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I'm sorry Garlak, but your posts are too long and meandering for me to meaningfully respond to all it.

While I do agree that a hypothetical magocracy would have a lot of potential troubles do deal with, the point I was trying to get at in my own post was that you probably wouldn't get a magocracy in the first place, and that as such speculating on this general topic is really jumping the gun.

The eggs haven't even hatched yet but you're already telling me how the roosters ruling the farm will end in disaster.
 
Replace religiosity with any other strongly-felt identifier or political affiliation. Or substitute religious kinship with ambition or politics; "Well, I'm not an Ulrican, but the Ulrican Emperor is doing things I agree with a lot/disagree with a lot so..."

It also spoke to the divisions between the Colleges, and even within the Colleges, because they are a bunch of groups and also a bunch of weirdos too.

And I don't think the wizards could take over the Empire, nor took it for a moral statement in and of itself. Rather I was thinking about the motivations of people; what they might think would be moral, or might argue would be moral, or how they might feel or act upon one thing or another. And the risks and rewards and costs and payoffs of loyalty and devotion and such.


I hadn't been thinking about a magocracy at all. Personally, I'd probably be against it not because of the risks of possession or blowing up, but because of the concentration of power. Or to put it another way, when the topic of wizard nobles was brought up long ago, some people were for it because they were thinking "Well, we know wizards are good and the Colleges are good at creating good people, right? So we would be good at being nobles." whereas I looked at it from the viewpoint of; "Don't think of it as 'wizards with nobility', think of it instead as 'nobles with magic powers'. Don't ask yourself whether you'd trust Mathild with rulership of Cactus Fief or Stirland or Margravehood. Ask yourself if you'd trust the Von Whatevers or McSo-and-So's with Ulgu. Do you trust nobles, the aristocracy, with magic? Do others trust nobles with magic? Do the common folk, or the burghers, want to be ruled by people with powers they don't have and don't understand very well?"

And because it can't pass on through family lines as easily, thus meaning there'd be uncertainty as to just who would rule at any given time; and which would thus have to be solved by some set of rules or traditions, probably involving some form of "Who has the biggest boom?" or "Who can rally the most people to support their bid for Chancellor/Emperor/Noble/etc?" Which means you're back to the question of "Who should rule? How do we decide who rules?" and thus trying to find an answer for that. I predict it probably devolving into power struggles of some sort over the generations, except this time by people with magic powers. Not a great time for people. Not because the prospective rulers are at risk of possession or blowing up (though that isn't great either) but because their noble class are full of people with supernatural powers and ambition; not only can they not enter that class or match them in any way, it also means that anybody with great ambition or great evil might cause a lot of damage because they have a lot of magic too.

It could function well if the culture and mores are static-y or relaxed-y. If everybody is content to be ruled because the rulers are chill and not doing much. The system functions because the system is allowed to function and the people don't squabble much, basically. But. If that is the case, then... couldn't that success also be the case for any other type of governmental system? The success would be down to the chill nature of the people involved, or the machine of state that underlaid the wizard nobles jockeying for power, rather than due to Rule-By-Biggest-Wizard-Staff, no? In which case, why pick magocracy over aristocracy or oligarchy or republicanism or theocracy?

And also because taking over a government from the shadows and with skulduggery is a bad thing for just and righteous rulership and governance in general. And also because even if the first generation of shadow rulers were good because they took over for a good reason... the succeeding generations would not be like that; they would not be out to seize power from a corrupt or evil ruler, they would be out to maintain power. ((And you'd also have an example set of "If you don't like your rulers... then take over and rule from the shadows." Great precedent for stability and trust there.))

Theocracy or rule by priesthood might be better compared to magocrazy; at least you can argue that the Gods are worshipped and shared by all the peoples of a given city or a given region or a given culture or ethnic group. Which means that the people would have a point of similarity with their rulers; they might not have supernatural powers like them, but at least they'd know that they were connected to the same Gods that they themselves worship, which means they'd know their rulers wouldn't be totally out there in terms of what values they'd hold and what incentives or goals they might have.

