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I'm pretty sure you are overstating this by a wide margin. Remember Mathilde Weber, the shadowmancer taken in as an orphan and indoctrinated as much as any of the Eight Colleges have having to remind herself to lie and put the Empire over the Grey Order? Remember that conversation we had with Magister Horstman about superstitious idiots, why we prefer dwarfs and how he basically nodded and agreed?
Also if it happened again. It would not take the colleges to take a majority vote for that action to happen. The big difference between wizards and all other powerful people in the empire is that their power is personal. They don't need a lot of buy in*. It doesn't take very many of them to affect great change.

A Emperor who banned the colleges would be effectively defenseless. Just like that other Emperor we killed.

*The college of Necromancy was a great example. Mathilde could just go in and kill stuff well the Emperor has to convince a bunch of people and generally has to politic.
 
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As bad as Dieter IV was, he was only arguably guilty of treason when he accepted a bribe from Marienburg to give it independence. From the Empire's standpoint, he was not a traitor or an enemy of the Empire, and so the Colleges did not kill him.

Even allowing Marienberg to pay the Empire in return for granting it independence is a hard sell as treason, given that the concept of the Empire and Emperor's budget being separate may well not be well established. There's also the diplomatic sensitivities with the Empire's neighbours, given that parts of Bretonnia, northern Tilea, the Border Princes, and Kilsev (including its capital) used to be ruled by the Empire, and presumably the claim surrendered at some point.

Arguments that it would be inherently treason to recognise that a place that was once part of the Empire is no longer part of it run into the issue that Magnus presumably must have done it with respect to Kislev, as he was the first Emperor of a unified Empire since before Miska defeated the allied Empire, Bretonnian and dwarven army and established Kislev on what had previously been Imperial land.

What Dieter did was worse than a crime, it was a mistake.

Also if it happened again. It would not take the colleges to take a majority vote for that action to happen. The big difference between wizards and all other powerful people in the empire is that their power is personal. It doesn't take very many of them to affect great change.

A Emperor who banned the colleges would be effectively defenseless.

Well, there are probably some priests who have a significant degree of personal power who could do something similar.

Consider that the Empire won the Vampire Wars, against superhuman spellcasters who can learn spells from multiple lores without it mutating them or driving them mad, who also have other supernatural powers. There must be some defence against invisible teleporting shapeshifting mind controlling assassins, because anything a grey wizard can do, a vampire should be able to do better, and the Empire didn't disintegrate because all its leaders were found dead in their beds one after another.
 
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Well, there are probably some priests who have a significant degree of personal power who could do something similar.

Consider that the Empire won the Vampire Wars, against superhuman spellcasters who can learn spells from multiple lores without it mutating them or driving them mad, who also have other supernatural powers. There must be some defence against invisible teleporting shapeshifting mind controlling assassins, because, anything a grey wizard can do, a vampire can do better.

Most vampires are uniquely vulnerable to the divine, shadow wizards are not. Also not being native to the depths of Sylvania probably helps with the infiltration, literally and figuratively speaking the language.
 
Most vampires are uniquely vulnerable to the divine, shadow wizards are not. Also not being native to the depths of Sylvania probably helps with the infiltration, literally and figuratively speaking the language.

Vampires are vulnerable to the divine, but not that I can see in ways that particularly stop them teleporting between tents while invisible the night before a battle and killing off the officers, or pulling off lots of the same kind of assassinations that Mathilde has made her specialty.

They're also not so vulnerable that Lahmians can't operate within human societies in prominent roles as aristocrats.
 
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Vampires are vulnerable to the divine, but not that I can see in ways that particularly stop them teleporting between tents while invisible the night before a battle and killing off the officers.

They're also not so vulnerable that Lahmians can't operate within human societies in prominent roles as aristocrats.

That should realistically be a thing they can do yes and they probably do that before a major battle. I was talking more about killing the Emperor, bearer of the Big Hammer (TM) and friend to many Sigmarites. I'm pretty confident Lahmians do not habitually come in range of that thing, hence why when they turned the empress into their tool they left her human.
 
Vampires have all sorts of vulnerabilities that can be taken advantage of. Just the fact that their presence spooks animals can be used as a crude detection mechanism. More importantly they liked Dieter being in charge.
 
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They could still be some ex-Magisters in Marienberg who fled there after the Colleges were outlawed and never came back.
Why would they have fled there after the Colleges were outlawed, when they would necessarily also be outlawed in Marienburg?

From what Boney has said I expect more than a few fled to the branch college in Hochland and the locals responded to Witch Hunters with 'What branch college?'.
 
That should realistically be a thing they can do yes and they probably do that before a major battle. I was talking more about killing the Emperor, bearer of the Big Hammer (TM) and friend to many Sigmarites. I'm pretty confident Lahmians do not habitually come in range of that thing, hence why when they turned the empress into their tool they left her human.

