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I'm with DragonParadox on this one. The Empire was split into at least three parts and had remained that way for at least a few centuries - I'd call that a spectacular failure of its own, a failure of its systems and interests. The Empire's own divided loyalties strangled it until Magnus came along.

And if we're comparing things to the disaster of the Druchii, we could equally point to the Chaos Dwarves.

The failure of the Asur is in no way unique - I think one would struggle to find any faction in the world without their own bugbears. It's just that they basically ruled the world at one point and that magnifies the scale of their fuck-ups.
 
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To be fair, the Sundering lasted even longer than the Time of Three Emperors.

True, but it was a smaller proportion of the existence of the lifespan of the state, though of course one could argue that the Elven Civil war continues to this day and Phoenix King is still not the ruler of the same state as the pre-Sundering elven empire. Outside of the Land of Chill though such an idea would be rather poorly received.

This is all details though, the point as @Parabola says above is that the more power you have the worse the consequences of your bad decisions, to put it another way when a superpower shits the bed there is a lot more organic fertilizer to go around. :V
 
Boney has compared the fractiousness of Ulthuan and the Empire before. That Ulthuan has (mostly) stayed together for seven millennia despite having nobility that are even more fractious than the Empire's says a lot about the stability of its systems.

It's true that Ulthuan greatly exceeds the Empire in a number of fields, but one of those fields is the level of internal discord and backbiting and refusing to cooperate for anything short of an existential threat.
 
True, but it was a smaller proportion of the existence of the lifespan of the state, though of course one could argue that the Elven Civil war continues to this day and Phoenix King is still not the ruler of the same state as the pre-Sundering elven empire. Outside of the Land of Chill though such an idea would be rather poorly received.

This is all details though, the point as @Parabola says above is that the more power you have the worse the consequences of your bad decisions, to put it another way when a superpower shits the bed there is a lot more organic fertilizer to go around. :V
Actually, ignore my first comment, the Sundering was really only about 600 years now that I look at the dates.
 
Stone is associated with Hysh, right? I wonder if something like a Light tributary would be possible. The thematic resonances are all there to make it possible.
Out of universe, definitely. Because the Light Order are the Freemasons.
In-universe, it depends on where you're pulling from.
In-quest, there's at least enough of a connection for a debate to take place:
Even Khazalid has not proven entirely immune to this, the oft-used participle Gor is suspiciously close in sound and meaning to Ghur, and you know from previous work with Runesmiths that the other names are known to them. From there you move on to basic fundamentals of the nature of the Winds, and here too there is general agreement, save for a brief detour into a debate about the relationship between stone and Hysh.
 
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@Boney
Bit of an odd question, but i was sharing some random snippets from the quest with a friend (who, incidentally, has strong opinions about the Grey Order being the (collective) True Emperor and also has very serious concerns about their lack of oversight :p), and while discussing one of the few instances of oversight that they approve of (the section where mathilde researches dark rituals), the life of these librarians and any other members of the college that can't leave the grounds came up.

an extremely vetted librarian of the Grey Order whose job it is to be able to point in the right direction when someone has your kinds of questions, and the price they pay for that ability is that they are never to leave the grounds of the Grey College again, because the knowledge inside their head could catapult any petty Magus or Magicker into being a threat to the entire Empire.

So...how big is the grey college, specifically the part(s) that they are confined to?
-Are they confined to the liminal realm portion, or are there any real world buildings that count as the grounds of the college?
-Are there restaurants?
-Do they have apartments with kitchen(ette)s?
-Are they stuck in dorms?
-Are there non-wizard employees whose job is to do grocery and grubhub runs?
-Can they have visitors?
-Are they allowed to have families/kids???
-Do they ever see natural sunlight? Either from the above 'are there non-liminal-realm buildings that count as the grounds' or...can they do windows in the liminal realm? Surely not, but can they?
 
