally fond of being assassinated by their own secret police.

I feel that there's some serious institutional arrogance going on here, where the Grey College basically assumes that they won't get caught, and if they do get caught then they'll just throw the individual to the wolves. Should these assumptions be wrong, then the Grey College is in for interesting times.

 

[Alratan]

More than that, if Ragimand had not gotten away he would have been called a rogue agent and used as a scapegoat. The Grey College certainly would not have imposed some kind of centralization that would make it less likely to repeat, that would be against their modus operandi, it would make them more vulnerable to Chaos or Necromancy. So even if Regimand was wrong and the Empress innocent her death would have been accepted in principle even as it would have been punished in practice if he got caught. And if Grey College values the independence of its magisters more than the life of a potentially innocent empress... well let us not even speak of how many innocent peasants they are willing to see dead for the 'values and ideals of the Empire'

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I think it's more a question of culture. Grey Wizards are (implicitly?) taught that they're empowered to do anything they decide is necessary in service to the Empire's higher ideals from that culture, and they also get the understanding of what that means, in what circumstances it applies, and what level of confidence they can legitimately use that power from the Colllege.

While the College is unlikely to disclaim the power they've assumed, they may well modify their execution of it, its contours and boundaries.

It's less that they'd centralise to prevent it and more that they'd teach future Grey Wizards to be more cautious in how they execute it if, for example, Regimand had been caught, declared a Black Magister and suffered the same fate as Screaming Lord Reinhardt, for example.

 

[Parabola]

The Grey College is an organization of paranoid, secretive schemers who take pride in doing whatever the hell they want. Both Regimand and Mathilde have murdered royalty without the benefit of trial. In Mathilde's case, Vladimir wasn't involved with any vampire or Chaos conspiracies. She just didn't think he was good at his job, so she killed him.

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While I generally agree with the notion that everyone makes themselves look as best as they can and tries to downplay their bad side, this is a gross misrepresentation of things.

I also agree that Vladimir was perhaps Mathilde's least deserving kill as of yet, but his sin wasn't 'not good at his job', it was 'not doing his job (managing his nation, which was not just in a bad state but also in the direct line of fire against Chaos, and also we have strong reason to believe an Everchosen is coming sometime soon-ish) at all'. That, on top of the aforementioned point that Boris was otherwise going to outright do a civil war out of desperation.

You could certainly say that murdering a friendly head of state with magic is not a responsible use of magic. However, the Grey College's motto is not "Do the right thing". Their motto is "Don't get caught". For all we know, there are any number of Grey Magisters who horribly abuse their power, but they're either good at covering it up, or the College finds out, murders them, and then covers it up.

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The issue here is that "getting caught" for a member of the Grey College means that you're not being competent enough in your job description. Of course the Grey College is going to hope that their members don't get caught doing things, because that's like the Jade College expecting their members to be good at herbalism or farming or whatever.

It's part of the reason why the Grey College has to be (and has the reputation of being) so tough on its own members, and part of the reason why it has the Vow of Poverty: they need to filter out people who seem more interested in personal enrichment than in aiding the Empire.

And precisely because of the temptations that Ulgu presents to its wielders, and because Greys are known to be well-suited to doing morally grey things or make hard decisions or pick lesser evils every so often, 'do the right thing' is in itself a pretty nebulous thing. You're not gonna get the College of people who have deceit and paranoia in their soul to agree on what is right.

 

[DragonParadox]

I feel like this can backfire hard.

If the Emperor isn't inclined to accept a single scapegoat, then there are a lot of things he can do in a fight with one College. Especially if the rest of the Elector Counts back him, which they absolutely would. None of them like the precedent of having their wives murdered by wizards.

Once you've established the cultural expectation that Grey Wizards kill whoever they want- and we've killed two members of royalty that we know about- it's only a matter of time before you get caught. And royalty is not generally fond of being assassinated by their own secret police.