I don't see how they can avoid coming into range of it, given that they will need to attend court. Look at the likes of the future Baroness Helena von Culper, one of the direct subordinates of the Chamberlain of the Seal and head of one of the Empire's spy agencies. She managed to be part of the apparatus of Imperial government without being caught.

They could well have left the Empress human because they wouldn't have ben able to give her the training they give their vampires in how to operate in human society if they turned her.

Why would they have fled there after the Colleges were outlawed, when they would necessarily also be outlawed in Marienburg?

From what Boney has said I expect more than a few fled to the branch college in Hochland and the locals responded to Witch Hunters with 'What branch college?'.

Because I would assume that the Burghers of Marienberg would have ignored any suggestion that they should shut down their own College of Magic in the years immediately before they negotiated their independence just as Hochland did, particularly given there would have been elven spellcasters in the city, and because the Colleges were only legalised after Marienberg's independence..
 
I think he means after Marienburg got its independence.
That was 14 years after the Colleges were outlawed, so I expect that most wizards were probably well-established wherever they were bunkering down.

And the ban only lasted another year, with most of that year probably seeing a substantial Reikland army sitting between Altdorf and Marienburg. Not exactly ideal conditions for crossing the province.

Because I would assume that the Burghers of Marienberg would have ignored any suggestion that they should shut down their own College of Magic in the years immediately before they negotiated their independence just as Hochland did, particularly given there would have been elven spellcasters in the city, and because the Colleges were only legalised after Marienberg's independence..
I'm pretty sure it's unclear if Baron Heinriek's existed in any capacity prior to Marienburg's independence.
 
I don't see how they can avoid coming into range of it, given that they will need to attend court. Look at the likes of the future Baroness Helena von Culper, one of the direct subordinates of the Chamberlain of the Seal and head of one of the Empire's spy agencies. She managed to be part of the apparatus of Imperial government without being caught.

They could well have left the Empress human because they wouldn't have ben able to give her the training they give their vampires in how to operate in human society if they turned her.

Attending court can be done at quite a distance from the monarch, at least judging from what I recall of Louis the XIV's court. Speaking to the monarch much less getting in arms' reach of them was a privilege not a given because you happened to be at court.
 
That was 14 years after the Colleges were outlawed, so I expect that most wizards were probably well-established wherever they were bunkering down.

And the ban only lasted another year, with most of that year probably seeing a substantial Reikland army sitting between Altdorf and Marienburg. Not exactly ideal conditions for crossing the province.


I'm pretty sure it's unclear if Baron Heinriek's existed in any capacity prior to Marienburg's independence.

Marienberg is the largest and most cosmopolitan city in the Old World, and it's also a place that contains a small elven city state where magic would have been legal, as Imperial writ doesn't run there, as it's legally part of Ulthuan. It seems likely to have been an attractive destination for the wizards to run to, particularly given the volume of traffic down the river making it one of the easiest and quickest places to get to. The Imperial garrison had also been withdrawn, the Imperial navy there dissolved, and the excise-men reduced to a hollow shell, meaning that the Emperor had particularly little influence there. It also had the Directorate and ambitious merchants who would likely be willing and able to afford to sponsor wizards, and had the ability to do things like employ them on voyages outside the Empire.

It would also have been the obvious gateway to flee the Empire to more welcoming places, like Lothern or Tilea.

Baron Henryk's was founded in 1947 IC in canon. The only thing that's unclear is when it started teaching magic. I think Boney said it only did so publicly post-independence, but many people think that it was a secret branch of the Colleges before.
 
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The Colleges are not a monolith, but 8 different institutions, and even within those institutions they are not monoliths.

Before they got outlawed for a while, they were outright feuding with each other, and broke out into an open and messy battle even. So the point is, the Colleges do not always get along.

And for every person who looks down on common people for being bigoted or lacking magic or whatever, there could be somebody who feels more kinship to those people than to wizards.

For every person who'd be willing to rebel or overthrow an Emperor... there'd be a person who'd be willing to rebel or overthrow or challenge the Emperor because they're an Ulrican who wants to stick it to the Sigmarites and the Altdorfers/Reiklanders dominance of politics and power and hopes that a lessening of the unity or cohesion of Reiklander institutions (of which the Colleges of Magic are) might open up opportunities for Middenland or Nordland or something.

Do you want to rebel because one of your advisors or fellows thinks the fallout will hurt Altdorf or Reikland more and might benefit Middenland or Averland more, and is very supportive of wizards sticking it to "the man" so long as that man is a Sigmarite/Reiklander/Altdorfer/whatever?

And for every person willing to rebel, there could be somebody who wants to remain loyal and proud and true; who wants to weather this political calamity and instability, and emerge more trusted and more honored because of that steadfastness and displayed loyalty.

The trouble with treating the Colleges, or even a single College, as a single mass is that they are full of a bunch of different personalities, as well as different provincial tribes, different religions, different personal histories, and so on.