I don't think it would be the best. But it might be better than magocracy. (Though, given I went "In a magocracy, it might come down to 'what is the underlying system and culture of the rulers and the ruled?'" anyway, I guess the same goes for theocracy too. Just, a theocracy is more connected to the culture of the people, because religion is heavily part of culture/vice-versa, so... so I guess it's not all 'If the people or system is good, it works'. Though some combinations of people and systems are better than others, and some people and systems are better than others, or more functional. Or circumstances account for a lot. Circumstances like underwhat circumstances a government comes to be. Like whether it's a dramatic war against an external foe, or an inside coup, or etc.)
I think the Colleges produce reliable, dutiful, and loyal people because that's literally what they're designed to do. And part of that is by placing the "responsibility" over "opportunity" in every teaching and rule and value.

The Colleges could produce more powerful wizards in greater numbers if it was willing to compromise on how highly it values loyalty, reliability, responsibility, and duty. It does not, because the Colleges view the responsible use of magic as far more important than the powerful use of magic.

We see this in the mentality of basically every College wizard we come across. Their personal ambitions either align with or do not conflict with their responsibilities, duties, and rules/laws. In any edge cases, they take significant measures to smooth over potential conflicts--Gretel enjoys a much more materially wealthy lifestyle than Amethyst wizards normally do because she works in service of the Karaz Ankor (whom are famous for being trustworthy, honorable, and reliable) well outside the Empire's borders (and thus doesn't risk tarnishing the reputation of the Amethyst Order), and can justify it as a useful method to impress the people of the Border Princes through peaceful means rather than force or magic.

Mathilde is way more wealthy than you'd expect from a Grey Wizard under the Vow of Poverty, but she balances it by putting that wealth to use for the benefit of the Empire in tangible ways related to her duties, combined with a VERY active career in service to the Empire and its allies such that it's easy to argue that she doesn't have time to try any funny business. The main vehicle for her wealth, the EIC, is very obviously a staunch supporter of Stirland and its very important efforts to pacify and secure Sylvania and the Karaz Ankor's efforts to support Karak Eight Peaks and other karaks in the region.

The leader of the most wealthy of the Colleges personally led and coordinated the efforts of the Battle Wizards in a campaign against the vampires of Sylvania, and every effort we've seen from them has made them look like a research and scientific institution with magic than some wealthy juggernaut bringing the Empire under its thumb through money.

Every opportunity that comes from being a wizard of the Colleges also comes with equally heavy (or even heavier) responsibilities and duties, not to mention risks.

It will definitely be interesting to see how Manfred's life unfolds. How will the Colleges approach a situation in which an Elector Count-to-be will also become a wizard? My guess is that they'll have to find a path that involves teaching the values of the Colleges without denying the responsibilities and opportunities of such high-level leadership, but also making sure not to even appear like they're treating it like an opportunity to exert influence over Reikland using Mandred.
 
Manfred still has a fair chance at being Emperor. Yes the Sigmars don't like magic, but there are also a lot of political reasons why they want to capital right where it is. They might vote for an ogre if that's what it took.
 
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Manfred still has a fair chance at being Emperor. Yes the Sigmars don't like magic, but there are also a lot of political reasons why they want to capital right where it is. They might vote for an ogre if that's what it took.

Also, Sigmarites may be a huge advantage, but they are not, strictly speaking, necessary for the election, assuming a majority or even supermajority is enough.
 
Mathilde is way more wealthy than you'd expect from a Grey Wizard under the Vow of Poverty, but she balances it by putting that wealth to use for the benefit of the Empire in tangible ways related to her duties, combined with a VERY active career in service to the Empire and its allies such that it's easy to argue that she doesn't have time to try any funny business. The main vehicle for her wealth, the EIC, is very obviously a staunch supporter of Stirland and its very important efforts to pacify and secure Sylvania and the Karaz Ankor's efforts to support Karak Eight Peaks and other karaks in the region.

I think you are mischaracterizing the Waystone project here, the point is not to help 'the Empire and its allies', it is to make the world a better place, to stop the spread of Chaos, restful dead and healthy children. She is entirely willing to help a polity that has recently been at war with part of the Empire (Laurelorn) claim most of the land that was until recently considered part of an imperial province if it gets her closer to that goal. Her alignment with the Empire as a political institution as opposed to her personal vision of a better world has never been tested as it was never asked of her to choose one over the other.

