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@Boney
Bit of an odd question, but i was sharing some random snippets from the quest with a friend (who, incidentally, has strong opinions about the Grey Order being the (collective) True Emperor and also has very serious concerns about their lack of oversight :p), and while discussing one of the few instances of oversight that they approve of (the section where mathilde researches dark rituals), the life of these librarians and any other members of the college that can't leave the grounds came up.
Any notion of the Grey Order being the "True Emperor" kind of dies when you consider that Dieter IV fucked with the Colleges as a personal hobby, Wilhelm III outright revoked their charter for 15 years and the Colleges didn't respond with assassination or coercion to get him to reinstate it, and that if they were ever caught doing so (and it is certainly plausible that they could be), it would be the end of the Grey Order.

In general though, the lack of assassinated or "dying young" Elector Counts puts paid to the idea. Wizards would be treated a lot better than they are if they actually influenced everything from the shadows.
 
Any notion of the Grey Order being the "True Emperor" kind of dies when you consider that Dieter IV fucked with the Colleges as a personal hobby, Wilhelm III outright revoked their charter for 15 years and the Colleges didn't respond with assassination or coercion to get him to reinstate it, and that if they were ever caught doing so (and it is certainly plausible that they could be), it would be the end of the Grey Order.

In general though, the lack of assassinated or "dying young" Elector Counts puts paid to the idea. Wizards would be treated a lot better than they are if they actually influenced everything from the shadows.
In general the empire and all feudal systems have far far less centralization of power then we take for granted in the modern day. In effect most people are acting without oversight because there just plain isn't nearly enough oversight to go around.
 
Wilhelm III outright revoked their charter for 15 years and the Colleges didn't respond with assassination or coercion to get him to reinstate it, and that if they were ever caught doing so (and it is certainly plausible that they could be), it would be the end of the Grey Order.
Dieter revoked the charter in 2415 IC after the Night of a Thousand Arcane Duels, Wilhelm III reinstated it after becoming Emperor in 2429 (and losing the Battle of Grootscher Marsh to Marienburg's mercenaries and Elven mage allies)
 
That is really appropriate for the College of Ulgu*. Can Mathilde tell the difference? If she can would she have had any chance of noticing without it having been pointed out to her?

*Also must make for some very confused apprentices if any have tried to draw a to scale map of the college.

If it was just the dimensional weirdness against a inert frictionless plane she might be able to, but the Grey College is thick with overlapping magical effects and naturally high levels of magical energies.
 
That is really appropriate for the College of Ulgu*. Can Mathilde tell the difference? If she can would she have had any chance of noticing without it having been pointed out to her?

*Also must make for some very confused apprentices if any have tried to draw a to scale map of the college.
in story cite to go along with the WoB:
A week of relaxed travel later, you make your way through Altdorf's most reputable disreputable neighbourhood and into the grounds of the Grey College, and despite actively looking for it you're still unable to spot the point where you transition from reality into the artificial plane that the College resides in.

Discussion question I thought of while searching: if you had to give an honest answer for which of the skaven clans contributed the most to the destruction of clan Mors in K8P (or which helped us conquer it the most, depending on how linked you think those questions are) which one would you give the credit?
 
Discussion question I thought of while searching: if you had to give an honest answer for which of the skaven clans contributed the most to the destruction of clan Mors in K8P (or which helped us conquer it the most, depending on how linked you think those questions are) which one would you give the credit?
Clan Eshin no question. They had a full on dragged out fight with them. Both armies out numbered our forces individually. Eshin and Mors fought each other until almost no one out of the thousands were left of either army.

I can just imagine if Eshin hadn't killed Mors army and if it had come back to attack us after we conquered their home.
 
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I mean, Eshin served as a fantastic scapegoat for all of Mathilde's harrassment leading up to the final battle and probably did quite a lot of their own, aside from being the ones to fight them to mutual annihilation at the end, but it's hard to know exactly what the sneaky assassin clan did or didn't do. Does skryre get credit for being the clan we used to accidentally kick off Cython and the rest of the chaos which gave us the opportunity to push through?
 
Does skryre get credit for being the clan we used to accidentally kick off Cython and the rest of the chaos which gave us the opportunity to push through?
Nope because if we put out the story (which we should never do in case it gets back to Cython*) it doesn't put them in good light no matter how you slice it. Either they are pawns or fools.

*That little tid bit might get us killed faster then Liber Mortus.
 
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In general the empire and all feudal systems have far far less centralization of power then we take for granted in the modern day. In effect most people are acting without oversight because there just plain isn't nearly enough oversight to go around.
If anything, that supports the idea that the Grey Order cannot and also will not act as some kind of unofficial, highest-level oversight for the Empire or its Elector Counts. Its job is fundamentally geared towards "enemies of the Empire", and not in the metaphorical sense. It focuses on illegal cults, Black Magisters, nobles going so corrupt as to be in clear and egregious violation of the law (to the detriment of the Empire on a significant scale), as well as stuff like the typical undead, greenskins, beastmen, etc..