Getting a bunch of people like that going in a single direction is difficult. It requires either simple or straightforward or lucrative incentives, like money or survival or prestige, or it requires shared symbols and beliefs like Imperial unity and loyalty and sworn oaths and such.

Something like "buckle down because the Emperor is an asshole and we need to ride this shitstorm out for a bit" is doable because it's a pretty simple "don't die" goal. Holding down the fort and hoping things return to a status quo is both a tempting proposition, and also potentially a truism; outlasting a person or a political shitstorm for a decade or two might be viable. Depends.

Something like "kill the next Dieter" is harder because while the idea itself is simple, and implementation can be simple... the rippling side-effects of that action are anything but simple.

Will it upset the apple cart? How badly will it upset the apple cart? How will everybody else react? How about those who see opportunity or personal grudges in acting against the Colleges in this opportunity? What about actual bad actors or true traitors or cultists, willing to agitate?

Not to mention, what if the next Dieter isn't a Dieter... but just somebody who is unpopular with one third or one half of the Empire? Let's say an Ulrican supremacists who wants to stamp down a lot of the levers of influence and prestige all Sigmarite institutions have? Or an Ostlander who wants to conquer parts of Kislev because it was historically parts of Ostland and so should return to being part of Ostland. Or a Stirlander who wants to dissolve the Moot and give that land back to his home province.

Or somebody who is viewed AS a Dieter by the Collegiates/Altdorfers/wizards-as-a-whole but not by everybody? What if the Colleges think he is a Dieter, and think that everyone else also thinks he is a Dieter because they think everybody must have come to the same conclusions as them, when he's not?

Or what if somebody finds out the Emperor is a Ranaldian and lying to everybody about being a Sigmarite, and get very upset about that, and some people get rebellious about that? Because they think he's going to rule poorly, or is not going to respect the traditions or mores or laws of the Empire, or has already ruled poorly... or even just because he's a liar who said he was a Sigmarite and devoted and true when actually he's a Ranaldian, so how can you trust somebody who lies about something so big as that and tries to excuse it with something like 'well then you wouldn't have elected me if you knew I was a Ranaldian' or something?

"Well obviously we would hold true to the Emperor and be loyal and devoted, unlike those literally treasonous and traitorous jerks who are betraying our Empire by not being loyal to the Emperor!"

Yeah, welcome to how the other side of a Wilhelm or Dieter debacle might feel like.

"But that's different, the lines are pretty clearly drawn, there's a good and bad side; anybody who's not on our, the good, side is doing the bidding of the bad side."

Yeah, again, welcome to how the other side might feel. Either in the current situation, or in a "imagine if it were reversed" situation.


What if it was suddenly revealed that the Emperor's wife was a Lahmian puppet, if it had accidentally come out (or if the Lahmians had let it come out, detonating it as blackmail rather than losing the shadow war against the Templars and Grey Order!) and somebody seized upon that to tar the Emperor himself with that accusation too? "The Emperor is a Lahmian asset!"

Or what if a big Oopsie had happened, and the Lahmians had managed to make the Empress's assassination messy and public, and pinned it on the Templars or the Colleges of Magic or both?

What if Leopold had ordered the Amethyst and/or Grey Colleges purged? Or maybe just called to account and for somebody to go through everything that they had been up to and to rifle through all their secrets, in order to ascertain their guilt or innocence or the level of punishment that should be leveled on them? What do you think they'd find, if they were to go through all the Grey and/or Amethyst's dirty laundry? Secrets as big and explosive as the assassination of an Empress, perhaps? What if the Greys or Amethysts had refused, or had tried to hide away or burn documents? What if Leopold had taken it as proof of even greater guilt? What if others had taken it as proof of great guilt, and Leopold felt pressured to act because they were going "See! See! They're guilty!" What if they refuse to let somebody go through their stuff, either because they think they're guilty, or because they have a lot of secrets and blackmail that they don't want the Emperor or whomever the Emperor sends getting it (or third parties stealing it in the confusion)? "But the Emperor wouldn't do that, because that's a bad idea; and if he'd do a bad idea, it'd be justified to oppose him, because he's doing a very bad idea." Maybe grieving people don't act rationally. And maybe they only realize they made a mistake after the fact, and then can't back down. Or everybody else starts accelerating the situation after their initial proclamation (perhaps many people acting on logic of "This person made a bad call, therefore he's up to something shady/very bad, therefore I am justified to..." to all accelerate or leap to conclusions).

What if only the Templars had gotten the heat for it, and a purge ordered for them? Would the Grey Order wash their hands of it, or would they try to shelter them because they tried to do the right thing, try to fake their deaths, or whatnot, or who knows? How many would trust the Grey Order if they knew they'd left a co-conspirator out to dry like that? Sure, few if any would know of it, but a few might know and keep it as a deep secret passed on through family or teacher-student lines. Or the Lahmians might know.