However we did recently come close. When we asked the GM is the Emperor or the Chancellor would have a problem with Mathilde killing Boris the reply was not 'no', it was 'if they knew they would have to have a problem with it' so we did not tell them. Now sure, there are all sorts of post hoc justifications for why the Grey Order in general would second that kind of power to its Lords Magister, communication times, the fact that they are the diplomat wizards, but really it comes down to is:

The Grey Order canonically and explicitly rejects the control of any central authority.

"The only non-Collegiate authority the Grey Order is theoretically answerable to is the emperor, but in effect this is not as clear cut as it would seem ... An Emperor could be forced to abdicate, or worse, may fall to the seductions of Chaos and would then stop being an ally and become a potential enemy to the Empire. It was deemed unwise to let the full truth of the Order's abilities and activities get into the hands of a potential enemy; so the Emperor, the Electors, the religious authorities, the Merchants' Guilds, and burgomeisters of the Empire know little or nothing of the clandestine activities undertaken by the Shadowmancers right beneath their noses."

The Grey Order was formed shortly after the end of a thousand years of civil war, which was also an era where state policy was to murder all magic users. At one point in the time since, central authority dictated that the Colleges of Magic should be disbanded, which would also have resulted in all its members being executed. So it hasn't got a lot of institutional trust in central authority.

Does not exactly sound like duty over all does it?
 
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Also, Sigmarites may be a huge advantage, but they are not, strictly speaking, necessary for the election, assuming a majority or even supermajority is enough.
It's stated in the Prince of Altdorf novella that you need 10 of 15 votes to win the election.

If he doesn't have the Sigmarites- and I doubt he'll be able to get them onboard Wizard Emperor- and he definitely won't have Middenland and the Ar-Ulric, then he'd need to win every single other Elector in the vote to get to 10.
 
When both Mathilde and Heidi reacted to Mandred turning out to have magic with "well there is no way he'll be emperor now," I think it is worth taking them at their word. No, the cult of Sigmar is not going to suck it up to keep the capital where it is. Yes it is technically possible to win without them, but the sigmarite block is probably more likely to pick their next favorite candidate that the cult of sigmat IS willing to vote for rather than try to ram through Mandred anyway.
 
Yes it is technically possible to win without them, but the sigmarite block is probably more likely to pick their next favorite candidate that the cult of sigmat IS willing to vote for rather than try to ram through Mandred anyway.
Empress Roswita van Hal, first of her name, adored by Sigmarites and Battlewizards alike. Heck, we'd probably persuade Heidi to persuade Mandred to switch his vote to her if he couldn't win.
 
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When both Mathilde and Heidi reacted to Mandred turning out to have magic with "well there is no way he'll be emperor now," I think it is worth taking them at their word. No, the cult of Sigmar is not going to suck it up to keep the capital where it is. Yes it is technically possible to win without them, but the sigmarite block is probably more likely to pick their next favorite candidate that the cult of sigmat IS willing to vote for rather than try to ram through Mandred anyway.
I'm similarly inclined to think Mandred won't make it to Emperor. Not in the current political climate, and certainly not while he's still a kid.

Maaaaybe in the future, if wizards continue doing lots of things that make the overall fear surrounding them lesser, or maybe if Mandred shows himself to be really competent, he could become Emperor. But neither of those things are guaranteed, and he might not even want to become Emperor - that much power also comes with a lot of responsibility and oversight both.

As Mathilde told Heidi, staying the Prince of Reikland might give Mandred more room for doing things. He would be in a position of power, but not so much that everything would hinge upon him. He could do a lot of good for not just Reikland, but also the Colleges and Ranald without needing Sigmarites breathing down his neck.

Moving that capital to Stirland does seem like it would do weird things to the average staffing levels there.
Certainly, it would increase the expected standards of competence in Stirland when it comes to leadership.
 
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Moving that capital to Stirland does seem like it would do weird things to the average staffing levels there.
I think the matter of the capital would be up in the air.

From Magnus to Dieter IV the Emperor mainly ruled from Nuln, but still kept control of the old Imperial Palace in Altdorf that dates back to Sigmar. Then Grom sacked Nuln and Dieter fled to Altdorf, then Altdorf became the capital when Wilhelm III became Emperor. Now Nuln is the capital of Wissenland.

It wouldn't be the most unlikely thing for the 'official capital' to remain Altdorf.