The only reason Regimand went on a murder spree was because he had solid proof--corroborated by the Witch Hunters, no less--of specific people directly and willfully involved in a Lahmian conspiracy aimed at the Empire. That the Empress-Consort was on the list meant that she had to die because she was a traitor--and that the Witch Hunters didn't do it themselves was because they didn't want to take the political heat for the act, but the Grey Order is explicitly obligated to act regardless of the risks to themselves.

Even then, the way the Grey Order handles things like that is deniability and responsibility. Should a Grey Magister ever come to the conclusion that assassination is the least bad option, they take the matter upon themselves knowing that they have to take the secret with them to their graves, with no reward or thanks, because the leadership cannot be okay with it. And since performing such an assassination is a very risky endeavor (if you get caught, you will be thrown under the bus and you will be expected to assume full responsibility for it even as you burn at the stake) and no reward is expected, the only reason to do it is the heavy weight of duty and necessity.

When Boris asked Mathilde for help, before she agreed, she asked what he would do if she refused, and he basically answered a coup or civil war, acknowledging that it would be awful and costly. For Mathilde, the answer was clear: it was better for the Empire, for Kislev, and for the world if a civil war in Kislev were avoided even if it meant putting herself at massive risk to make the attempt. She can't let anyone other than Boris himself (who already knows) ever know that she did it, and the price paid was for the benefit of the Empire and Kislev rather than herself (or the Grey Order's). Algard and the other LMs have to not be okay with the act.

This is the ultimate form of Grey Order self-limitation: the very means it could use to exert control over the Empire that it is supposed to serve are utter taboo beyond a very personal, individual level; without reward or aid and with tremendous personal risk. No conspiracy can be created, no coordinated strategy or effort can be made, so even your fellow members of the Grey Order must not find out what you have done lest they be forced to take you to task. It is inherently self-limiting.

The Grey Order isn't oversight for bad leaders or unfriendly-to-the-Colleges leaders. It's oversight for illegal cults and actual traitors.
 
Any notion of the Grey Order being the "True Emperor" kind of dies when you consider that Dieter IV fucked with the Colleges as a personal hobby, Wilhelm III outright revoked their charter for 15 years and the Colleges didn't respond with assassination or coercion to get him to reinstate it, and that if they were ever caught doing so (and it is certainly plausible that they could be), it would be the end of the Grey Order.

In general though, the lack of assassinated or "dying young" Elector Counts puts paid to the idea. Wizards would be treated a lot better than they are if they actually influenced everything from the shadows.

On the other hand the Grey College was a younger institution then, with less experience, fewer wizards, less penetration of imperial institutions. We do not know how it would react to Dieter 2.0.... but what we do know is that Mathilde could probably kill most elector counts and the Emperor inside 6 months.
 
On the other hand the Grey College was a younger institution then, with less experience, fewer wizards, less penetration of imperial institutions. We do not know how it would react to Dieter 2.0.... but what we do know is that Mathilde could probably kill most elector counts and the Emperor inside 6 months.

Thing is, the Grey Order is too decentralised and too busy putting out other kinds of fires to actually secretly govern.

Most Grey Order LMs wouldn't want the responsibility if the Emperor fell on his knees and begged them to take it.
 
Thing is, the Grey Order is too decentralised and too busy putting out other kinds of fires to actually secretly govern.

Most Grey Order LMs wouldn't want the responsibility if the Emperor fell on his knees and begged them to take it.
Also as independent as the Lord magisters are having one control the emperor would inevitably draw the ire of another one or a group. So it would have to be a group effort. Which is harder to do and easier to disrupt.
 
I wonder what Teclis would think of the colleges he founded becoming the shadow government of the empire?
Who knows, because nothing of the sort has happened in any way?

The Colleges are honestly way too busy handling their real jobs to have any kind of ambitions of being a shadow government. The fact that at least half of the existing Grey LMs are dedicated towards just handling the tasks of running their own college, and at least two of them are quite old, should tell you about how little manpower they have to spare to do something as monumental as running the Empire in secret.

Like, the Grey Order has enough LMs to form the privy council for one province of the Empire, assuming it gave up on literally all of the institutional roles its LMs and Patriarch normally perform. Needless to say, they'd find the idea of secretly running the government of even a single province laughable.
 
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On the other hand the Grey College was a younger institution then, with less experience, fewer wizards, less penetration of imperial institutions. We do not know how it would react to Dieter 2.0.... but what we do know is that Mathilde could probably kill most elector counts and the Emperor inside 6 months.
Sure, killing the electors and the emperor would be easy, installing a puppet and keeping control of them is where the actual difficulty lies. It's rarely the murder that's the hard part of a coup.
 
Thing is, the Grey Order is too decentralised and too busy putting out other kinds of fires to actually secretly govern.

Most Grey Order LMs wouldn't want the responsibility if the Emperor fell on his knees and begged them to take it.

True, but the Emperor has already declared that all of them must die... methinks they will have common purpose

Sure, killing the electors and the emperor would be easy, installing a puppet and keeping control of them is where the actual difficulty lies. It's rarely the murder that's the hard part of a coup.