If you want people to be loyal to the Emperor or the Empire as a whole, even if they might sometimes not want to be, you sometimes have to be willing to give some level of loyalty or support to the Emperor/Empire -- or the concept of the Emperor or the Empire, the hope or desire for the current bad times to blow over or for this current guy to calm the fuck down or get reined in by his wife or his cabinet or his supporters or his kids or whomever -- even in crappy conditions.

Or at least, like, you got to be willing to extend forgiveness or understanding to the other side (and not just "Well obviously, if they acknowledge that we were in the right and they were bad and in the wrong, we will forgive them for their actions!") in order for there to be the ability to move on after the crisis passes, or for a chance to resolve the crisis.

Or you have to be willing to offer up one of your own as a sacrifice, as well a probably a bunch of weregild maybe, in such a case. Which is why the Patriarch and the Emperor have to not-be-okay-with-it for stuff like the Boris thing. But in order to be willing to accept a sacrifice from a group, you have to be willing to believe that that group is capable of good faith and remorse and capable of acting loyally and devotedly under normal circumstance (and some abnormal circumstances too). There has to be trust and faith. And trust and faith is built up by devotion, service, and hardship, and being tested under hard conditions. Institutional trust and faith is hard to build up -- especially so if you have magical powers of lying and deception.

And a good way to build up that reserve of trust and faith, is by remaining loyal and devoted under difficult or extreme circumstances. So even somebody who feels more kinship and loyalty to the Grey Order, or to wizards or the Colleges as a whole, might still find reasons to be very devoted to the Emperor or the Empire. For the greater good of their College(s) and their future children and students.


This went on a long hypothetical branch about how things might go, or how people might feel or think, in situations where loyalties or Emperors or Empires might split.

To try to tie it back in and summarize a bit...

Don't assume that knowing who is a bad Emperor is easy to tell. Don't assume that a rebellion would be a good (or least-bad) thing to do, compared to trying to weather it out. Don't assume that the 8 Colleges are united in mind. Don't assume that a College is united in mind even within itself.

Don't even assume that just because somebody is more loyal to the Colleges, or their College, or to close friends, that they might not want to weather a bad Emperor because they don't want to associate their College's reputation with a rebellion or an opposition to the Emperor of the time, because they want their family or co-workers to be able to be proud and loyal to the Empire and Emperor in the future.

Don't assume that picking a side is easy... because it might not be easy to determine who is in the wrong or who is in the right. (But it might be very easy to assume that being able to tell good from bad and easy, and thus assume that picking a side is easy. And thus, easy to assume that everybody who didn't pick your side is a bad person or opposted to you or etc.)

And don't assume that people picking the other side might not have reasons to act like that -- or might not be acting on higher ideals and a sense of sacrifice and a value of the greater good, wanting to remain loyal and dedicated even at cost to themselves or their group, because they believe loyalty and dedication is its own reward being a coin that is hard to purchase and easy to squander.

And don't forget that in times of chaos, strife, and uncertainty, bad actors can thrive off the chaos and division. And can whisper in people's ears and tell them to stry to thrive and profit off the chaos, too.

Loyalty and unity is not an easy to grasp, and it is not an easy thing to bear.

It is not merely something that is maintained under "ideal" circumstances of hardship, such as "I lost a bunch of my friends/family/comrades and my home and wealth fighting a war against undead/chaos/whatever... but I am still loyal to the Elector/Emperor/etc, even though I lost a lot and haven't seen a lot of reward". It is also something that has to try to be maintained under messy and uncertain circumstances.

Because if you decide that loyalty and duty and sacrifice and unity doesn't exist as soon as both the physical incentives and people's opinions are against you... yeah, things can get nasty for you, and nasty for your group as a side-effect too. =/

Reputation and faith/trust in you can be something that you lose as an individual person for good, and temporarily for your group, in order to stave off an even greater loss of reputation and faith/trust in your group as a whole in the long run.
 
The Colleges are not a monolith, but 8 different institutions, and even within those institutions they are not monoliths.

Before they got outlawed for a while, they were outright feuding with each other, and broke out into an open and messy battle even. So the point is, the Colleges do not always get along.

And for every person who looks down on common people for being bigoted or lacking magic or whatever, there could be somebody who feels more kinship to those people than to wizards.

For every person who'd be willing to rebel or overthrow an Emperor... there'd be a person who'd be willing to rebel or overthrow or challenge the Emperor because they're an Ulrican who wants to stick it to the Sigmarites and the Altdorfers/Reiklanders dominance of politics and power and hopes that a lessening of the unity or cohesion of Reiklander institutions (of which the Colleges of Magic are) might open up opportunities for Middenland or Nordland or something.

This is very much not true, we are just a weirdo with a high piety score that draws in other similar wizards, but generally most wizards have little in the way of religious leanings and what they do have tends to the esoteric, like the cults the Jades and Lights have going on. I would not be surprised if you can count the number of Ulrican wizards in the colleges on on one's fingers.

