Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Also, to be clear, it now requires unanimous consent to bring anybody else on as a signatory, yes? That would mean that if Mathilde wanted to, she couldn't just recruit Bretonnia (or anybody else other than groups within existing signatories) any more. That might make recruitment effectively a 2AP action, perhaps, negotiation with the new joiner and negotiation with existing partners. Aside from wanting Bretonnia on board, I'm not opposed, but thought it worth getting confirmation of this.
We're probably fine if we just try to get Bretonnia pre-approved at this meeting. I think they're the only other major power we were planning to bring in.

EDIT: that is, assuming it does make sense for Bretonnia to be part of these accords. I haven't put much thought into the specific upsides/downsides.
 
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It probably makes more sense if we just try to get Bretonnia pre-approved. I think they're the only other major power we were planning to bring in.

If you want to create a procedure for becoming a signatory from the start, better standardise it, so that I dunno, a Norsca statelet wishing to join in a few hundred years from today wouldn't have to jump through hoops like it's Olympics.
 
You can't expect this to be set in stone for centuries.
I just wanted to address this specific point - This treaty is being made with Dwarves and Elves. The Eonir situation is a great example of the problems when you don't think about the different lifespans of the involved signatories.

No. If a nation wants to share that information, they will. If they don't, they won't.
So how does section of the treaty address this concern then?
That nobody in the Empire or Kislev knew about this until very recently is something that looms quite large in the minds of many of those present.
Have I missed something?

Edit: Perhaps my example was poorly chosen as the prior Dwarf-Elf waystone collaboration did make the Dwarven Network sole property of the Dwarves?
 
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None of the signatories except Ulthuan are between a non-signatory and the Vortex, so there is no means of anyone cutting anyone else off.



You can't make a nation a co-signatory with another nation if they don't want to be. If you try, they can just pull out of the treaty. That's why everyone has a veto, because them saying 'no' and blocking it is better than them pulling out completely and undermining the whole original purpose of it.
Thanks for the clarification. Out of interest, if someone for some reason wanted to join the Waystone Project as effectively a second class member (so providing their knowledge and resources whilst being prohibited by the treaty from certain benefits), would anybody have the right to say no to Mathilde accepting their input? I can only think it would happen if someone wanted to become a signatory and wanted to demonstrate their use to the signatories, so it's fairly unlikely, I'm just curious if it would be allowed.
 
I just wanted to address this specific point - This treaty is being made with Dwarves and Elves. The Eonir situation is a great example of the problems when you don't think about the different lifespans of the involved signatories.


So how does section of the treaty address this concern then?

Have I missed something?

One point of the treaty obligates the sides to share the location of the Waystone nodes, the other just encourages them to volunteer any secrets they feel like to build a replacement.
 
So how does section of the treaty address this concern then?

Have I missed something?

The core idea of the treaty is that everyone involved wants the world to keep existing. Things like 'Los Cabos just got Mordheim'd, we should probably do something about that so the world keeps existing' is something that can be communicated between nations even when there's no treaty forcing them to do so. The treaty establishes a line of communication through which such things can be quickly and easily communicated and understood.

Thanks for the clarification. Out of interest, if someone for some reason wanted to join the Waystone Project as effectively a second class member (so providing their knowledge and resources whilst being prohibited by the treaty from certain benefits), would anybody have the right to say no to Mathilde accepting their input? I can only think it would happen if someone wanted to become a signatory and wanted to demonstrate their use to the signatories, so it's fairly unlikely, I'm just curious if it would be allowed.

The treaty does not grant anyone new authority over the Waystone Project.
 
I'm a little disappointed that this version of the accords would tend to prevent us from changing the direction of the waystone network in response to Ulthuan picking another fight to defend Marienburg.
Under those circumstances it'd be extremely tempting to feed the energy to the dwarves.

I'm not really sure I want to commit to that.
 
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And Albion, Hatalath says with a chuckle, which is shared by all those present (but also side-eyed by some).
Well Mathilde knows the name of the island that totally doesnt exist now, but I'm sure there is still plenty of diversity among the sailor stories that use that name so she isn't really much closer to learning the truth of the situation.

