K von Carstein
Likes to go for a walk
- Location
- Belgium
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- He
They already have tributaries. It's just that theirs need lots of gold and silver to work. But otherwise yeah, we should build waystone in Laurelorn not too late.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
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- Tags
- warhammer warhammer fantasy fantasy be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist pansexual protagonist ck2 quest divided loyalties mountain vietnam ranald is real this is a dwarf quest (dwarfs) this is maybe an elf quest this is not a vampire quest this is not an empire quest try it and find out open voting
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
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I'd be up for waystones or tributaries but both per turn locks away a whole two AP every turn. Especially if we still want to pursue more research avenues in the project, like nexuses or dwarven waystones.
Personally I am perfectly happy to let the tributaries languish. We got a working method that can be done pretty easily. That doesn't need our help much. The waystones are more important.
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Related to the current talk and the 'your accomplishments must be at least this big to get the fancy LM hat' talk from a little bit ago;
I wonder if we could use a [Colleges Major Boon], or equivalent, on every College having their most (diplomatically / feat-plomatically) suited LM / Magister convince the Elector counts to get tributary installations rolling. Or at least to agree to it.
Ex.
Stirland - LM Mathilde Weber - In-Progress
Wissenland - MP Elspeth v. Draken - TBD
Reikland - LM Mira - TBD
The Moot - M Panoramia - TBD
Middenland - LM Stanisława Skłodowicz
Etc
I wonder if we could use a [Colleges Major Boon], or equivalent, on every College having their most (diplomatically / feat-plomatically) suited LM / Magister convince the Elector counts to get tributary installations rolling. Or at least to agree to it.
Ex.
Stirland - LM Mathilde Weber - In-Progress
Wissenland - MP Elspeth v. Draken - TBD
Reikland - LM Mira - TBD
The Moot - M Panoramia - TBD
Middenland - LM Stanisława Skłodowicz
Etc
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... We can just use the boon we have to bring this matter to an elector meet and have it be considered seriously.
If we do get a deed out of the orbs that would work well I think.
Parabola
Divided Loyalties Librarian
- Location
- The Destination of Fate
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- She/Her
I mean, that's exactly why I said we should at least consider using a hypothetical College boon on helping speed both of these things along considerably.
But even in the worst case scenario we definitely wouldn't spend so many actions to cover literally every province - like has been said, overall tributary rollout will happen on its own 'naturally' given enough time, and what we want to focus on to make a difference is covering the most at-risk parts of the network. Doing a few provinces (probably the ones in most need, like Middenland because it's right next to the Drakwald or any of the ones next to the Forest of Shadows would accelerate that process meaningfully.
And even then, Kislev is in far more need of tributaries than the Empire does. Boney's said tributaries would be more of use there right now than the Empire. Tributaries would mean preventing the loss of a lot of grazeland to Troll Country.
- Location
- Texas
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- He/Him
This is in "planning the lives of chickens when we barely bought the eggs" territory but if we get a boon from the Jade College for the Morbs why not have a swarm of jade wizards do the river tributaries for a location as fast as possible?
Because honestly it's not worth it to do it "as fast as possible."
Like the tributaries are nice and helpful, but it's the waystones that are actually important.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
How about right before or after the mist tower road finishes? That way they will get a new trade route and a bunch of free gold and sliver at the same time.
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That's true, and we could definitely do that. What I was thinking of was that (iirc) Mathilde didn't even have to roll to convince Roswita that the Tributaries are a good idea. That's because of her diplomacy, her reputation, and her own history in Stirland.
My idea is that between the ~50 LM & ~200 Magisters of the Colleges, there ought to be a set of Wizards with their own silver tongues, silver deeds, and vested interests, if we could shake their AP loose with a sufficiently cool Boon.
Honestly it just sounds easier to go to dragomas and have him and us convince the emperor to bring it up at that point. Getting the whole college to do shits sounds tedious as fuck.