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An idea has popped into my head. I don't think it's a very good idea, but nevertheless:
In the sidestory it is said that one of the Iz team smuggled their spouse along with them, and also that most of the Iz team is done for:
[-] Iz

After an early embarrassment with one of their team having smuggled their spouse along with them, Iz have spent all their time on this world creating servitors for Resistant/Obedient-ImportedTemplate-0 'Slann', but in doing so have produced some truly excellent strains. Iz-1 is almost as skilled as They think They are, and Iz-2 is even more so, and surely they are even now trying to restore access to the Deific Interfaces that can command the Slann and their servants. Perhaps this is the most straightforward way to avert disaster.

+ Will prevent the ascension of the traitor Iz-1 as the first Daemon Prince of this world.
+ Will allow a complete recovery of Iz-DI2 'Sotek', instead of merely fragments of it.
+ Will save much of the Iz team, who are otherwise doomed.
? There may be a chance to restore at least some access to the Slann DIP.
A common guess was that this spouse is Rigg, and it may well be, but here's a wild idea: could this spouse be The Ancient Widow?

The Ancient Widow is kind of an odd title for a Goddess, and as far as I know no one ever gave a theory as to who The Widow's husband is supposed to be. The Widow being the spouse mentioned in the sidestory could maybe kind of make sense, as that would make Her both ancient and a widow, and it would make both of those attributes notable enough to warrant making up Her title: She is truly ancient (an Old One, or Her deific interface or whatever) and the Widow of one of the Iz team members (and She is defined as a spouse (and now as a Widow) in contrast to other Gods that are (the Deific interfaces of?) Old Ones, because They were team members and She wasn't). Oh and also Rigg is apparently the mother of Kalith, and Halétha is worshipped in Kislev under the name Kalita.

Now, this doesn't really line up very will with what Ljiljana told us about the Kislev pantheon and Ranald, and I don't really see how the mother of the amazons could end up being the spirit of Kislev, so this is probably all just a coincidence.
 
To play devil's advocate, "There is no such thing as innocence, only varying degrees of guilt." is probably not a motto justifying the inquisitors killing everyone, but rather, killing anyone they want with no oversight or questioning, being for good or petty reason.
Well, the official motto of the Inquisition as an organisation is "Innocence Proves Nothing".
But a lot less stable than Ulthuan which is the comparison at hand.
Probably due to the extremely long lifespans of elves leaving their society extremely conservative and resistant to change in comparison to humans. If we judge by number of generations, then 1,500 years for humans is probably comparatively longer.
 
Probably due to the extremely long lifespans of elves leaving their society extremely conservative and resistant to change in comparison to humans. If we judge by number of generations, then 1,500 years for humans is probably comparatively longer.

Well yeah but that is inherent to the nature of the citizenry. It's a bit like the goblins complaining: 'you hummies have gods that don't stomp you on a whim, that's why you can build the big stone shacks.' It's true, but kind of beside the point.
 
Out of universe, definitely. Because the Light Order are the Freemasons.
In-universe, it depends on where you're pulling from.
In-quest, there's at least enough of a connection for a debate to take place:
Mostly it's the fact that all the winds are based on alien logic and all associations are things made by intelligent minds and bias. A true master of Ulgu would say stone is associated with Ulgu after all it conceals things right? It casts shadows. It is temporary and exists in time.

If you work at it everything is fully associated with everything wind which is why Boney has said that all spell creation has to work with Mathilde's traits so we only do spells that make sense to her.

Also brain blast: Brave and master sword women are both traits. Mathilde might be better suited to make a personal level mindsword then anyone else. Make a blade as sharp as our resolve. Also it's a scaled up shadow dagger.
 
I think that, in theory, given infinite Wind, and discipline can do anything.

Problem: there is not infinite Wind, and even if there was, channeling it would prove lethal even for the likes of Kroak.

So, in practice, things are much more limited.
 