More seriously, I imagine Verena is here as Goddess of Learning, which is important, but seeing as a Priest of Halétha is actually a major participant to the Waystone Project this treaty is springing from, I think it would be acceptable to replace Verena with Halétha.
personally I'd rather not snub Verena again
 
Honestly I'm inclined to just vote Yes. All this talk of sneaking in Ranald feels so-so.
I'm fine with skipping any Ranald references. While it's fun to talk about ways to cleverly sneak one in, the important thing in my mind is establishing some kind of shared forum to keep something like the Waystone Project going long term. I'm willing to vote for that, with and without Ranaldian shenanigans.
 
It does in at least five ways that I can count:
  1. Keeping the First Fleet out of the Sea of Claws where it would otherwise fight Norscans and Druchi
  2. Making deals with Norscans winch just leads to more contact with Chaos worshipers
  3. Sabotaging 'rival ports' before they can get off the ground which would make the destruction of the city by Chaos raiders all the more devastating
  4. Weakening the Empire economically and hence also militarily
  5. Serving as a potential flash point of a Empire-Asur war
The First Fleet is, and always has been, primarily a riverine fleet. And Marienburg might keep them out of the Sea of Claws, but AFAIK they don't do so consistently.
Everyone makes deals with Norscans to some degree and the Emprie owning Marienburg again won't change that.
This one is a good point. But there's no evidence they wouldn't continue to prevent the formation of a rival Imperial Port if they were to become part of the Empire again.
I tend to think Marienburg weakens the Empire much much less than most people I've seen in the thread. That said this is perhaps the largest point towards 'reconquering Marienburg is a good idea'. That said, I'm not comfortable with starting a war and killing thousands for money.
The Asur outright own part of Marienburg and reconquering the place is unlikely to leave Marienburgers with charitable feelings towards the Empire as a whole. Seeing as the last time the Asur and the Empire had a dustup it was specifically because Marienburg wanted to leave, I doubt forcing them back in is going to reduce that risk.

I'm a little disappointed that this version of the accords would tend to prevent us from changing the direction of the waystone network in response to Ulthuan picking another fight to defend Marienburg.
Under those circumstances it'd be extremely tempting to feed the energy to the dwarves.

I'm not really sure I want to commit to that.
I mean, your argument is literally 'what if we threatened to commit genocide so the Empire could be rich and conquer some people'. Like, even if we assume that the Dwarfen Network can take the load, cutting the magic off from Ulthuan forces them to back down because not backing down sinks the continent. Virtually their entire popualtion would be wiped out, not to mention the catastrophic effects on the rest of the world. There is absolutely zero way I'd be ok with that.
 
Doing so openly would be problematic, as every nation contributed two gods: the foremost god and the most applicable god. Breaking with that to bump off Sigmar or Verena would be very blatant and would make a lot of enemies. But if you can think of a sneaky way to get him in there, you absolutely can vote to do so.
I would like to sugget an additional point to the accords:

"4. All signatories will alert the others in advance of making any changes to the network's array, as such changes could inadvertently destroy or erode the greater network."

The accords already mention that signatories should not intentionally sabotage the network, but make no mention of the fact that seemingly benign changes to the network may cause harm. This point is meant to address this, not but disallowing any such change but by making the signatories inform each other before they mess around with the network. Giving the other member nations a heads-up before making changes to the network will allow the various members to prepare accordingly, such as by having magic-users on standby in case anything blows up and by giving them advance notice that any projects they have which utelize magic from the network may soon have power outages.

This edge case is totally important and definitely deserves a point in the accords. The natural place for it is between the current point 3 (which is about sharing critical information) and the current point 4 (which is about not fucking other people over by messing with the network), and therefore it should be point number 4. Additional clarifications can be added to it, but the current not-at-all-awkwardly-phrased paragraph must make it into the accords verbatim, for obvious reasons.

All signatories will aleRt
the others in advAnce
of making any chaNges
to the network's arrAy,
as such changes couLd
inadvertently destroy or eroDe
the greater network
 
I'm a little disappointed that this version of the accords would tend to prevent us from changing the direction of the waystone network in response to Ulthuan picking another fight to defend Marienburg.
Under those circumstances it'd be extremely tempting to feed the energy to the dwarves.

I'm not really sure I want to commit to that.

Preventing brinkmanship like that is a feature, not a flaw.
 
"That may not be the best price to extract from them. The means of connecting a new Waystone to the network cannot be reverse engineered - it has a security mechanism of sorts protecting it - and must be acquired from either Ulthuan or Naggaroth. There are potential workarounds for that we've been working on, but they would be inefficient and could negatively influence the area around them. It was my hope that Ulthuan could be convinced to become a part of the Project, which would involve them providing that means."