I feel that there's some serious institutional arrogance going on here, where the Grey College basically assumes that they won't get caught, and if they do get caught then they'll just throw the individual to the wolves. Should these assumptions be wrong, then the Grey College is in for interesting times.

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Well yes, but in that situation you have to keep in mind the Emperor has no intrinsic power to fight the Colleges, he is a dude with a fancy hammer, if he's lucky he's even good with it, if the intent to to 'fight' the assassin and spy college gets to them before it gets to the EC he might just choke on a fish bone or something. ( ). I would be surprised in Algard does not have Emergency Emperor Removal plan in his desk... in case of corruption of course.

 

[Zero Gravitas]

Except that it's not propaganda, it's literally what we see from the inside, from someone of high rank in the Colleges who works with a lot of people from lots of Colleges, including those of high rank.

You also contradict yourself: Grey Magisters who horribly abuse their power get murdered by the Grey Order. While the truth of the matter might stay classified, the fact of the matter is that the Grey Order considers the discovery, tracking, and elimination of Black Magisters to be one of its most important duties.

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Black Magisters are at the end of the day just the most extreme and universally unacceptable form of abuse of power. Like Chaos cultists and necromancy are a big no-no for the Empire as a whole and that doesn't change if you're a Magister or not.

Now is more mundane corruption or abuse of power sanctioned that badly? It'd probably depend very heavily on the circumstances but we've certainly seen quite a bit of infighting in the College leadership - Mathilde even indirectly weighed in on the Light College leadership struggle.

Beyond that Magisters are actually pretty free - they're treated like nobles according to the Articles (which also means that technically the Colleges could bust someone for not treating a Magister like a noble) and have very few limits on what they can do.

Sure getting there isn't easy and their reputation isn't good but compared to a lot of people in the Empire it is a cushy life (except for Arcane Marks).

 

[DragonParadox]

Sure getting there isn't easy and their reputation isn't good but compared to a lot of people in the Empire it is a cushy life (except for Arcane Marks).

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Personally I think the part where most of the population hates your guts out of deep rooted superstitious dread is worse. It certainly seems to have impacted Mathilde more.

 

[pucflek]

I can't see in the update much discussion about proof gathering or in-depth investigation.

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What the fuck are you on about, the list was literally compiled by a Witch Hunter Elector Count of significant competence with ties to other witch hunter organisations.

What the hell do you think they did, took out yellow-pages and threw darts at names?

 

[dptullos]

While I generally agree with the notion that everyone makes themselves look as best as they can and tries to downplay their bad side, this is a gross misrepresentation of things.

I also agree that Vladimir was perhaps Mathilde's least deserving kill as of yet, but his sin wasn't 'not good at his job', it was 'not doing his job (managing his nation, which was not just in a bad state but also in the direct line of fire against Chaos, and also we have strong reason to believe an Everchosen is coming sometime soon-ish) at all'. That, on top of the aforementioned point that Boris was otherwise going to outright do a civil war out of desperation.

The issue here is that "getting caught" for a member of the Grey College means that you're not being competent enough in your job description. Of course the Grey College is going to hope that their members don't get caught doing things, because that's like the Jade College expecting their members to be good at herbalism or farming or whatever.

It's part of the reason why the Grey College has to be (and has the reputation of being) so tough on its own members, and part of the reason why it has the Vow of Poverty: they need to filter out people who seem more interested in personal enrichment than in aiding the Empire.

And precisely because of the temptations that Ulgu presents to its wielders, and because Greys are known to be well-suited to doing morally grey things or make hard decisions or pick lesser evils every so often, 'do the right thing' is in itself a pretty nebulous thing. You're not gonna get the College of people who have deceit and paranoia in their soul to agree on what is right.

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Vladimir's interpretation of how to do his job was different than the interpretation favored by Boris and Mathilde.