So I was thinking about alt-wind!Mathilde since someone brought that up, specifically the only other type of wizard we were given at character Creation: Amethyst. So lets run this through

Intrigue Advisor
STIRLAND
Faith:
Morr, since kid!Mathilde Kidthilde if you will ( :V ) took up Ranald worship since she would get favor for things she would already do I think this one would go for the death god
Petty and Lesser Spells: Sound; Magic Weapon; Aetheryc Armor, solid picks and no reason to change them
Relatively Simple Spell: Death's Messenger (temporary bonus to intimidation) so she would have some kind of non-combat option.
Apparition: Bleak Swarm, I went with this over Rotwyrm just because being a swarm of invisible observers had potential for later
Sleeper Agent: I'm going to leave the Lahmians here even though it would have been harder for them to snare a death mage the way they did Regimand, no reason to unduly change the world

First thing that comes to mind is no Shadow steed so strategic mobility isn't in the cards, but lets say this Mathilde too has a good roll on her first use of Death's Messanger. What would be the scariest thing to a bunch of vampire thralls if not a vampire? So instead of just looking like herself but more scary Mathilde would gain the seeming of unlife. After maybe potentially almost getting staked by Van Hall she gets the idea of how to use this for more than intimidation since she is still a clever journeymanling with a high intrigue score, pretend to be a vampire to catch out their patsies in the stirland league, heck maybe she even manages to catch her predecessor.

The second point of divergence that now comes into focus is how does Morr differ from Ranald? Well he is not a god of luck but of death and dreams. So I'd say the favor of Morr would come in the form of insights in dreams about whatever project she focuses on. As she aquires more spell abilities like Final Words and Knocks of the Departed would go some way to getting her more information on vital projects even as the fact that Morr is a more acceptable god would mean that she would have an easier time using his Church for official help. Who knows maybe this Mathilde learns swording from the Black Guard? Since she is an Amethyst wizard I imagine she would get more use out of those barrow blades maybe even pick up one of those to fight with.

Lastly lets circle back around to that apparition. These things are meant to feast on rot so this Mathilde would have an aversion to dead bodies so maybe instead of optics she gets some anatomy books. What counts as flesh? Lets say she prepares a special box with some ripe cuts of meat and offal inside them as soon as the swarm manifests flash fry the whole thing. So Mathilde does so and with a little help from Morr it works. Dice still lands on 50. That it turns out that was troll meat with a bit of the magic still in it so when in contact with the already magical and partially Ghyan aligned warp beasty the flesh heals as it burns, a gout of perpetual controlled warp-fire.

Not going to go any further than this since realistically Mathilde would not act anything like the same in pivotal battles and other moments since she does not have the same skill-set or experiences.
 
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Sleeper Agent: I'm going to leave the Lahmians here even though it would have been harder for them to snare a death mage the way they did Regimand, no reason to unduly change the world
I feel like it's quite possible that for Amethyst!Mathilde, her Master would have been legitimately subverted by Lahmians. Regimand only ended up in the position he did because he's an expert at managing spy networks (entirely in the wheelhouse of Greys and their spells) and decided to bet himself so to speak; it'd be much harder (though not impossible) to find an Amethyst doing similar things like pretending to be subverted. That would be a pretty dramatic way to end the conspiracy, confronting her trusted Master and possibly either killing him or selling him out to the Amethysts.

But overall, yeah, there's so many other things that could change that that might not be how it goes.
 
I feel like it's quite possible that for Amethyst!Mathilde, her Master would have been legitimately subverted by Lahmians. Regimand only ended up in the position he did because he's an expert at managing spy networks (entirely in the wheelhouse of Greys and their spells) and decided to bet himself so to speak; it'd be much harder (though not impossible) to find an Amethyst doing similar things like pretending to be subverted. That would be a pretty dramatic way to end the conspiracy, confronting her trusted Master and possibly either killing him or selling him out to the Amethysts.