Though then again, if Roswita wins she probably wouldn't want to leave Sylvania alone for as long as it would be if she's ruling from Altdorf...
 
I think the matter of the capital would be up in the air.

From Magnus to Dieter IV the Emperor mainly ruled from Nuln, but still kept control of the old Imperial Palace in Altdorf that dates back to Sigmar. Then Grom sacked Nuln and Dieter fled to Altdorf, then Altdorf became the capital when Wilhelm III became Emperor. Now Nuln is the capital of Wissenland.

It wouldn't be the most unlikely thing for the 'official capital' to remain Altdorf.

Though then again, if Roswita wins she probably wouldn't want to leave Sylvania alone for as long as it would be if she's ruling from Altdorf...

I don't think the claims that the Imperial Palace dates back to Sigmar are necessarily reliable.

The additional complexity is that Altdorf is an imperial city-state, a different province in personal union with Reikland as well as the de facto capital of Reikland and the current de jure capital of the Empire.

It would technically possible to separate Altdorf from the Reikland and be compatible with precedent, given the history of the Imperial government interfering in the succession of the provinces. The Prince of Altdorf can be a different person to the Elector Count of the Reikland, just as they were before they came into personal union.
 
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Y'all, the Grey Order barely wants to run the Grey Order. :V
It does seem that a lot of the Grey Orders traditional duties --- spies, diplomats, wandering troubleshooters, and even the shenanigans Mathilde herself gets up to --- involve being either transitory or placed at the outskirts. Which seems kinda thematic, when viewed that way.

...I wonder what the odds are of the Grey College eventually have a leadership that is just in an eternal state of fobbing of the mantle on one another after a few years (because they do realize someone has to do it,) so they can get to their real passion. Maybe that's part of why Ranaldism is big in the Grey College: "Man, this worldly power thing sucks, I wanna go off and have someone else do it."
 
It does seem that a lot of the Grey Orders traditional duties --- spies, diplomats, wandering troubleshooters, and even the shenanigans Mathilde herself gets up to --- involve being either transitory or placed at the outskirts. Which seems kinda thematic, when viewed that way.

...I wonder what the odds are of the Grey College eventually have a leadership that is just in an eternal state of fobbing of the mantle on one another after a few years (because they do realize someone has to do it,) so they can get to their real passion. Maybe that's part of why Ranaldism is big in the Grey College: "Man, this worldly power thing sucks, I wanna go off and have someone else do it."

Ranaldism is very much not opposed to having worldly power - quite the opposite - it's very much focused on the Ranaldite gaining worldly wealth and power from/over other people. That's what unites the four aspects, they're about the desire to acquire power, whether that's political (Protector), social (Deceiver), or monetary (Night Prowler or Gambler). That power can be because you're a demagogue, conman, thief, or simply lucky at cards, but what unites them is the desire to take power (usually from other people, the taking part is key). Ranald is a god of wanting what isn't yours.
 
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I think the Colleges produce reliable, dutiful, and loyal people because that's literally what they're designed to do. And part of that is by placing the "responsibility" over "opportunity" in every teaching and rule and value.

The Colleges could produce more powerful wizards in greater numbers if it was willing to compromise on how highly it values loyalty, reliability, responsibility, and duty. It does not, because the Colleges view the responsible use of magic as far more important than the powerful use of magic.

We see this in the mentality of basically every College wizard we come across. Their personal ambitions either align with or do not conflict with their responsibilities, duties, and rules/laws. In any edge cases, they take significant measures to smooth over potential conflicts--Gretel enjoys a much more materially wealthy lifestyle than Amethyst wizards normally do because she works in service of the Karaz Ankor (whom are famous for being trustworthy, honorable, and reliable) well outside the Empire's borders (and thus doesn't risk tarnishing the reputation of the Amethyst Order), and can justify it as a useful method to impress the people of the Border Princes through peaceful means rather than force or magic.

Mathilde is way more wealthy than you'd expect from a Grey Wizard under the Vow of Poverty, but she balances it by putting that wealth to use for the benefit of the Empire in tangible ways related to her duties, combined with a VERY active career in service to the Empire and its allies such that it's easy to argue that she doesn't have time to try any funny business. The main vehicle for her wealth, the EIC, is very obviously a staunch supporter of Stirland and its very important efforts to pacify and secure Sylvania and the Karaz Ankor's efforts to support Karak Eight Peaks and other karaks in the region.