Parabola
Divided Loyalties Librarian
- Location
- The Destination of Fate
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- She/Her
Completely true, but we'd probably be asking all eight Colleges for help, not just the Jades, and there's a lot more than just rituals and tributaries that they could help out with.
For instance, they could use a lot of their political capital to smooth over any problems with the Electors, or help coordinate tributaries with other magical groups. Tributaries can be done by any magical group, so even with low amounts of ritualists, the Jades could always go to the Cult of Rhya, and the Ambers to the Cult of Taal, or the Amethysts to the Cult of Morr, or things of the sort. There's also surveying the Empire's network for adequate locations of where to place waystones and all that.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Mostly tributaries can be made by much lower level magic users then waystones so the two approaches dip into very different resource pools allowing them to run in parallel.
They both take from the same resource pool in one important way, our time. Which is why I am absolutely happy to have them on the back burner.
Do you know where Boney said the spread of tributaries would happen naturally over time? I would absolutely believe it happening if Mathilde put in a Great Deed to accomplish it, but that doesn't match Boney's QM style as I understand it. Something about if you want it to happen you should do it.
I agree that we should limit the provinces we do it with AP. Middenland is definitely a good one. It has a large number of its own Sylvanias, like the Midden Moors and the Drakwald. Other than that, Ostland I guess. That portion of the Forest of Shadows is particularly nasty. But that might entail sending more magic to the Blood Fane and Tower of Melkhior. I can't think of another province that would benefit from tributaries like that. Reikland and Talabecland are decently safe. Maybe Ostermark.
I wasn't thinking of the lornalim yeah, but my main point was about whether Laurelorn had gotten deliverables from the Project. It has gotten diplomacy wins (and a bit of a blunder), but we haven't done waystone stuff in it. They're the host and the host should be extremely high on the list of where we deploy stuff.
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Parabola
Divided Loyalties Librarian
- Location
- The Destination of Fate
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I suppose that what he's really said (in two separate statements) is that a) once the Project ends, all the members will go home with whatever secrets and knowledge they've figured out and b) the ritual will be codified by other people as it gets rolled out. Maybe I'm forgetting another statement from him on the general matter, though.
I guess I'm mostly extrapolating from those two that I remember that even if the project ended tomorrow due to Mathilde dying in a freak gyrocarriage accident, all the respective parties would still share their tributaries with their organizations/friends, and they'd get written down, and eventually spread around... But now that I put it that way, it really does feel like we should be more proactive on the matter. It's one thing for an individual organization have a tributary ritual and maybe use it or prioritize it, it's quite another for an international group to push for them being spread out in a given area by dedicated teams.
Part of the reason we didn't give them to Kislev this turn was because Boney said that right now they were probably more concerned with recruitment and organization of its disparate magical traditions - hopefully they'd be ready (or ready enough) next turn that they may be ready to fully cover Kislev with tributaries.
That jogged a memory of mine, so looked for a post that is relevant. Boney mentioned that Zlata and Niedzwenka didn't need to get information back home because it was unlikely that Vladimir would have done anything about it. But we've already spent an action to get that to happen and Boris more far-sighted than the average Imperial Elector-Count. If we recruit Bretonnia and get the Fay Enchantress and develop Grail tributaries we might not need to spend AP to deploy them.
I found the post that mentioned the priorities of Kislevite magical traditions. I had thought the tributaries in Kislev were already set into motion. But it makes sense that they're first going to try to organize themselves. It might give us the opportunity to make an Ice Witch tributary before it starts.
I'm not confident if Zlata succeeded (a small chance, I know) in making a Ice Witch tributary if it would be sent back to Kislev to be used. Though I think that is the implication. I'm also curious about the Kurgan tributaries. It might be possible to turn dead Ice Witches into tributaries.
Also this looks exciting. I want to try. It seems like fun. I already was tempted to get Egrimm's help in finding a Black Essence to create a dhar-user seeking spell.