Also you appear to have confused by statement that that wizards could take over the Empire/murder the Emperor for some kind of mortal statement on the goodness of such an act. A mageocracy would if anything be worse than the current system because everyone on top comes with an inbuilt risk of being possessed/corrupted above and beyond living in the hellhole that is Mallus.
 
The other issue is that as there are quite a few wizards out there, them deciding that they can unilaterally assassinate Imperial dignitaries, for whatever reasons means that you could end up with anarchy.

I think a greater risk than actual Magocracy is that every political player needs heavyweight magical assistance to protect them from some other wizard getting it into their head that the Empire would be better off with them dead or discredited. It means there's a strong incentive for the various players to try very hard to draw wizards into the game on their side.

Long term, I wouldn't be surprised if we start to see more far sighted Imperial aristocrats seeking to make what are essentially marriage alliances with the Colleges. There's some evidence to a hereditary component to magic, but even beyond that having a Collegiate spouse could well be perceived as a deterrent to other wizards picking a fight.

It's not explored in the canon material much, but this is something that you'd have thought would have happened with the non-celibate priesthoods, with younger sons and daughters being ordained and then marrying their social peers - with spellcasting priests being particularly attractive spouses.

Would be a factor that would accelerate the spread of the cult of Myrmidia in relation to the celibate cults of Sigmar and Ulric.

The spells of the priests of both Myrmidia and Verena would be very useful for members of the nobility.

Thinking about it, this could create demand for a valuable trade good for Laurerlorn depending on how things work out. They can probably scale up their enchanting output to produce magical defences for the Empire's aristocracy. Assuming such enchantments exist, that is.
 
Would be a factor that would accelerate the spread of the cult of Myrmidia in relation to the celibate cults of Sigmar and Ulric.
I'm not sure there's any mention of the Cult of Sigmar being celibate. I've certainly never seen anything stating it's required.


I expect there absolutely have been noble families intermarrying with the Cults, but it was probably for political power rather than prayers. It's the common understanding of the average Imperial that Warrior Priests can use Prayers because of their faith, not their heritage.
 
Replace religiosity with any other strongly-felt identifier or political affiliation. Or substitute religious kinship with ambition or politics; "Well, I'm not an Ulrican, but the Ulrican Emperor is doing things I agree with a lot/disagree with a lot so..."

It also spoke to the divisions between the Colleges, and even within the Colleges, because they are a bunch of groups and also a bunch of weirdos too.

And I don't think the wizards could take over the Empire, nor took it for a moral statement in and of itself. Rather I was thinking about the motivations of people; what they might think would be moral, or might argue would be moral, or how they might feel or act upon one thing or another. And the risks and rewards and costs and payoffs of loyalty and devotion and such.


I hadn't been thinking about a magocracy at all. Personally, I'd probably be against it not because of the risks of possession or blowing up, but because of the concentration of power. Or to put it another way, when the topic of wizard nobles was brought up long ago, some people were for it because they were thinking "Well, we know wizards are good and the Colleges are good at creating good people, right? So we would be good at being nobles." whereas I looked at it from the viewpoint of; "Don't think of it as 'wizards with nobility', think of it instead as 'nobles with magic powers'. Don't ask yourself whether you'd trust Mathild with rulership of Cactus Fief or Stirland or Margravehood. Ask yourself if you'd trust the Von Whatevers or McSo-and-So's with Ulgu. Do you trust nobles, the aristocracy, with magic? Do others trust nobles with magic? Do the common folk, or the burghers, want to be ruled by people with powers they don't have and don't understand very well?"

And because it can't pass on through family lines as easily, thus meaning there'd be uncertainty as to just who would rule at any given time; and which would thus have to be solved by some set of rules or traditions, probably involving some form of "Who has the biggest boom?" or "Who can rally the most people to support their bid for Chancellor/Emperor/Noble/etc?" Which means you're back to the question of "Who should rule? How do we decide who rules?" and thus trying to find an answer for that. I predict it probably devolving into power struggles of some sort over the generations, except this time by people with magic powers. Not a great time for people. Not because the prospective rulers are at risk of possession or blowing up (though that isn't great either) but because their noble class are full of people with supernatural powers and ambition; not only can they not enter that class or match them in any way, it also means that anybody with great ambition or great evil might cause a lot of damage because they have a lot of magic too.

It could function well if the culture and mores are static-y or relaxed-y. If everybody is content to be ruled because the rulers are chill and not doing much. The system functions because the system is allowed to function and the people don't squabble much, basically. But. If that is the case, then... couldn't that success also be the case for any other type of governmental system? The success would be down to the chill nature of the people involved, or the machine of state that underlaid the wizard nobles jockeying for power, rather than due to Rule-By-Biggest-Wizard-Staff, no? In which case, why pick magocracy over aristocracy or oligarchy or republicanism or theocracy?