He frowns. "Negatively influence, how?"

"It would involve using rivers to transport the energies, and then spilling them out to be reabsorbed by nexuses at the mouth of rivers - in Kislev's case, Erengrad and Castle Alexandronov. The exact effect would depend on the energies in question, but considering the priority for Kislev would be removing the Chaos taint from Praag and Troll Country, it could be very bad for the affected places. It's possible we could refine the details to minimize that problem, but if we had Ulthuan's knowledge, we could build our additions directly into the existing network and not have any of those problems in the first place."
Mathilde might be a bit duplicitious here. Kislev is the part of the Network that probably needs the keyphrases the least, come to think of it. As far as I know, the keyphrases are a signal for Caledor or the archmages to get the Waystone Network to do something. Kislev's network is cutoff from Caledor. The Ice Witches can presumably get the Ancient Widow to do those things. They might even have done so in the past: when they raised Castle Alexandronov.

He mulls that over a while longer. "Very well. Wealth alone cannot restore Praag. But if we can get more than just words from them, we should."
I'm pretty sure the keyphrases Mathilde is extracting from Ulthuan are words. :V

Over the course of the discussion she manages to extract a promise from Eltharion that his 'Mistwalkers' - the elite warriors of Yvresse - will pay an unannounced visit to a number of Sarl colonies in the Kalti delta, on the north coast of Kislev. It's unclear why that group in particular has apparently earned Niedzwenka's ire, but nobody at the table has any objections to Ulthuan's might coming down hard on Norscan incursions into the Old World proper.
This seems like a reference to Blackout's Mercenary Mage Quest. Unless Blackstar was referencing something in WFB too. Or it could just be a coincidence.

The problem is that everyone on the table is wary of that sentiment concluding with 'so you should give me all your magical secrets', not least of which because everyone at the table is open to the possibility of uncovering someone else's secrets.
I thought this line was funny, but I wasn't sure if something got left out. I think the intent of the sentence is that everyone is fine with getting magical secrets from everyone else without sharing any of their own.

3. All signatories to these accords will disclose to all others the approximate location of Nexuses within their lands, as well as promptly communicate to the others should any of those nexuses be destroyed, damaged beyond their ability to repair, or captured beyond their ability to retake.
We'll find out if the Tower of Se-Athil is a nexus. I'd hope Ulthuan would tell the Empire about any nexuses (functioning or not) in the Empire that the Empire doesn't know about, but probably not happening. Especially because the only one I can think of would be in Athel Toralien. Though there might be another in the Mirror Moors.

I'm sure Boris will be happy to find out that Kislev's border with Ostland is entirely covered by fallen Nexuses. :V

Eltharion has outright said that should Ulthuan receive what he seeks through this line, he will ensure that Ulthuan will reciprocate in the form of the details on how to connect new Waystones directly to the existing network. You would hopefully be able to get more than that if the right people in Ulthuan are feeling cooperative, but Eltharion has promised that as an absolute minimum.
I mentioned this earlier, but I'm positive this means that we will have to take an action to share the tributaries with Ulthuan next turn to have the keyphrases next turn for the prototype.

This also gives us a path to get more waystone secrets out of Ulthuan. We probably will want to make a waystone Ulthuan can build on its own without Dwarf runesmiths. I doubt any would want to visit Ulthuan. We have the components to make one, and it might be easier to build than what Ulthuan remembers. At least one of the components should be. The Golden Age storage enchantment used in the original waystone used High Magic. The Collegiate one doesn't. So that should be easier to find people to make at least. Or just use materials. Ulthuan could source Dwarf machines through Tilea.

If the components we have are simpler than what Ulthuan can make, that should provide an avenue for Ulthuan sharing more of its secrets about the Waystone Network. I am curious if Ulthuan still has access to the original storage enchantment or if they don't have the capability for that anymore.

Edit: Something I just thought of. How does the Dwarf Clockwork make the Dhar that the magic is orbitted around?
 
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If he thought it would actually work, he might. But all precedent for exposed groups of magic-users in the post-Magnus world is for them to get annexed into the Colleges, not left be to continue their traditions.
The Elementalists College would like to object to this! Quietly. As long as it doesn't draw too much attention.

Does the fact this post involves a skeleton imply something about the manner in which we should undertake leaving?