But this way we can rope Elrisse into I can't believe it's not daemonology too!
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deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
- Location
- Earth
The other limiting factor is presumably time though. I don't think Lornalim grow overnight without wizard hours (and potentially not with them either).
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
I mean that if we give with tributaries they can get the gold and sliver of their current tributaries.
- Location
- Who knows?
Even if the Waytrees were rendered obsolete, I doubt Laurelorn is gonna greenlight digging up any of their trees. For any reason. It's kinda the starting point of the whole "almost existential war with the Empire" thing
deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
- Location
- Earth
As @A_Somebody said, I doubt the Eonir are going to cut down the Lornalim, any more than introducing tributaries has induced the Empire to destroy prior tributaries in their territory.
- Location
- Greece
Where does Warhammer Fantasy fit into this?
I know it's a meme, but I have SEVERAL problems with this alignment. Like, nearly every single box I have at least one objection.
...Screw it, I am putting it in spoilers and ranting.
First of all, I'll assume alignment has nothing to do with the quality of the work in question, and that all alignments can have good and bad works, in order to protect my sanity.
Lawful and Neutral good: Fullmetal alchemist and Avatar should be in the same box, I am not sure which, they both stradle the line, but they are pretty much the same worldbuilding design wise, right down to having a higher plane of metaphysics (spirit world/Truth) that gets fleshed as the world needs.
Neutral good: The Cosmere as a whole should be in lawful good. Yes, any individual planet of Sanderson's is not as well built as, say, the Middle Earth, but I think the reason for that is because he is having a setting with multiple planets and multiple stories. Also, I'd argue the energy he spends in making sure the physics work is equivalent to the energy other authors spend in making civilizations and languages and cultures, and why is that considered a more abstract form of storytelling?
Chaotic good: One Piece is put there solely because of its absurdist and humorous qualities, but when you have a story where, every so often, we gotta have the "geopolitic implications" chapter, and later the "geopolitics implications" arc, and when we have foreshadowing referencing specific worldbuilding events thousands of chapters before (yes, including specific foreshadowing about the recentish twist) I cannot call its worldbuilding anything but as meticulous as LoTR, it was placed in this box solely because of its more absurd elements and use of gag rules as real physics. But while that could be defined as chaotic good worldbuilding in a sense, its not the chaotic good worldbuilding as defined in the chart.
Chaotic good also: Why isn't Magic the gathering Neutral Evil? No, really, it is making it as it goes along more than Dr. Who does, and to equally variable results.
Lawful neutral: ... Yeah, I have no objections for that one, actually.
Neutral: My little pony: friendship is magic deserves to be in chaotic good more than mtg... but if mtg wasn't there, I would have no objection to its placement, so perhaps this is not a real objection.
Chaotic neutral: Yeah, I am trying to figure this out. Figure what this category means. Is it about jigzaw puzzle plots where you have to put it together yourself? (Kirby, Dark souls, most args) or is it about plots that do not really matter to your enjoyment of the story? (Kirby, Skyrim, Dark Souls?) And either way, this has to do with the presentation of information, not really the worldbuilding itself.
Lawful Evil, Chaotic Evil: I am not sure which box they should fit in, but I am pretty sure that Blazblue, Fate, Homestuck and Kingdom Hearts should be at the same one. There is a difference in quality, but not methodology. Unless you argue that the thing with Homestuck and Kingdom Hearts is that they make it as they go along while Fate and Blazblue had their rules set since the beggining, but that should place them at neutral evil... actually, what is the difference between neutral and chaotic evil? Plot twist density? That is not a worldbuilding thing. Self-contradiction? Homestuck actually does not have any, and Dr. Who has a ton because the continuity snarl overflowed at several points in its absurdly long history.
