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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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DragonParadox said:
(hopefully) the final change to this
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you should add Eike to the Linguistic Drift in Lizardmen Glyphs paper, she got a 1/3 Linguistics skill from researching the Lustrian rubbings so maybe that'll advance that skill further
(sorry)
Gavin Prince said:
The Rune-only Waystone also doesn't actually work for its intended use-case (The Karaz Ankor's own network), as you can't use the pass-phrase to get Caledor's help in forging a leyline when your network isn't connected to the Vortex. Like, it's possible there's an outlet passing through Tilea/Estalia, but I think the KA network probably is entirely isolated and feeding its input into its Great Works.
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I don't think we actually know that. It sounds sensible, but the Vlag Waystone did respond to keyphrases that Mathilde knew, so for all we know it might respond to the leyline keyphrases somehow. This is why we really need to look into the dwarf network already, we won't know what the dwarves need if we never ask.
 
thisisinsane said:
Funny But OOC.
Embrace the Virgin Magister Chad Mathilda dynamic:

To put my money where my mouth is Cite:
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In a surprise plot twist, the Elfcation begins when Mathilde is briefly exiled from first Altdorf and then the Old World for refusing to shut up after explaining the ins and outs of her magnum opus three months straight.

... I feel like Trumpet Boy would also be an appropriate meme here.
 
mathymancer said:
you should add Eike to the Linguistic Drift in Lizardmen Glyphs paper, she got a 1/3 Linguistics skill from researching the Lustrian rubbings so maybe that'll advance that skill further
(sorry)

I don't think we actually know that. It sounds sensible, but the Vlag Waystone did respond to keyphrases that Mathilde knew, so for all we know it might respond to the leyline keyphrases somehow. This is why we really need to look into the dwarf network already, we won't know what the dwarves need if we never ask.
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That would her at 4 actions and enchantment learning, which is I think a bit much, but I can see the point of doing so. I will not change that in my vote, but if someone makes a version with it added I'll approval vote it
 
Tobtorp said:
I do think we can get dispensation for this act of black magic. It is rather integral to our building of waystones, and it does make intuitive sense that to move the black magic you have somewhat touch the black magic.
Still, should do that beforehand and get it in gromrilclad writing...
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Who even has the authority to give that permission? I am not even sure the Emperor does. Maybe if we had an elector count vote supporting the waystone project?
 
MrHobbit said:
I think Eltharion's interest in the bag of rocks can be chalked up to it being a bag of rocks. Look at a map of Yvresse, it doesn't have rivers to the extent that the Empire does. Its nexus, Tralinia, is off the coast on an island.
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Hrrrmm but the bag of stones works on "Induced correspondence," or a pathway forged by the metaphorical channel creating by the river moving in X direction for millenia. Technically the river itself isn't being used, just the 'idea' that there is and will always be a path from X to Y here.

So even if there aren't any current large scale rivers, there might be rivers that dried up or were redirected but due to history still have the metaphysical heft to tap into for safe-ish Dhar transport. Or maybe some similar path, like an old but now not used trade path.
 
Boney said:
You could make an enchantment that does the job of attracting Dhar itself instead of having to rely on the existing Network, but it would itself need to be made out of Dhar. If there was no other way you might consider seeking dispensation, and if there was no other way the Colleges might consider granting it, but it would be much better if you did find some other way.
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There are two alternative even if it turns out that you can't make the Fascis work without dark magic, the Stone Flower and the Runic Inductor. I think they would basically all have to fail before anyone will consider allowing us to preform abominable acts.
 
LightLan said:
The Emperor does have the theoretical authority to do that.

It'll still cost him from the Sigmarites crying Dark Magic.
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If he did it publicly sure, the GT would have to cry foul to appease the faithful, if he gets Dragonas the GT and Mathilde in a room and has the wizards explain the problem to him, including how this manipulation of dark magic is the only think preventing the end of the world I don't think he would react like a scared peasant or scream about how he will kill all the wizards if they do this. After all it's not like it would give him the chance to kill wizards, he would just block the avenue of research and earn himself some imperial and colegiate resentment. He has to worry about politics too.
 
And GT will still use it to extract something.
BEcause GT is a politician, and that is what politicians generally do when given half a chance.
 
Valmond said:
And GT will still use it to extract something.
BEcause GT is a politician, and that is what politicians generally do when given half a chance.
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Pretty much and as others have said above he does not have to underwrite Imperial wizards touching Dhar, he has to turn a blind eye to elves touching bad magic with their elf-only High Magic. At that point if he does scream even the peasants might look at him in askance.
 