The leader of the most wealthy of the Colleges personally led and coordinated the efforts of the Battle Wizards in a campaign against the vampires of Sylvania, and every effort we've seen from them has made them look like a research and scientific institution with magic than some wealthy juggernaut bringing the Empire under its thumb through money.

Every opportunity that comes from being a wizard of the Colleges also comes with equally heavy (or even heavier) responsibilities and duties, not to mention risks.

It will definitely be interesting to see how Manfred's life unfolds. How will the Colleges approach a situation in which an Elector Count-to-be will also become a wizard? My guess is that they'll have to find a path that involves teaching the values of the Colleges without denying the responsibilities and opportunities of such high-level leadership, but also making sure not to even appear like they're treating it like an opportunity to exert influence over Reikland using Mandred.

Yeah, the Colleges have a pretty story. So does the Imperial aristocracy. In many ways, it's the same story. There's a special group of people, who are raised in an environment that provides them with extraordinary skills and teaches them about responsibility and duty. These "best ones" are clearly wiser and more virtuous than ordinary people.

Remember the Night of a Thousand Arcane Duels? That time when the Colleges decided to have a giant battle royale in the middle of Altdorf? Apparently all of that wisdom and virtue was taking a vacation.

Reliable, dutiful, loyal. Are we talking about Alric here? The man who was and might yet again be the head of the Light Order? Yes, he is clearly a perfect example of a leader who places the needs of the Empire above his own personal ambition. It's a good thing he was brought up in the Colleges. Without that education, he might be an ambitious bastard who uses his apprentices to advance his own career.

Don't get me wrong, there are wizards who believe that with great power comes great responsibility. They may even be a majority. But wizards are people, and people are often selfish bastards. We're also fond of finding elaborate justifications for being selfish bastards.

I'm sure that during the Time of the Three Emperors, all of the different claimants had stories about how they were reliable, dutiful, loyal children of the Empire. They told themselves that it was their rivals who were the self-serving warlords, while they were only acting out of sad necessity. Somewhat like the Colleges, when they were burning down Altdorf.

Mathilde doesn't really go into it, but the Night of a Thousand Arcane Duels reflects very badly on the Colleges. They clearly had some serious rivalries buried beneath the surface, and when those rivalries came out most of them didn't give a damn about what might happen to the little people who got caught in the middle.

If you ignore the Night, and you ignore the existence of Black Magisters, and you ignore any wizards (Alric) who contradict the pretty story, then it's a great story. Propaganda is often simple and lovely, while reality is unpleasant and complicated.

Of course the Colleges want to exert influence over Reikland! Of course they're going to use Mandred to pursue their own agenda! This isn't even bad, it's just politicians advancing the interests of their constituents. But we shouldn't pretend that the Colleges are some noble paragons of virtue, like Magnus the Pious come again. They're playing the game, just like everyone else.

The Grey College is an organization of paranoid, secretive schemers who take pride in doing whatever the hell they want. Both Regimand and Mathilde have murdered royalty without the benefit of trial. In Mathilde's case, Vladimir wasn't involved with any vampire or Chaos conspiracies. She just didn't think he was good at his job, so she killed him.

You could certainly say that murdering a friendly head of state with magic is not a responsible use of magic. However, the Grey College's motto is not "Do the right thing". Their motto is "Don't get caught". For all we know, there are any number of Grey Magisters who horribly abuse their power, but they're either good at covering it up, or the College finds out, murders them, and then covers it up.
 
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Yeah, the Colleges have a pretty story. So does the Imperial aristocracy. In many ways, it's the same story. There's a special group of people, who are raised in an environment that provides them with extraordinary skills and teaches them about responsibility and duty. These "best ones" are clearly wiser and more virtuous than ordinary people.

Remember the Night of a Thousand Arcane Duels? That time when the Colleges decided to have a giant battle royale in the middle of Altdorf? Apparently all of that wisdom and virtue was taking a vacation.

Reliable, dutiful, loyal. Are we talking about Alric here? The man who was and might yet again be the head of the Light Order? Yes, he is clearly a perfect example of a leader who places the needs of the Empire above his own personal ambition. It's a good thing he was brought up in the Colleges. Without that education, he might be an ambitious bastard who uses his apprentices to advance his own career.