On that note, DC/Marvel and Dr.Who should also be on the same box, because their rules are the result of the same writing process. And scp is orthogonal to the whole argument, because it has very good initial set of rules, it is just a set of rules that is meant to provide a stage for other people's stories without caring about continuity or contradictions between them, and so by making a continuity between scps (that do not refer to each other, some teams of scps do live in their team bubbles of continuity, but those are consistent) it feels as if you are misunderstanding the whole exercise. SCP feels like it deserves the unaligned tag.
/rant end.
Lawful and Neutral good: Fullmetal alchemist and Avatar should be in the same box, I am not sure which, they both stradle the line, but they are pretty much the same worldbuilding design wise, right down to having a higher plane of metaphysics (spirit world/Truth) that gets fleshed as the world needs.
Neutral good: The Cosmere as a whole should be in lawful good. Yes, any individual planet of Sanderson's is not as well built as, say, the Middle Earth, but I think the reason for that is because he is having a setting with multiple planets and multiple stories. Also, I'd argue the energy he spends in making sure the physics work is equivalent to the energy other authors spend in making civilizations and languages and cultures, and why is that considered a more abstract form of storytelling?
Chaotic good: One Piece is put there solely because of its absurdist and humorous qualities, but when you have a story where, every so often, we gotta have the "geopolitic implications" chapter, and later the "geopolitics implications" arc, and when we have foreshadowing referencing specific worldbuilding events thousands of chapters before (yes, including specific foreshadowing about the recentish twist) I cannot call its worldbuilding anything but as meticulous as LoTR, it was placed in this box solely because of its more absurd elements and use of gag rules as real physics. But while that could be defined as chaotic good worldbuilding in a sense, its not the chaotic good worldbuilding as defined in the chart.
Chaotic good also: Why isn't Magic the gathering Neutral Evil? No, really, it is making it as it goes along more than Dr. Who does, and to equally variable results.
Lawful neutral: ... Yeah, I have no objections for that one, actually.
Neutral: My little pony: friendship is magic deserves to be in chaotic good more than mtg... but if mtg wasn't there, I would have no objection to its placement, so perhaps this is not a real objection.
Chaotic neutral: Yeah, I am trying to figure this out. Figure what this category means. Is it about jigzaw puzzle plots where you have to put it together yourself? (Kirby, Dark souls, most args) or is it about plots that do not really matter to your enjoyment of the story? (Kirby, Skyrim, Dark Souls?) And either way, this has to do with the presentation of information, not really the worldbuilding itself.
Lawful Evil, Chaotic Evil: I am not sure which box they should fit in, but I am pretty sure that Blazblue, Fate, Homestuck and Kingdom Hearts should be at the same one. There is a difference in quality, but not methodology. Unless you argue that the thing with Homestuck and Kingdom Hearts is that they make it as they go along while Fate and Blazblue had their rules set since the beggining, but that should place them at neutral evil... actually, what is the difference between neutral and chaotic evil? Plot twist density? That is not a worldbuilding thing. Self-contradiction? Homestuck actually does not have any, and Dr. Who has a ton because the continuity snarl overflowed at several points in its absurdly long history.
On that note, DC/Marvel and Dr.Who should also be on the same box, because their rules are the result of the same writing process. And scp is orthogonal to the whole argument, because it has very good initial set of rules, it is just a set of rules that is meant to provide a stage for other people's stories without caring about continuity or contradictions between them, and so by making a continuity between scps (that do not refer to each other, some teams of scps do live in their team bubbles of continuity, but those are consistent) it feels as if you are misunderstanding the whole exercise. SCP feels like it deserves the unaligned tag.
/rant end.
Because I do not want to make the entire post unrelated to this thread, let me also add that Boney has done some amazing magic transforming something that is... somewhere in the evil alignment into Lawful Good. Seriously, the work and research that goes into this thread is insane. I cannot fathom how someone can work so hard to make a setting make sense without owning it or getting paid to do it. Kudos to Boney for being better than some published authors I know.
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