We were pretty close to it thanks to Ranald. If Mandred had not bee a wizard or if we had say chosen to train him in secret as a Grey well he would have had a decent chance at taking and keeping the seat and given the magnitude of the secret well he would not dare say no to his shadowy wizard backers.

I think that if you could somehow herd all the cats that make up the Grey Order in one direction it would be relatively easy to take and keep control of enough positions of power to control the ship of state.

Or if you say got the Greys and the Celestials together you might be able to do an even more advanced conspiracy where most of the pawns do not know they are pawns. It is what Chaos is trying to do with worse wizards and far lesser access and they came close a time or too.
 
Mostly because they don't mind failing. For Chaos attempting that sort of subversion is a risk free low cost action. So a less then 1% chance of success is very acceptable.

Well yeah, but Chaos also has the issue of all their people being insane and likely to fall to infighting at the drop of a hat. I'm betting the colleges could give at much better chance at hidden mageocracy. Really the only thing I could see standing in their way are gods, no way to estimate what their limits are other than that they exist. Magnus came almost too late after all and the danger he was up again was far more pervasive than wizard rule.
 
Yes if there was another D4 who outlawed them again I don't think that the Colleges would just passively lock their doors and take it. That emperor would die quickly likely of seemingly natural causes.
 
Grey wizards could never be the hidden true government because they'd have to duke it out with the Celestials over who gets to run the show. While the Golds would just steal the economy while cackling metalically. It's much cleaner if the colleges just stick to colleging.
 
Yes if there was another D4 who outlawed them again I don't think that the Colleges would just passively lock their doors and take it. That emperor would die quickly likely of seemingly natural causes.
If Roswita is still Elector in Stirland, I can see her legalizing wizards in Stirland only.
If Mandred is Elector, he'll follow along as well. Simply out of self preservation.

Which will have the Colleges legal where they exist, but illegal outside of most provinces.

Belegar and K8P would likely accept fugitives.

That'll be quite the mess.
 
If any College is well placed to play hidden master of the Empire, ironically it might be the Light wizards.

They have very good social (Power of Truth) and information generating (Inspiration) magic, they're the wizards 'officially' responsible for dealing with chaos subversion and so have a good reason to pop up anywhere and 'save' someone from corruption or possession, and they have experience as leaders in charge of their own choirs.

If Roswita is still Elector in Stirland, I can see her legalizing wizards in Stirland only.
If Mandred is Elector, he'll follow along as well. Simply out of self preservation.

Which will have the Colleges legal where they exist, but illegal outside of most provinces.

Belegar and K8P would likely accept fugitives.

That'll be quite the mess.

Marienberg would probably be more than happy to open their doors to refugee wizards in need of a new home as well....

They could still be some ex-Magisters in Marienberg who fled there after the Colleges were outlawed and never came back.
 
Yes if there was another D4 who outlawed them again I don't think that the Colleges would just passively lock their doors and take it. That emperor would die quickly likely of seemingly natural causes.
Except that the Colleges would absolutely just lock their doors and take it. For the Emperor who revoked their charter to then die of seemingly natural causes would naturally cast great suspicion on the Colleges for being responsible, which the Colleges would absolutely want to avoid. If anything, they'd send a mage to heal said emperor if it came down to it, just to make it abundantly clear that they are not the type to violate their founding document even when it benefits them.

It's hard to overstate how sacrosanct the Colleges view the Empire's trust in them. They actively promote for their leadership roles people who thoroughly prove not just skill, power, and ability, but also loyalty and trustworthiness when it comes to the laws and ideals of the Empire.

As bad as Dieter IV was, he was only arguably guilty of treason when he accepted a bribe from Marienburg to give it independence. From the Empire's standpoint, he was not a traitor or an enemy of the Empire, and so the Colleges did not kill him.
 
Except that the Colleges would absolutely just lock their doors and take it. For the Emperor who revoked their charter to then die of seemingly natural causes would naturally cast great suspicion on the Colleges for being responsible, which the Colleges would absolutely want to avoid. If anything, they'd send a mage to heal said emperor if it came down to it, just to make it abundantly clear that they are not the type to violate their founding document even when it benefits them.

It's hard to overstate how sacrosanct the Colleges view the Empire's trust in them. They actively promote for their leadership roles people who thoroughly prove not just skill, power, and ability, but also loyalty and trustworthiness when it comes to the laws and ideals of the Empire.

As bad as Dieter IV was, he was only arguably guilty of treason when he accepted a bribe from Marienburg to give it independence. From the Empire's standpoint, he was not a traitor or an enemy of the Empire, and so the Colleges did not kill him.

I'm pretty sure you are overstating this by a wide margin. Remember Mathilde Weber, the shadowmancer taken in as an orphan and indoctrinated as much as any of the Eight Colleges have having to remind herself to lie and put the Empire over the Grey Order? Remember that conversation we had with Magister Horstman about superstitious idiots, why we prefer dwarfs and how he basically nodded and agreed?
 
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