And also because taking over a government from the shadows and with skulduggery is a bad thing for just and righteous rulership and governance in general. And also because even if the first generation of shadow rulers were good because they took over for a good reason... the succeeding generations would not be like that; they would not be out to seize power from a corrupt or evil ruler, they would be out to maintain power. ((And you'd also have an example set of "If you don't like your rulers... then take over and rule from the shadows." Great precedent for stability and trust there.))

Theocracy or rule by priesthood might be better compared to magocrazy; at least you can argue that the Gods are worshipped and shared by all the peoples of a given city or a given region or a given culture or ethnic group. Which means that the people would have a point of similarity with their rulers; they might not have supernatural powers like them, but at least they'd know that they were connected to the same Gods that they themselves worship, which means they'd know their rulers wouldn't be totally out there in terms of what values they'd hold and what incentives or goals they might have.

I don't think it would be the best. But it might be better than magocracy. (Though, given I went "In a magocracy, it might come down to 'what is the underlying system and culture of the rulers and the ruled?'" anyway, I guess the same goes for theocracy too. Just, a theocracy is more connected to the culture of the people, because religion is heavily part of culture/vice-versa, so... so I guess it's not all 'If the people or system is good, it works'. Though some combinations of people and systems are better than others, and some people and systems are better than others, or more functional. Or circumstances account for a lot. Circumstances like underwhat circumstances a government comes to be. Like whether it's a dramatic war against an external foe, or an inside coup, or etc.)
 
Replace religiosity with any other strongly-felt identifier or political affiliation. Or substitute religious kinship with ambition or politics; "Well, I'm not an Ulrican, but the Ulrican Emperor is doing things I agree with a lot/disagree with a lot so..."

It also spoke to the divisions between the Colleges, and even within the Colleges, because they are a bunch of groups and also a bunch of weirdos too.

And I don't think the wizards could take over the Empire, nor took it for a moral statement in and of itself. Rather I was thinking about the motivations of people; what they might think would be moral, or might argue would be moral, or how they might feel or act upon one thing or another. And the risks and rewards and costs and payoffs of loyalty and devotion and such.

In the situation where the Emperor declares 'all wizards are to be killed on sight' which is what Dieter 2.0 means in this context, it is in the clear and present interest of all wizards to do one of two things:
  1. Leave the Empire
  2. Make imperial authorities stop trying to murder them
Some to be clear would leave, Mathilde for instance would be an ideal position to do so as for her it would not even be leaving but 'not going back', but for the people left behind, some of the more senior membership at their second Articles repeal it would be tempting to just take over through covert means rather than count on the good will of the next Emperor to give them back the privilege of legally breathing.
 
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And because it can't pass on through family lines as easily, thus meaning there'd be uncertainty as to just who would rule at any given time; and which would thus have to be solved by some set of rules or traditions, probably involving some form of "Who has the biggest boom?" or "Who can rally the most people to support their bid for Chancellor/Emperor/Noble/etc?"

There seems to be some evidence from the druids that it does pass through magical lines, as the children of druids seem to have been more druids, and one of the 2E adventures had a potion that if taken by someone who was a close relative/descendants of a wizard they'd have a chance of awakening magical talent.

Tome of Sorcery seems to take it as given that the children of magic users are capable of learning it, as in this quote from the Studying Magic and Spellcraft section where it discusses wizards' children and then spontaneous manifestation of the talent as two of the two places wizards come from:

Part of the core of Ghyran's Aethyric preference is the desire and drive for natural fertility and growth, which includes the raising of families. It's not unheard of for male and female members of this Order to actively embrace the natural urges that Ghyran promotes. The children they have and raise almost always then go on to join the Order.

It's more likely for the mostly peasant hedge wizards and witches to have children than it is for the Collegiate Magisters. Hedge wizards and witches form traditions by passing down their knowledge to their children. Teaching their children, however, presents a tremendous risk. A youth being taught "shaky" magic by a parent may be more likely to make a mistake. However, those children who survive the education tend to grow up more confident and powerful in their dangerous art than their parents. Throughout the Empire there are many tales of families of witches, sister Hags, or Daemon-possessed children who kill their neighbours and eventually even their parents.

...

There are a few people born to ordinary families who suddenly manifest what appear to be magical powers

This strongly suggests that the children of magisters would be magisters, so a magical nobility would indeed be hereditary, passing their gifts onto the next generation. They could absorb the few people born to ordinary families by adoption or marriage.
 