But overall, yeah, there's so many other things that could change that that might not be how it goes.

I was thinking that Amethyst Mathilde would be a lot more vampire focused, any necromatic ideas she found one way or another she would have a far easier time using. She has spirit binding and banishing spells right there on the base spell list not to mention the inherent affinity between the lores.
 
But a lot less stable than Ulthuan which is the comparison at hand.
Ulthuan broke in two and almost caused the end of the world. And then its leader did an absurd, outrageous act against the ambassadors of its closest ally, triggering a massive war that left it and its once-ally heavily depleted. Which caused another calamity for the dwarves when the Time of Woes began.

By contrast, the empire splitting into three after 1500 years of unity, but then reuniting 200 years ago when it was really needed is a huge success story.

In other words, the Empire might fail, but it won't bring down its allies with it. Ulthuan...did. With catastrophic results. Twice.

I'm with DragonParadox on this one. The Empire was split into at least three parts and had remained that way for at least a few centuries - I'd call that a spectacular failure of its own, a failure of its systems and interests. The Empire's own divided loyalties strangled it until Magnus came along.

And if we're comparing things to the disaster of the Druchii, we could equally point to the Chaos Dwarves.

The failure of the Asur is in no way unique - I think one would struggle to find any faction in the world without their own bugbears. It's just that they basically ruled the world at one point and that magnifies the scale of their fuck-ups.
The Chaos Dwarves, as bad as they are, still don't hold a candle to "nearly ended the world once, and have tried to do so again". And even then, the Chaos Dwarves came about not because of a failure of their governance, but because the world becoming saturated with magic made maintaining contact with them impossible, and they were overwhelmed by the unrelenting hordes of Chaos.

By contrast, the Druuchi festered into the calamity that it was entirely after the Great Vortex was established, and when it boiled over, it was a full-blown civil war that raged across Ulthuan and to the Great Vortex itself.

The Chaos Dwarves and Karaz Ankor have never been in serious warfare with each other; I do not know of any case of two of their armies clashing, and the closest they might come to doing so in the future is Karak Vlag and Uzkulak, and even then it seems unlikely.
 
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I do wonder if the Chaos Dwarfs keep their own book of grudges? Because that seems like the main reason Karaz Ankor ever goes on the attack rather than just wait for enemies to come to them.

Then again the Chaos Dwarfs send slaves to settle grudges.

If Karaz Ankor rediscovered golem making they might actually do something similar. Imagine Bok coming after you.
 
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The Chaos Dwarves, as bad as they are, still don't hold a candle to "nearly ended the world once, and have tried to do so again". And even then, the Chaos Dwarves came about not because of a failure of their governance, but because the world becoming saturated with magic made maintaining contact with them impossible, and they were overwhelmed by the unrelenting hordes of Chaos.

By contrast, the Druuchi festered into the calamity that it was entirely after the Great Vortex was established, and when it boiled over, it was a full-blown civil war that raged across Ulthuan and to the Great Vortex itself.

My point is that if the Empire had been in a similar position (being so good at magic that they made a giant world-preserving magical working, having colonies basically everywhere, and not having been essentially technologically uplifted by other mortal beings) they would also eventually fuck up tremendously. Pride precedes falls and all that.

And while you can attribute a good chunk of the Druchii's secession to Morathi and Malekith causing it, it can't be said to be entirely the work of a handful of monumentally fucked-up elves. It's essentially canon that after the Coming of Chaos, large numbers of elves didn't know how to live with themselves in peace, because they'd become too violent, cruel and war-like in the process of fighting Daemons, which is why Malekith had a power base to begin with.

The institution of Phoenix King isn't entirely to blame here - generational trauma due to warring with Daemons is.