The permission slip would likely come in the form of the Emperor signing an order to construct waystones with specific mentions that in this case articles 1,4,5,8,10 and 15 are overriding.

Also it can be argued that the wording of article 15 does mean that it overrides all others.
 
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fictionfan said:
The permission slip would likely come in the form of the Emperor signing an order to construct waystones with specific mentions that in this case articles 1,4,5,8,10 and 15 are overriding.
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It's even simpler than that I think, the Articles do not cover elves doing elf magic. All it would take is a treaty with Laurelorn establishing that they can practice all eight lores of wind magic as well as high magic. It sounds innocuous and overs the problem
 
DragonParadox said:
It's even simpler than that I think, the Articles do not cover elves doing elf magic. All it would take is a treaty with Laurelorn establishing that they can practice all eight lores of wind magic as well as high magic. It sounds innocuous and overs the problem
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Does Midland's treaty with them really not cover that? Someone must have dropped the ball there.
 
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In the end, the laws mean as much as the people in power let them. If the discussion goes:

Emperor Luitpold: "I allow this."
Grand Theogonist: "You can't do that."
Emperor Luitpold: "Yes I can."

then there's no court of appeals. The only thing holding him to account is the existence of other power blocs, and I don't think any of them would go to war over this. We'd rather not add stress to that system as when it does fail things go very very badly. But I don't actually think that if we went ahead with the iffy option for Waystones that it would be the straw that broke the camel's back, now or in the future.
 
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DragonParadox said:
[] Plan Orbs, Stones and Scopes, Ithilmar, Enchantment and Exploration
-[ ] Create Orbs of Sorcery solo (requires one of each Power Stone)
-[ ] Serenity: Write a book : Aethyric Vitae 1/2
-[ ] Waystone: Build a Waystone: Everyone.
-[ ] Waystone: Other Networks Karaz Ankor: Runelord Thorek
-[ ] EGRIMM: Attempt a Windherder enchantment with Egrimm (Auditory Seviroscope) Spend 5 CF for a Magister with Auditory Magesight to help out
-[ ] JOHANN: Explore one of the Wards of Laurelorn (Storms)
-[ ] MAX: Receive dictation: Linguistic Drift in Lizardmen Glyphs, The Polyphenic Theory of Lizardmen Society
-[ ] EIC: Gather as much Ithilmar from throughout the Old World as possible to resell to the Eonir for a one-time profit
-[ ] KAU: Seek an exchange arrangement with another Library or a Karak's archives to be able to make copies of their corpus (Karak Vlag Archives)
-[ ] COIN: Gambler: Build a Waystone
-[ ] Eike Study: Learn Enchantment at the Colleges 1 CF
-[ ] Eike Actions: Karaz Ankor Network with Thorek, Attempt a Windherder enchantment with Egrimm, Explore the Ward of Storms with Johann
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I really like this plan, but I have one suggestion and a minor quibble.

The first being to move the KAU action to getting language teachers for our scribes, since they'll have more time in the narrative abstraction to learn them before we set them onto a library that needs them - I'm not sure why your plan goes for the Karak Vlag Archives when our scribes don't yet know Khazalid (and Kislevarin, which would be useful in the event that some Fire Spire texts were left in Vlag).

The second, and far less important: I feel like the name doesn't communicate what sets the plan apart from others. I think literally every single other plan has Orbs and the Build a Waystone action, so putting those in the title doesn't really tell you much, and there's also a large amount of people that want ithilmar, so that also isn't very helpful. And while adding in Scopes is also more specific than "Enchantments", it's still kind of an enchantment and referred to as such in the action itself so it might be better to imply that's included in enchantment lessons.

So, while I'm not very good at names, I'd suggest something like this:

[] Plan Elves and Dwarves and Enchantments
-[ ] COIN: The Gambler
-[ ] Waystone: Build a Waystone (All) (The Gambler)
-[ ] Waystone: Other Networks (Karaz Ankor) (Thorek)
-[ ] EGRIMM: Attempt a Windherder enchantment with Egrimm (Auditory Seviroscope) (Spend 5 CF for a Magister with Auditory Magesight to help out)
-[ ] JOHANN: Explore one of the Wards of Laurelorn (Storms)
-[ ] MAX: Receive dictation: Linguistic Drift in Lizardmen Glyphs, The Polyphenic Theory of Lizardmen Society
-[ ] Create Orbs of Sorcery solo (requires one of each Power Stone)
-[ ] Serenity: Write a book: Aethyric Vitae 1/2
-[ ] EIC: Gather as much Ithilmar from throughout the Old World as possible to resell to the Eonir for a one-time profit
-[ ] KAU: Hire educators to teach a language or group of languages to your scribes (Old World Languages)
-[ ] Eike Actions: Karaz Ankor Network, Auditory Seviroscope, Ward of Storms
-[ ] Eike Study: Enchantment lessons (1 CF)
 
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A_Somebody said:
Hrrrmm but the bag of stones works on "Induced correspondence," or a pathway forged by the metaphorical channel creating by the river moving in X direction for millenia. Technically the river itself isn't being used, just the 'idea' that there is and will always be a path from X to Y here.