Don't get me wrong, there are wizards who believe that with great power comes great responsibility. They may even be a majority. But wizards are people, and people are often selfish bastards. We're also fond of finding elaborate justifications for being selfish bastards.

I'm sure that during the Time of the Three Emperors, all of the different claimants had stories about how they were reliable, dutiful, loyal children of the Empire. They told themselves that it was their rivals who were the self-serving warlords, while they were only acting out of sad necessity. Somewhat like the Colleges, when they were burning down Altdorf.

Mathilde doesn't really go into it, but the Night of a Thousand Arcane Duels reflects very badly on the Colleges. They clearly had some serious rivalries buried beneath the surface, and when those rivalries came out most of them didn't give a damn about what might happen to the little people who got caught in the middle.

If you ignore the Night, and you ignore the existence of Black Magisters, and you ignore any wizards (Alric) who contradict the pretty story, then it's a great story. Propaganda is often simple and lovely, while reality is unpleasant and complicated.

Of course the Colleges want to exert influence over Reikland! Of course they're going to use Mandred to pursue their own agenda! This isn't even bad, it's just politicians advancing the interests of their constituents. But we shouldn't pretend that the Colleges are some noble paragons of virtue, like Magnus the Pious come again. They're playing the game, just like everyone else.

The Grey College is an organization of paranoid, secretive schemers who take pride in doing whatever the hell they want. Both Regimand and Mathilde have murdered royalty without the benefit of trial. In Mathilde's case, Boris wasn't involved with any vampire or Chaos conspiracies. She just didn't think he was good at his job, so she killed him.

You could certainly say that murdering a friendly head of state with magic is not a responsible use of magic. However, the Grey College's motto is not "Do the right thing". Their motto is "Don't get caught". For all we know, there are any number of Grey Magisters who horribly abuse their power, but they're either good at covering it up, or the College finds out, murders them, and then covers it up.
Except that it's not propaganda, it's literally what we see from the inside, from someone of high rank in the Colleges who works with a lot of people from lots of Colleges, including those of high rank.

You also contradict yourself: Grey Magisters who horribly abuse their power get murdered by the Grey Order. While the truth of the matter might stay classified, the fact of the matter is that the Grey Order considers the discovery, tracking, and elimination of Black Magisters to be one of its most important duties.

The Grey Order also goes to significant lengths to keep track of its wizards and keep tabs on their general activities. Murders leave a trail, and when those murders line up with specific wizards' presence, investigations ensue. We see this kind of oversight with the dark rituals--they keep close track of who knows what, and when, and if anything like the dark rituals that are shared are employed in the future, they will need to know where the people that were taught those rituals were at the time.

And you're also really twisting events to look at things in the most negative way possible. Regimand murdered a proven traitor and vampiric conspiracist after the Witch Hunters had gathered ironclad proof of her guilt. The only reason the Colleges performed the deed was because the head religious and legal authorities asked the Grey Order to do it instead. Similarly, with the late-Tzar, Mathilde was asked to by the Prince specifically because the world was at stake and because he would launch a civil war or coup if she didn't do it, and she'd seen first-hand how badly the late-Tzar's rule was impacting Kislev from a variety of perspectives (and first-hand).

She didn't kill him because he wasn't good at his job. She killed him because he was in a position of enormous responsibility and he was very stubbornly, negligently, and complacently refusing to do his job, and all of the alternatives were far worse for everyone--if she didn't do it, far more people would die for a fact. Even then, the act is something that they Grey Order would not and cannot sanction. Mathilde will take that secret to her grave and should it ever come out, she will fully be expected to take all the blame and die for it. The Grey Order does not willfully turn a blind eye to this sort of thing, so only those who really prove their character are taught the spells necessary to be that kind of potentially exceptional assassin.

The motto of the Grey Order is very much "do the right thing, or at least the least bad thing when necessary". "Don't get caught" is not their motto, because as Mathilde's master taught her, for Grey Wizards doing what they do best, there very well may come a time when slitting throats of the enemies of the Empire results in you having to sell your life at the highest cost possible to the enemy. Sometimes getting caught happens, and so every throat you slit is a cost-benefit calculation. Are you selling your life at a high enough price?