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I hadn't been thinking about a magocracy at all. Personally, I'd probably be against it not because of the risks of possession or blowing up, but because of the concentration of power. Or to put it another way, when the topic of wizard nobles was brought up long ago, some people were for it because they were thinking "Well, we know wizards are good and the Colleges are good at creating good people, right? So we would be good at being nobles." whereas I looked at it from the viewpoint of; "Don't think of it as 'wizards with nobility', think of it instead as 'nobles with magic powers'. Don't ask yourself whether you'd trust Mathild with rulership of Cactus Fief or Stirland or Margravehood. Ask yourself if you'd trust the Von Whatevers or McSo-and-So's with Ulgu. Do you trust nobles, the aristocracy, with magic? Do others trust nobles with magic? Do the common folk, or the burghers, want to be ruled by people with powers they don't have and don't understand very well?"
I think I remember that discussion. I will restate my position that I would in fact rather see it as "wizards with nobility" rather than "nobles with magic powers". Being a wizard inherently changes how others see you in a way that nobility really doesn't. And nobility is not something so utterly ingrained that that the Colleges' training for Apprentices cannot overcome it and hammer in the fact that a legal wizard's first loyalty is to the Empire as a whole.

While I do think you're making a great point regarding how a lot of common folk or burghers wouldn't really like to be ruled by people with powers they can't understand or even see, I think the better questions to ask are:

"Would most nobles even want magic, when a good number of people think of it as a curse and inherently fear magic? How many of them would instead decide to have their potential sealed away?" "Would most nobles want to use Ulgu, when the Grey College is known to be super strict regarding the usage of its powers and to not use it for personal enrichment?" "Would many existing magic families even want to rule, when they probably already have their own personal bugbears and projects to deal with, and being in charge is the sort of thing that takes up a lot of time?"

This strongly suggests that the children of magisters would be magisters, so a magical nobility would indeed be hereditary, passing their gifts onto the next generation. They could absorb the few people born to ordinary families by adoption or marriage.
We got told basically as much once:

"Magister Michel Solmann, at your service," he says with a bow.

You gesture at the seat across from you. "Solmann," you say. "Any relation to Klaus Solmann?"

"A cousin on my father's side," he says as he sits. "With proper attention to the portents, the gift of magic can be encouraged to run in the family."
We also know that the Hedgewise communities are pretty tighly-knit, which I imagine helps in finding people with magical potential to train in Hedgecraft.
 
I think I remember that discussion. I will restate my position that I would in fact rather see it as "wizards with nobility" rather than "nobles with magic powers". Being a wizard inherently changes how others see you in a way that nobility really doesn't. And nobility is not something so utterly ingrained that that the Colleges' training for Apprentices cannot overcome it and hammer in the fact that a legal wizard's first loyalty is to the Empire as a whole.

While I do think you're making a great point regarding how a lot of common folk or burghers wouldn't really like to be ruled by people with powers they can't understand or even see, I think the better questions to ask are:

"Would most nobles even want magic, when a good number of people think of it as a curse and inherently fear magic? How many of them would instead decide to have their potential sealed away?" "Would most nobles want to use Ulgu, when the Grey College is known to be super strict regarding the usage of its powers and to not use it for personal enrichment?" "Would many existing magic families even want to rule, when they probably already have their own personal bugbears and projects to deal with, and being in charge is the sort of thing that takes up a lot of time?"
If you can do that, if training and culture can do that, can't you just do that for nobility to begin with in the first place?

And if magic is something that provides more opportunities to be good or bad; to be either trusted with power, or to fail and thus not be trusted with power, and thus is a better sorting mechanism or so the argument would go... well, everybody would have an opinion on the assertion of "Magic makes me better because I have more opportunities to be morally tested, and thus my kind should rule."

Other problems arise, too; wizards are policed by the Colleges... who are centralized in Altdorf. This would be rule-by-Altdorfian-culture/institutions. "the Colleges' training for Apprentices cannot overcome it and hammer in the fact that a legal wizard's first loyalty is to the Empire as a whole." would be creating not a new and more-improved strain of nobility, it would be forming the basis of rule by federalization or centralization. Which, well, your answer might be "But if they're the best(TM) anyway, what does it matter if they all go to Altdorf to get taught?" but, uh, everybody else would have an opinion on that. This wouldn't be seen as rule-by-Wizard-Nobles, this would be seen by at least some as an attempt by an institution (or 8 institutions) localized and centralized in Reikland to assert rulership over all the others.

Maybe you could test the system out in Reikland alone, and see if it has good or bad outcomes. But then, how would you export the system elsewhere? Would you form more Colleges of Magic in each province? And if so, would each College try to be a carbon-copy of the Altdorfian institution and mores, or would it try to be one that asborbed and exemplified the more and values and religions and cultures of the locals?

Also, what if people don't want to be locked out of the highest stations of power simply because they lack magic? What if people wanted the possibility of rising to nobility -- or marrying into nobility and they or their non-magical children becoming nobles -- without having magic or their kids needing to have magic?


My thoughts were partly thinking from the perspective of "Assume that people with power are going to act like people with power; and look at this from a long-running or multi-generational outcome rather than just a 'What would the first generation be like?'" Which is why my answer was "Well, people with power will act like people with power do. Except this time they'll have more personal power at hand, to boot." Hence why I viewed it as "Nobility with magic" rather than "Wizards becoming nobles". Because in the long run, that's what it would become; nobility having to be trusted with magic power. Rule by wizards.