The Chaos Dwarves and Karaz Ankor have never been in serious warfare with each other; I do not know of any case of two of their armies clashing, and the closest they might come to doing so in the future is Karak Vlag and Uzkulak, and even then it seems unlikely.
I also am squinting a lot at this statement. Perhaps you're right in the sense that they don't march up to each others' Karaks and lay siege to them, but that wouldn't say much - I don't think either of them have the resources or manpower to directly do so. It's a war in the sense that it's kill on sight with one another.
 
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@Boney
Bit of an odd question, but i was sharing some random snippets from the quest with a friend (who, incidentally, has strong opinions about the Grey Order being the (collective) True Emperor and also has very serious concerns about their lack of oversight :p), and while discussing one of the few instances of oversight that they approve of (the section where mathilde researches dark rituals), the life of these librarians and any other members of the college that can't leave the grounds came up.

So...how big is the grey college, specifically the part(s) that they are confined to?

Big enough.

-Are they confined to the liminal realm portion, or are there any real world buildings that count as the grounds of the college?

Parts of the Grey College exist within reality, and they aren't differentiated from the liminal realm portions of the College. Most people aren't even aware that there is a difference to differentiate.

-Are there restaurants?
-Do they have apartments with kitchen(ette)s?

There's a staffed kitchen. Part of the privileges of rank is the kitchen staff cooking what you request, instead of you getting whatever they're making for the Apprentices that day. They could use the kitchen themselves if they wanted to cook something personally, but that wasn't so much a thing in this time period - without all our modern labour-saving devices cooking even for one is much more a specialist skillset.

-Are they stuck in dorms?

They have their own room.

-Are there non-wizard employees whose job is to do grocery and grubhub runs?

Mostly Perpetuals, but yes.

-Can they have visitors?

Yes.

-Are they allowed to have families/kids???

The sort of people that would agree to take on these restrictions aren't usually the family-making types, but they aren't disallowed from doing so if they can make it work.

-Do they ever see natural sunlight? Either from the above 'are there non-liminal-realm buildings that count as the grounds' or...can they do windows in the liminal realm? Surely not, but can they?

There are courtyards within the Grey College, some with gardens.
 
Big enough.



Parts of the Grey College exist within reality, and they aren't differentiated from the liminal realm portions of the College. Most people aren't even aware that there is a difference to differentiate.



There's a staffed kitchen. Part of the privileges of rank is the kitchen staff cooking what you request, instead of you getting whatever they're making for the Apprentices that day. They could use the kitchen themselves if they wanted to cook something personally, but that wasn't so much a thing in this time period - without all our modern labour-saving devices cooking even for one is much more a specialist skillset.



They have their own room.



Mostly Perpetuals, but yes.



Yes.



The sort of people that would agree to take on these restrictions aren't usually the family-making types, but they aren't disallowed from doing so if they can make it work.



There are courtyards within the Grey College, some with gardens.
Thank you for indulging JJ's (and by extension, my) concern for the vetted librarians :) They are content with this aspect of the grey college now:

Their lives aren't half bad then
I have no complaints about the living and working conditions of the librarians of evil
[Me: they will be spared when you try to nail your 99 theses to the door of the grey order and get turned around by all the confusion wind in the area]
My 99 theses will be about internal oversight. Fuck the empire, the grey people can be the emperor
The librarians are 100% spared

Also just good to know more about the grey college, especially regarding the liminal vs not liminal spaces
 
I should hope not, it would be really weird for me to have posts in threads of destiny sharing JJ's art if they had an account here all along XD

:p
That would be pretty odd for your friend to have you do yes, thankfully we don't live in that timeline.

I'm good with lowercase jj. Should work fine. I'm sure no one would ever possibly be confused by that at all! ;)
 
Parts of the Grey College exist within reality, and they aren't differentiated from the liminal realm portions of the College. Most people aren't even aware that there is a difference to differentiate.
That is really appropriate for the College of Ulgu*. Can Mathilde tell the difference? If she can would she have had any chance of noticing without it having been pointed out to her?

*Also must make for some very confused apprentices if any have tried to draw a to scale map of the college.
 
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