Mathilde has assassinated a shitload of greenskins, skaven, Chaos cultists, and necromancers. She has assassinated one noble and one member of royalty, the first of whom was thoroughly proven to be guilty of capital crimes against the Empire (and the second of whom I already went into above). Assassination is reserved for capital crimes; otherwise, you get stuff like "sneak into their home and get evidence of potential crimes, and we'll see how serious it is" or "infiltrate this group and see if they're up to no good". Since this is Warhammer Fantasy, there are a lot more kinds of capital crimes than there could be IRL.
 
You could certainly say that murdering a friendly head of state with magic is not a responsible use of magic. However, the Grey College's motto is not "Do the right thing". Their motto is "Don't get caught". For all we know, there are any number of Grey Magisters who horribly abuse their power, but they're either good at covering it up, or the College finds out, murders them, and then covers it up.

Or that due to the many impediments to information flow in the setting, they don't even need to do much to cover it up, no one who matters would ever get any clear evidence about it anyway.

It's not as if there aren't lots of other potential reasons that important people could randomly die.

And you're also really twisting events to look at things in the most negative way possible. Regimand murdered a proven traitor and vampiric conspiracist after the Witch Hunters had gathered ironclad proof of her guilt. The only reason the Colleges performed the deed was because the head religious and legal authorities asked the Grey Order to do it instead.

Just on this. I may have missed it, but I don't recall that there was any actual evidence of the Empresses' guilt. Just strong suspicion. I think it was described like this:

So if a Journeyman calls for Wizard Daddy because they saw a zombie and got scared, that would be one thing. If they, say, stumbles across a massive Empire-wide conspiracy that has ensnared Grey Magisters and possibly even the Empress, then crying for help is accepted because that's what a full Magister would still be doing in that situation.

And this:

"I've wondered about that, since then. The Templars could have acted themselves. The only reason they wouldn't have done so directly..."

"Was one little name on the list. No wonder the Lahmians had so much influence, when they could whisper into the Emperor's ear at night. The Templars are almost never shy about getting their hands dirty, but when the succession of Sigmar's Empire is at stake..." He shakes his head. "Even if they were willing to act, it would cost so much of the influence of the Cult of Sigmar. Influence they've spent generations accumulating."

"So they find themselves wondering if they're loyal to the Empire, or the Emperor, or the Church. And wondering how many of their fellows would share their answer." You smile sadly. "But Abelhelm knew one group that had the answer set in stone for them. 'The first obedience of every Magister must be to the ideals and laws of Sigmar's Holy Empire'..."

This doesn't say there was ironclad proof. Or any proof. Just that the Empresses' name was on the list we gave them and this was blamed as the reason for why the Lahmians were so influential. It doesn't mean it was actually the reason.

Hell, for all we know Ranald used the power we got from Mork to frame the Empress (or exaggerate her culpability/involvement) as part of manoeuvring Heidi onto the throne.

He probably didn't, but it's not as if there are many checks and balances in operation here - particularly in the context where there are actors who we know can use absolute effects like the Father, Deceiver or the Protector sides of the Coin to influence what people believe.
 
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This doesn't say there was ironclad proof. Or any proof. Just that the Empresses' name was on the list we gave them and this was blamed as the reason for why the Lahmians were so influential. It doesn't mean it was actually the reason.

Hell, for all we know Ranald used the power we got from Mork to frame the Empress as part of manoeuvring Heidi onto the throne.

He probably didn't, but it's not as if there are many checks and balances in operation here - particularly in the context where there are actors who we know can use absolute effects like the Father, Deceiver or the Protector sides of the Coin to influence events.
What we would consider ironclad proof from a modern perspective is literally unobtainable in this setting. Science hasn't advanced enough for the physical avenues and magic is much better at obscuring the truth than revealing it.
 
What we would consider ironclad proof from a modern perspective is literally unobtainable in this setting. Science hasn't advanced enough for the physical avenues and magic is much better at obscuring the truth than revealing it.

Well, in general I agree with you, but I think there are ways of restricting people to only tell the truth as they believe it. That doesn't help with people being mistaken or memory edited, but in terms of confessions or disclaimers of about personal culpability it's better than we can do in reality.
 
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