Now, I happen to agree with Boris and Mathilde's interpretation. I believe that Vladimir was a bad Tsar. However, it is clear that he is a valiant warrior and a skilled general, a man who was more than willing to risk his life in the service of Kislev. His crime was that he was unimaginative, old-fashioned, and suspicious of outsiders. We're not talking about Dieter here.

There have been plenty of Tsars in Kislev's history who did far worse than Boris. Unfortunately, he's in a position of great importance at a time of great significance. If there wasn't an Everchosen on the way, things would be different.

I feel that there's a tremendous amount of institutional arrogance here. Plans go wrong, especially when you're conducting assassinations against royalty. The basic assumption of both Regimand and Mathilde is that they would succeed, or if they somehow failed they would take all the blame. This is very unlikely in the case of the Empress, and it is absolutely false with Vladimir. If Mathilde had failed to kill Vladimir, then all of his suspicions against the Empire would be redoubled, and he would immediately take steps to further limit Kislev's ties.

Regimand and Mathilde both assumed that they're good enough that it wouldn't matter. This was true. It will keep being true until it isn't.

As for the Vow of Poverty, Mathilde is absurdly rich. Like so many things about the Grey College, the Vow is focused on keeping up appearances and manipulating legal loopholes. "The good of the Empire" means whatever the Grey College wants it to mean, just as the laws and ideas of Sigmar's Holy Empire mean that Regimand can murder his boss's wife without telling him.

Well yes, but in that situation you have to keep in mind the Emperor has no intrinsic power to fight the Colleges, he is a dude with a fancy hammer, if he's lucky he's even good with it, if the intent to to 'fight' the assassin and spy college gets to them before it gets to the EC he might just choke on a fish bone or something. ( ). I would be surprised in Algard does not have Emergency Emperor Removal plan in his desk... in case of corruption of course.

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The Colleges are barely tolerated by the commons of the Empire. If they murder an Emperor and get caught, then the Grand Theogonist will proclaim that they are "witches" who have rebelled against Sigmar's Holy Empire, and at that point the Articles won't protect them. The Magisters will probably be fine, but journeymen on the road may not be.

Baby wizards outside the Colleges will be very dead.

The legitimacy of the Colleges have comes from Magnus the Pious, who said that wizards can be good if they follow the Articles of Imperial Magic. Throw those Articles away, and the authorities will treat you like Chaos sorcerers or vampires.

What the fuck are you on about, the list was literally compiled by a Witch Hunter Elector Count of significant competence with ties to other witch hunter organisations.

What the hell do you think they did, took out yellow-pages and threw darts at names?

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Because Witch Hunters have never ever burned anyone innocent. Totally didn't happen!

Especially not when they're dealing with a group of vampires who are famous for elaborate conspiracies, vampires who are very very good at telling lies.

Of course, it's possible that any trial would have proven the guilt of the Empress beyond a doubt. But since she never had a trial, we can't say.

 

[Alratan]

While I generally agree with the notion that everyone makes themselves look as best as they can and tries to downplay their bad side, this is a gross misrepresentation of things.

I do agree that Vladimir was perhaps Mathilde's least deserving kill as of yet, but his sin wasn't 'not good at his job', it was 'not doing his job (managing his nation, which was not just in a bad state but also in the direct line of fire against Chaos, and also we have strong reason to believe an Everchosen is coming sometime soon-ish) at all'. That, on top of the aforementioned point that Boris was otherwise going to outright do a civil war out of desperation.

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The problem is that Boris is hardly a disinterested witness. He's the greatest beneficiary of his father's death. He and his father had different views on what the Tzar's job was. His father thought that it was better for the Tzar to be a figurehead and general while devolving most of the governing. That isn't a completely indefensible position. Boris disagrees because Boris has grand plans that require a powerful central autocrat to impose on the nation.

From the perspective of an ambitious autocrat it makes a lot of sense to seize control of more resources they can personally direct in accordance with their vision, but it's quite possible that those resources could be more productively directed at a more local level with a greater understanding of their specific situations

It's easy for Boris to point to the big things that he'll get done that his father won't. It's much harder to account for the many small things that won't get done because Boris has redirected the resources that would have been used to do them.