Paging @Omegahugger
 
Mathilde might be a bit duplicitious here. Kislev is the part of the Network that probably needs the keyphrases the least, come to think of it. As far as I know, the keyphrases are a signal for Caledor or the archmages to get the Waystone Network to do something. Kislev's network is cutoff from Caledor. The Ice Witches can presumably get the Ancient Widow to do those things. They might even have done so in the past: when they raised Castle Alexandronov.

I'm pretty sure the keyphrases Mathilde is extracting from Ulthuan are words. :V
I think it's being sold to Boris as less Chaos in the world = more Kislev, wherever the magic is going.

Yes, which is why Boris said he wanted more than words if possible.
 
A) You mean Blackout

B) The Mistwalkers or the Norscans?
I have absolutely zero idea what you are talking about! :V

I think the reference is the attack on the Kalti delta. Right now the quest is attacking a Norscan town (Jaarpen) in the Kalti delta at the behest of an Erengrad boyar to reclaim his son. And because of some politics, a minor spoiler happened: some Asur also joined in the attack too. The quest is set before the Great War against Chaos. It could just be a coincidence though. (Edit: the protagonist is a Princess from Yvresse, and not the Asur who I mentioned joining in on the attack because of politics.

I think it's being sold to Boris as less Chaos in the world = more Kislev, wherever the magic is going.

Yes, which is why Boris said he wanted more than words if possible.
Mathilde was telling Boris that it would be a problem for Kislev, not just the rest of the Project's members. That it could remove chaos taint from Praag and Troll Country and instead dump it right at Erengrad and Castle Alexandronov. This is something Boris would not want. She didn't mention the other parts of the world.

I believe Boris was referring to Ulthuan giving treasures and other concessions to Kislev in exchange for what the Project uncovers. Words is what Boris presented as getting from Ulthuan if he didn't decide to agree with Mathilde to get waystone secrets out of Ulthuan. I was making a joke about it anyways.
 
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I don't know if this has been suggested, but treating functioning waystones and especially nexuses similar to how Geneva treats Dams and Nuclear Power stations sounds like a good idea: they can be fought over, but not destroyed.
 
I fail to see a problem with that.
Having Marienburg legally promise not to mess with their Nexus and not interfere (or better yet, support) our project has no downside.
The problem there is they can and probably will start framing any militarism on the Empire's side as an attempt to violate these accords as much as they can. There's a reason major diplomatic treaties try to ignore issues that major signatories would ignore or arguably act against- especially with what's ultimately a non-enforceable document.

It looks awful for the document and defeats the entire point if Marienburg joins and starts using the document as a shield and a) said screaming is ignored as everyone washes their hands, or b) elements within Ulthuan use this as a further excuse to offer greater backing to Marienburg. There's nothing in the world Marienburg has to offer that justifies the risk of delegitimizing this treaty and/or escalating the looming showdown the Empire clearly wants eventually.
 
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The First Fleet is, and always has been, primarily a riverine fleet. And Marienburg might keep them out of the Sea of Claws, but AFAIK they don't do so consistently.
Everyone makes deals with Norscans to some degree and the Emprie owning Marienburg again won't change that.
This one is a good point. But there's no evidence they wouldn't continue to prevent the formation of a rival Imperial Port if they were to become part of the Empire again.
I tend to think Marienburg weakens the Empire much much less than most people I've seen in the thread. That said this is perhaps the largest point towards 'reconquering Marienburg is a good idea'. That said, I'm not comfortable with starting a war and killing thousands for money.
The Asur outright own part of Marienburg and reconquering the place is unlikely to leave Marienburgers with charitable feelings towards the Empire as a whole. Seeing as the last time the Asur and the Empire had a dustup it was specifically because Marienburg wanted to leave, I doubt forcing them back in is going to reduce that risk.

  1. Primarily true but if it had access to the sea it would be more focused on sea combat, but someone is blocking the way
  2. Everyone deals with them, Marienburg deals with them more
  3. The Emperor could stop them, with his army if necessary, keeping the provinces from crippling each other is part of his job after all, it is what makes the present circumstance different from the Age of the Three Emperors
  4. I'm not arguing that we should do it for money, I'm arguing to do it in order to save lives in the long run
  5. The Asur do not care about Marienburg itself, they care about their trade and the nexus. As long as those things are in the hands of an independent Marienburg that can be at war with the Empire the elves can be dragged into said war. A victorious empire could simply guarantee them both, sure the deal would not be quite as good, but in the long run the elves would gain more by direct access to the Empire's markets rather than count on Marianburg intermediaries
 
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