So even if there aren't any current large scale rivers, there might be rivers that dried up or were redirected but due to history still have the metaphysical heft to tap into for safe-ish Dhar transport. Or maybe some similar path, like an old but now not used trade path.
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There is no evidence that Ulthuan has a large amount of rivers that dried up. I suggest that, outside of Nagarythe and Chrace, its rivers are largely unchanged since it was founded. The map certainly doesn't show anything like what you are suggesting.

Rivers moving probably drags the correspondence with them. The flow that the Reik follows today almost certainly isn't the same flow it followed two millennia ago and it is that millennia of running that creates the yngra elthrai. It is possible that the Reik's course hasn't changed much because of magic, but if that is the case the same would certainly apply to Ulthuan.

I also don't think that it would be feasible to get Hedgewise bags of rocks to Ulthuan. That would bring a lot of attention to them and that attention would bring Witch Hunters. Ulthuan would find a lot more feasible to wrangle spirits to handle the task.
 
Getting the waystone allowance precedent set up might eventually allow us to normalize use of the Second Secret in extraordinary circumstances (and by extraordinary individuals, given that its danger is in being learned rather than utilized; it'd be something you equip battlemages with a scroll of occasionally, not a bread and butter sort of thing).

Institutionalizing the capacity would kneecap the spine shivering possibility of the Empire's back being broken by screeching skeleton scroungers.

Black magic is a tool like any other wind; it's merely the solutions that are questionable. Sometimes the wind of Domination deserves to be used to T-pose over our lessers, when those lessers are more evil than us.
 
chocolote12 said:
Black magic is a tool like any other wind; it's merely the solutions that are questionable. Sometimes the wind of Domination deserves to be used to T-pose over our lessers, when those lessers are more evil than us.
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While I would agree that magic is a tool, I would say the Winds are normal workshop tools and the varying uses of Dark Magic are closer to using chainsaws or dynamite. Chainsaws are legit tools to cut down trees, and dynamite was in fact originally made for mining, but what would you prefer? Chiselfingers, or dynamite/chainsaw-fingers? Because it seems to me like a lot of necromancers and chaos sorcerers have a tendency to lack metaphorical hands.

...At any rate, since we got Tindomiel to do the Waystones in the Empire, Boney has mentioned before that the real problem is going to be Laurelorn getting an equivalent organization to the Colleges from the Eonir so they can work here.

dinomannitro6 said:
I think the question is if only magisters being permitted to be spellcasters is for anyone currently in the Empire's lands, or just for Imperial citizens. Given previous Boney comments I think its the former.
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Boney said:
It hasn't really been a problem up until now, because the 'loophole' of priests being okay isn't so much a loophole as it is a can of worms nobody wants to be responsible for opening - if you say that Damsels of the Lady or Ice Witches of the Ancient Widow are spellcasters and thus breaking the Empire's law, you're saying the same of every Anointed of the Empire's many Cults. But the Eonir don't really fit through that 'loophole' because the Elven paradigm doesn't recognize divine magic as a thing that exists. Someone using magic might be said to be channeling Hekarti or Hoeth, but only in the same way that someone swinging a sword is channeling Eldrazor.

Should the Empire and Eonir continue to integrate together, the easiest solution would be for the Eonir to form a body that will be acknowledged as their equivalent of the Colleges of Magic that any Eonir who seek to travel through the Empire must be licensed by if they're going to be performing any magic, and have them be responsible for any magical wrongdoing by the Eonir.
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chocolote12 said:
Getting the waystone allowance precedent set up might eventually allow us to normalize use of the Second Secret in extraordinary circumstances (and by extraordinary individuals, given that its danger is in being learned rather than utilized; it'd be something you equip battlemages with a scroll of occasionally, not a bread and butter sort of thing).

Institutionalizing the capacity would kneecap the spine shivering possibility of the Empire's back being broken by screeching skeleton scroungers.