This is the standard self-justification of the autocrat, and I think it usually falls apart when you dig into it and look at the unspoken opportunity cost.

For example, Boris' answer wasn't to form a pro-development faction in court and persuade the Boyars he was right and collaborate with each other to implement his proposals. His father clearly wouldn't have cared to block them. He didn't believe in that approach or had failed to convince them. His answer was to murder his father and then use state power to compel the Boyars to obey (with the implicit threat of further murder). That doesn't suggest the kind of mindset that's actually very good at efficiently implementing grand plans in a cost effective way which requires gracefully responding to unexpected obstacles or opportunities.

And I suspect the Elector Counts may particularly object to the idea that the Grey College can assassinate heads of state because they're insufficiently centralising and leave too much authority in the hands of their vassals.

What the fuck are you on about, the list was literally compiled by a Witch Hunter Elector Count of significant competence with ties to other witch hunter organisations.

What the hell do you think they did, took out yellow-pages and threw darts at names?

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I think they compiled a list of people they suspected or had some reason to believe were involved. What those reasons were we don't know, or how they weighed up the relative risks of including the innocent or excluding the guilty in terms of standards of proof. I doubt they used Beyond Reasonable doubt. Even preponderance of evidence may seem like too high a standard. Given the stakes, it could simply be a list of people they had probable cause to suspect.

 

[pucflek]

Because Witch Hunters have never ever burned anyone innocent. Totally didn't happen!

Especially not when they're dealing with a group of vampires who are famous for elaborate conspiracies, vampires who are very very good at telling lies.

Of course, it's possible that any trial would have proven the guilt of the Empress beyond a doubt. But since she never had a trial, we can't say.

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I am not sure you understand how politically fraught it is to include the Empress, the wife of your one single "superior", in a list of vampire conspirators, as an Elector Count. You don´t include someone like that on any list without a damn reason. There is a world of difference between burning some random burgher or peasant in bumfuck nowhere and the goddamn Empress of Sigmar´s Holy Empire.

 

[Tasoli]

I can't see in the update much discussion about proof gathering or in-depth investigation.

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Literally was not our job. IT was the job of Witch Hunters which they did and Regiman who had been running a parelel investigation himself was convinced that Witch Hunters was right.

Reasonable reading of this is that Empress was Lahmian pawn, knowingly or otherwise but paranoid reading is that everybody that was involved was wrong.

So you know pick your side.

I think they compiled a list of people they suspected or had some reason to believe were involved. What those reasons were we don't know, or how they weighed up the relative risks of including the innocent or excluding the guilty in terms of standards of proof. I doubt they used Beyond Reasonable doubt. Even preponderance of evidence may seem like too high a standard. Given the stakes, it could simply be a list of people they had probably cause to suspect.

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You do remember what Regimand said about Lahmian operations right? They took over bunch of existing secret orders. Witch Hunters Probably already knew Empress was part of a secret organization they just left it alone since said organization was no threat. Then Lahmian take over and suddenly it is dangerious. Empress herself might not even know she was Lahmian puppet but also she trusted somebody she never met so you know.

 

[DragonParadox]

The Colleges are barely tolerated by the commons of the Empire. If they murder an Emperor and get caught, then the Grand Theogonist will proclaim that they are "witches" who have rebelled against Sigmar's Holy Empire, and at that point the Articles won't protect them. The Magisters will probably be fine, but journeymen on the road may not be.

Baby wizards outside the Colleges will be very dead.

The legitimacy of the Colleges have comes from Magnus the Pious, who said that wizards can be good if they follow the Articles of Imperial Magic. Throw those Articles away, and the authorities will treat you like Chaos sorcerers or vampires.