That "the first generation would be like" thing is also pretty important; because the people that carve an empire or a nation out of nothing, or from a crumbling empire or set of nations, are not the same as the people that will replace them and will come later. Wizard Nobles might be fine now, because of the standards or training of the Colleges, but that might come down to a variety of factors one of which would be a sort of hybrid vigor or first mover effect.

Also, what if one of the reasons that the Colleges have good outcomes, is because of the limitations on their powers and the strict responsibilities placed upon them? Or because they're only one part of the apparatus of the Empire, with other roles and parts being taken up by other peoples?

What about the wizards that don't want to rule? What if the Amethysts/Ambers/several-others wind up mostly not being the sort of personality that wants to rule, and it's, say, the Celestials that are far more happy to rule? Or worse; what if opening up nobility and rulership to wizards, means that every wizard who is an ambitious sort, now has a pathway or goal for that ambition; namely, to become a noble. Meaning that the more humble or easygoing wizards remain workers or servants or wandering heroes or soldiers. While the ambitious strive for power.

Basically "What if it's the limitations on their ambitions and positions, that are one of the reasons wizards are good and effective?" restated again; i.e. "If you open the doors to power and status, don't be surprised if you get power-striving and status-seeking people come running."


Hence why I stated it as "View it as 'nobles with magic power'", because that's what it might come down to over the generations. Open the ceiling for powerful and ambitious people to obtain status/wealth/power, then don't be surprised if you get powerful and ambitious people seeking power and wealth and status. You will inevitably get this in any scenario involving money/power/fame. Hence why maybe wizards shouldn't rule, because maybe the best usage out of them, is in ways that focuses what their magic can do for the Empire ((as guided by their integrity and character, which is molded by the wizard and the College)) rather than whether their integrity and character can make them good rulers. Because maybe if you take the wizard out of the current ecosystem he operates in, maybe things change a lot.

... And also, if wizards are busy ruling, then they're busy not being wizards. Is it a good thing to tap into our reserve of people-who-can-use-supernatural-powers for rulership, rather than utilizing them for whatever-position-supernatural-powers-are-best-used-for?

Is Mathilde or Panoramia or Max better placed as a ruler, or as somebody who creates Waystones or rehabilitates farmland or helps translate Queekish? And maybe the Mathildes and Panoramias can remain researchers and farmers and heroes; but if they disagreed with who was going to become a noble, they might feel compelled to take up power themselves, or to block others from having that power, and you wind up in the same question of "Was it really to make them a ruler rather than a researcher/hero/soldier/farmer/etc?"

At the least, it might mean that wizards have to care about politics and power even more than they already do. Which might get tiresome or undesirable for some wizards.
 
Especially in the latter case, where the Phoenix King doing something unbelievably stupid brought Ulthuan into a devastating and entirely avoidable war with their once close ally.

In the Empire, the Emperor deliberately and knowingly inflicting an act of war against dwarven ambassadors (or any ambassadors from an allied country) would see that emperor promptly opposed, deposed, and denounced. The elector counts and nobility under him would absolutely not support an unjustified war against an ally just because their sovereign called for one. Ulthuan, on the other hand, marched in near-lockstep, with only some of the Old World colonies and Asarnil rejecting the call.

Seriously, the amount of damage and death Ulthuan could have averted by just deposing Caledor II and, at worst, delivering his (and only his) head to the dwarves, is immense.
Uh, Ulthuan went to war because they thought the Dwarfs were making demands for stuff they hadn't done. Depending on your preferred canon, the Dwarfs burn down an Elven city before Caledor II even gets involved (also Asarnil wasn't born at the time of the War of Vengeance, you're likely thinking of Imladrik, Caledor's brother). Even in the quest, the Elves probably didn't see shaving the ambassdor and telling the dwarfs to fuck off, they didn't do anything as a big deal. And then the KA declared war on them. Caledor definitely bears a lot of responsibility, but it's not a fundamental failing that the Elves didn't depose him.

Actually, ignore my first comment, the Sundering was really only about 600 years now that I look at the dates.
The actual war, or the fighting? Because the fighting never really ended, but the first war ends with the Sundering as an event AFAIK, about 27 years after Malekith begins his attempt to conquer Ulthuan. Malekith and the druchii are driven out of Ulthuan and nothing happens for a full century, after which skirmishing and sea battles happen. The most notable of which kills Caledor I.

Yes if there was another D4 who outlawed them again I don't think that the Colleges would just passively lock their doors and take it. That emperor would die quickly likely of seemingly natural causes.
I'm sure they could have killed D4 too. It's just a bad idea because it doesn't actually solve the problem, and then the Colleges never become legal again, which is not a good ending for them.
 
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