Black magic is a tool like any other wind; it's merely the solutions that are questionable. Sometimes the wind of Domination deserves to be used to T-pose over our lessers, when those lessers are more evil than us.
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I very much doubt this. This would be very much used for a "slippery slope" type of argument and no one wants that, so it probably will be very thoroughly controlled.
DragonParadox said:
Pretty much and as others have said above he does not have to underwrite Imperial wizards touching Dhar, he has to turn a blind eye to elves touching bad magic with their elf-only High Magic. At that point if he does scream even the peasants might look at him in askance.
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We were talking about allowing imperial wizards touching dhar which is why that was discussed.
 
DragonParadox said:
Since there seems to be a broad consensus on putting everyone on Waystones, for various reasons with some pretty good arguments given as to what people could contribute here we go, (hopefully) the final change to this

[] Plan Orbs, Stones and Scopes, Ithilmar, Enchantment and Exploration
-[ ] Create Orbs of Sorcery solo (requires one of each Power Stone)
-[ ] Serenity: Write a book : Aethyric Vitae 1/2
-[ ] Waystone: Build a Waystone: Everyone.
-[ ] Waystone: Other Networks Karaz Ankor: Runelord Thorek
-[ ] EGRIMM: Attempt a Windherder enchantment with Egrimm (Auditory Seviroscope) Spend 5 CF for a Magister with Auditory Magesight to help out
-[ ] JOHANN: Explore one of the Wards of Laurelorn (Storms)
-[ ] MAX: Receive dictation: Linguistic Drift in Lizardmen Glyphs, The Polyphenic Theory of Lizardmen Society
-[ ] EIC: Gather as much Ithilmar from throughout the Old World as possible to resell to the Eonir for a one-time profit
-[ ] KAU: Seek an exchange arrangement with another Library or a Karak's archives to be able to make copies of their corpus (Karak Vlag Archives)
-[ ] COIN: Gambler: Build a Waystone
-[ ] Eike Study: Learn Enchantment at the Colleges 1 CF
-[ ] Eike Actions: Karaz Ankor Network with Thorek, Attempt a Windherder enchantment with Egrimm, Explore the Ward of Storms with Johann



A lot of the pieces are dwarf made and Thorek has unique insights that it makes sense to incorporate. We might as well take everyone and hope that they do not get in each other's way.
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From all the proposed plans, this one is the one I like most.

I would like more one which leaves aside WebMat actions to finish the AV book anddo tributary rollout, but I guess we can do both these things next turn
 
fictionfan said:
Does Midland's treaty with them really not cover that? Someone must have dropped the ball there.
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They are not allowed to invite foreign wizards in to the Empire never mind to make changes to their legal status. Only Emperor can do that and even he is careful and only giving out diplomatic immunities rather than changing laws.
 
DragonParadox said:
[] Plan Orbs, Stones and Scopes, Ithilmar, Enchantment and Exploration
-[ ] Create Orbs of Sorcery solo (requires one of each Power Stone)
-[ ] Serenity: Write a book : Aethyric Vitae 1/2
-[ ] Waystone: Build a Waystone: Everyone.
-[ ] Waystone: Other Networks Karaz Ankor: Runelord Thorek
-[ ] EGRIMM: Attempt a Windherder enchantment with Egrimm (Auditory Seviroscope) Spend 5 CF for a Magister with Auditory Magesight to help out
-[ ] JOHANN: Explore one of the Wards of Laurelorn (Storms)
-[ ] MAX: Receive dictation: Linguistic Drift in Lizardmen Glyphs, The Polyphenic Theory of Lizardmen Society
-[ ] EIC: Gather as much Ithilmar from throughout the Old World as possible to resell to the Eonir for a one-time profit
-[ ] KAU: Seek an exchange arrangement with another Library or a Karak's archives to be able to make copies of their corpus (Karak Vlag Archives)
-[ ] COIN: Gambler: Build a Waystone
-[ ] Eike Study: Learn Enchantment at the Colleges 1 CF
-[ ] Eike Actions: Karaz Ankor Network with Thorek, Attempt a Windherder enchantment with Egrimm, Explore the Ward of Storms with Johann
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The KAU action should probably be changed to copy another one of the Nulm libraries we currently have an agreement with. Karak Vlag can wait a bit longer and with the local cult of Verna in Nulm agitating against us we should try and get those done quickly.
 
mathymancer said:
I don't think we actually know that. It sounds sensible, but the Vlag Waystone did respond to keyphrases that Mathilde knew, so for all we know it might respond to the leyline keyphrases somehow. This is why we really need to look into the dwarf network already, we won't know what the dwarves need if we never ask.
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We didn't touch the waystone of Vlag itself - we touched a non-Karak waystone that fed into the Vlag waystone. It was still a mountain waystone, but it wasn't a Karak and it certainly wasn't Vlag itself, since Vlag itself being inaccessible was the thing we aimed to fix.
 
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