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Yes, but that is a lot of ifs you have there and the Grey College is a lot better at sneaking and killing than... any non-wizard is at spotting them. We have taken worse risks than that, Roll a 1 and instant game over for the monitor comes to mind.

Also going back to my point a few pages ago, not being insane, unholy, repulsive to animals etc... and still being able to do the sneak magic would make Greys a lot more scary than vampires and cultists. Even if they could not take it over (and in a situation where they got caught killing one emperor they probably could not) they could probably still tear the thing apart and take over some smaller portion of it.

 

[reignonyrparade]

Yeah there is ANY name on that list that used beyond reasonable doubt, it was the empress, and I'm absolutely 100% sure they did in fact at least go for preponderance of evidence.

 

[DragonParadox]

I am not sure you understand how politically fraught it is to include the Empress, the wife of your one single "superior", in a list of vampire conspirators, as an Elector Count. You don´t include someone like that on any list without a damn reason. There is a world of difference between burning some random burgher or peasant in bumfuck nowhere and the goddamn Empress of Sigmar´s Holy Empire.

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Didn't we get that list from a dying Van Hall? I think he would have been rather beyond caring about the politics at that point, it would not be his call to kill her, he'd just want to get all the info he had out there.

 

[French Cowboy]

Because Witch Hunters have never ever burned anyone innocent. Totally didn't happen!

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The context matters a lot here. No one wanted to murder the empress, and they looked for every potential path to avoid murdering the empress.

Sure innocent people get burned all the time in the empire, but the empress was certainly double, triple and quadruple checked for her guilt. The templars were looking for any reason to *not* do there jobs.

 

[Mopman43]

Now, I happen to agree with Boris and Mathilde's interpretation. I believe that Boris was a bad Tsar. However, it is clear that he is a valiant warrior and a skilled general, a man who was more than willing to risk his life in the service of Kislev. His crime was that he was unimaginative, old-fashioned, and suspicious of outsiders. We're not talking about Dieter here.

There have been plenty of Tsars in Kislev's history who did far worse than Boris. Unfortunately, he's in a position of great importance at a time of great significance. If there wasn't an Everchosen on the way, things would be different.

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Just for the sake of everyone's clarity in the argument, I just want to point out the spots where you meant 'Vladimir' again.

 

[dptullos]

I am not sure you understand how politically fraught it is to include the Empress, the wife of your one single "superior", in a list of vampire conspirators, as an Elector Count. You don´t include someone like that on any list without a damn reason. There is a world of difference between burning some random burgher or peasant in bumfuck nowhere and the goddamn Empress of Sigmar´s Holy Empire.

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This is a valid point.

Yes, but that is a lot of ifs you have there and the Grey College is a lot better at sneaking and killing than... any non-wizard is at spotting them. We have taken worse risks than that, Roll a 1 and instant game over for the monitor comes to mind.

Also going back to my point a few pages ago, not being insane, unholy, repulsive to animals etc... and still being able to do the sneak magic would make Greys a lot more scary than vampires and cultists. Even if they could not take it over (and in a situation where they got caught killing one emperor they probably could not) they could probably still tear the thing apart and take over some smaller portion of it.

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If you roll the dice often enough, you get unlucky.

Grey Wizards seem to be comfortable with a tremendous amount of institutional arrogance, and I think some of it is earned. But there aren't many Grey Wizards, and the public does not like them. If you live in a society where a very large minority is looking for an excuse to kill you, why would you risk giving them a reason?

The context matters a lot here. No one wanted to murder the empress, and they looked for every potential path to avoid murdering the empress.

Sure innocent people get burned all the time in the empire, but the empress was certainly double, triple and quadruple checked for her guilt. The templars were looking for any reason to *not* do there jobs.

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Yeah, I was wrong. They're going to be very careful, and they know there are Lahmians involved. If the Templars think she did it, it's very unlikely that she's innocent.

Just for the sake of everyone's clarity in the argument, I just want to point out the spots where you meant 'Vladimir' again.

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Thank you!